Hill Climbing Primer

[Egon]

What you say is true about long levers, but where are no fulcrum within the tractor that will lift the front end. Perhaps the lever is located somewhere else. A more accurate discription of the location is wanted. Could it be under the front axle? It is so long, It must be obvious..... Nope! Not there..... Where Oh! where could it be? Where could a long lever be hidden?

There are many options to ring and pinion drive, all with the same reaction components that will tip a tractor over backwards when forward motion is inhibited.
Perhaps a jet engine powered tractor would satisfy. (Not a turbo prop ;-)

The fulcrum is; why it' hidden and disguised as the rear axle. Meanwhile that lever keeps hiding between the ring and pinion gear ratio's that play with engine's ability to rotate it's crankshaft. Call it a wound up worm hole!.

You may also note the engine is so fastened to the tractor so that when the crankshaft turns the pinion turns. Provided that the power distributing gears and shafts are all in order and turning.

 

[Marauderer]

Pinion connected to the pinion housing connected to the axle housing connected to the frame (either solid or springs). Frame goes all the way to the front bumper, which would make it a long lever???

 

[CalG]

Right back to the point.

IF the tires and wheels are not allowed to turn relative to the tractor chassis, leaving only the reaction at the ring and pinion, that long long lever, does absolutely NOTHING.

Yet if a lever is applied at the same locked tires/wheels, Over it goes ;-)

Simple

I suppose we could move up the line and say that is the piston pushing on the connecting rod that causes the turn over, for there are the "head waters" of all subsequent reactions.
But alas, the cranks on "most" tractor engines are arranged 90 degrees to the desired reaction, and this just leads to confusion for the "pinion climbing" to explain.

What is needed is direct coupled steam power. Maximum torque at minimum revs. No confusion regarding the gearbox there ;-)

Might as well describe what is really taking place ....;-)

If the load lever is longer than the pull lever, no amount of pull will tip the tractor over backwards. For it is the pull that produces the load. Despite the futile antics within the differential.

 

[square1]

That 20 ft Black Walnut really sounds like a sweet piece of lumber. What are you planning on making with it?

It's a 16' log out of a 20" DBH tree, the biggest one down in that low area and one of (40) that will be harvested along with a few oak and a couple hard maple to be sold as standing timber or saw logs, whichever makes the most sense. If the numbers are right, I'll let the pros get the timber/saw logs, but I'll still have a lot of dead ash firewood down there to get out.

Yes I know I am late to the discussion, but, I don't think I have every considered trying to move a 1000 pound log up a steep incline on the front end loader of a 25 horsepower tractor. I seriously doubt I would try that with the front end loader on a 50 horsepower tractor with a huge ballast box on the rear. That is unless I wanted to hurt myself.

That's why I started the thread. My dad flipped an Super M backwards, he was lucky to not get hurt or killed. I've never been lucky so I'm looking for all the possible tips the more experienced folks here can offer. I'm wondering if the climbing pinion gear debate will be settled before I get the logs out of the bottom land

 

[Egon]

P
Awh bolly woxks!

The complete tractor rotates on the axle that is in the center of the tire. And it's those futile antics of a turning pinion gear that make it possible.

Ever heard of recirculating ball gear box or right angle gear boxes?

 

[Marauderer]

Yes, what CalG said!!

 

[Egon]

It's a 16' log out of a 20" DBH tree, the biggest one down in that low area and one of (40) that will be harvested along with a few oak and a couple hard maple to be sold as standing timber or saw logs, whichever makes the most sense. If the numbers are right, I'll let the pros get the timber/saw logs, but I'll still have a lot of dead ash firewood down there to get out.

That's why I started the thread. My dad flipped an Super M backwards, he was lucky to not get hurt or killed. I've never been lucky so I'm looking for all the possible tips the more experienced folks here can offer. I'm wondering if the climbing pinion gear debate will be settled before I get the logs out of the bottom land

You'll be long finished and the pinion long since wore out and some folks will still be in a convinced state that backflips can't happen cause the levers are different length.

May your project go well.

 

[jojo200517]

Wonder if the guy ever got his logs up the hill successfully? I say his best solution would be to cart them up on some kind of wheel dollys either towed directly or winched from the top.

I have never got my tractor on any steep hills like that and avoid them like the plauge. I'm pretty sure torque will lift the front end regardless of what kind of drive gearing as I have had the front end of a bobcat come up going up a steep hill before. As scarry as that was it wasn't as bad as it sliding sideways in the mud a few days later on the same hill.

I have experienced the effect of the front end lifting off the ground trying to pull out a stump with a box blade on level ground, the immovable (at least for my tractor) object was hooked by the blade at ground level. Or maybe at the attacment points of the 3 point hitch arms, whichever it was the front end came up in a skinny minute when the tires gained traction. A quick application of the clutch prevented tip over and luckily I wasn't high enough to hurt the front end with the sudden drop. After that day I learned to always keep my foot over the clutch and ready to go when pulling on sketchy stuff.

Welding the axels to the rear of the machine or really freaking good park brake will result in something broken or stalled engine. All forces are contained within the machine and not acting on the ground, it'd work even if you jacked it up and took the tires off. Securely anchoring the wheel lugs in cement columns sunk in the ground and heavy enough on each side of the machine would most likely provide the ultimate in traction and zero in forward movement and with the application of enough torque thru the driveline could absolutely rotate the front of the machine around and over the rear axel, dig a pit between the columns and you could have quiet an interesting time (tho your engine wouldn't last much longer than your stomach in most likelyhood as its probably not designed to run while inverted)

 

[CalG]

P
Awh bolly woxks!

The complete tractor rotates on the axle that is in the center of the tire. And it's those futile antics of a turning pinion gear that make it possible.

Ever heard of recirculating ball gear box or right angle gear boxes?

Last comment on this "off topic"

If I wish to calculate the "flipping over" lever arm length on the Fordson, which has large diameter, direction reversing bull gears inside the rear end, do I measure the length of the pinion shaft to the front of crankshaft? Or is there some other measured length that is more direct? The E27n is not very powerful, something less thgan 30HP I'm sure, and it's a Very heavy tractor with cast iron front wheels. Even the radiator top tank is cast iron and having removed it several times in the past 35 years, I know it is VERY heavy. I'm just wondering how to sum up the leverage ratio so I won't exceed the "flipping point". I have had the front end clawing air on a number of occassions. It seemed like it was pretty controllable, but I really should have a better idea of where the leverage is measured.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/1G5g_HwgD24/hqdefault.jpg

da ja vu
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/215952-preventing-tractor-back-flip.html

 

[JWR]

That sounds like a 30 degree slope. I wouldn't want to be dragging anything that might induce my tractor to turn over backward on that steep of a slope. That slope is already getting pretty hairy just driving the tractor up. Loading into the FEL and carrying them up might be your best solution on this. That way gravity is your friend by putting more weight on the front to keep it down and give you more traction. You may even find that with a log on the front that you can also drag up a small tree at the same time but do be watchful of a hang up that might pull you over back ward.
I think PHpaul's idea is safest. If you don't have a winch, invest in a snatch block if you have something to hook it to at the top

Correction guys: 25' rise over 75' travel is a 33% slope NOT a 33 DEGREE slope. You cannot climb a 30 degree slope at all. But that's just a terminology point.

I don't know how much of this you have to do but I suggest adapting a grapple fork to your loader, replacing the bucket. Best way to do that is to put skid steer adapter plates on the loader. I'm assuming you have a hydraulic remote to use for the grapple ? Cut the logs to whatever weight you can carry and run up that hill with them. A 30% slope is not really all that steep. I operate a lot on slopes a little steeper (like 40% , measured steepness) in WV. The more I think about it -- I hate to say this but "size matters." Your 25 horse Ford is not the best tool for that job.