Building Inspector vs. Pole Barn

[NoTrespassing]

No building permits required here. Only permit required is if you replace your septic, I guess they want to make sure it runs down hill and you are at the bottom.

Permits are required in just about all the townships around us so I would think it will be only a matter of time.

Same rules here. I checked before I bought the land. My neighbor added on about 1000 sq ft more than doubling his living space and has had no increase in taxes after 5 or 6 years. I guess they don't even know he added on.

 

[rturner]

I submitted for a building permit two weeks ago for a pole barn that is going up in May. It was designed and will be built by CHA Pole Barns from PA. Well, the building inspector had some problems with the plans, listed below with my comments:

1) need roof truss engineering specs with seal of certification

OK, fair enough

2) need specs on species and types of wood used for framing, roof sheathing, and siding

OK, fine, can do, though seems overkill since lumber types were already specified

3) need to add wall diagonal bracing to corner posts to prevent shear

I would think poles set 42" in the ground would be more than enough to resist shear???

4) need to notch 2x12 wall headers into posts, and headers should be laminated together

I have always seen them bolted or spiked onto side of poles (so outer header is inline with wall girts). Not even sure there's enough meat on a 4x6 to notch in double 2x12 headers.

5) need registered engineer to sign off on 16" cookie used for footing in my soil conditions

Great, will cost me $200-250 just to have someone tell me what we already know


I have asked CHA to provide what info they can on items 1-4, and I will handle the footing issue with a local engineer. But I was wondering if anyone else has run into issues like this for pole barns? I thought the construction and design was simple enough to be idiot proof.

For example, item 3 seems odd to me. There are dozens of pole barns along the road to my house, and I am sure I've never seen diagonal braces. The main difference is that those properties are zoned agricultural and the buildings are for agricultural use, so they probably didn't have to mess with permits. My land is also zoned agricultural, but in a residential area and I can't claim agricultural use.

3) Depends on 3 second wind gust in your area, wall height, and length of wall. Post size influences the need for that too.
4) knee jerk reaction to folks using common nails and a nail gun on truss supports instead of ring shank nails.
5) undersized footers are the biggest mistake in the industry. If your building is a 24x32 a 16x5 cookie will work unless your soil bearing capacity is really bad or your snow load is massive. The just don't work well on bigger barns. Barns settle all the time due to undersized footers.


We had a county in Virginia want 7' of post embedment for a 20' eave height monitor barn. Had to pay an engineer to get around that. Our engineer doesn't agree with carriage bolting truss supports ever. Not with the grain of the wood. He recommends ring shank nails or screws. then a bearing block carriage bolted below the truss support since the bearing block isn't horizontal.

 

[300UGUY]

I submitted for a building permit two weeks ago for a pole barn that is going up in May. It was designed and will be built by CHA Pole Barns from PA. Well, the building inspector had some problems with the plans, listed below with my comments:

1) need roof truss engineering specs with seal of certification

OK, fair enough

2) need specs on species and types of wood used for framing, roof sheathing, and siding

OK, fine, can do, though seems overkill since lumber types were already specified

3) need to add wall diagonal bracing to corner posts to prevent shear

I would think poles set 42" in the ground would be more than enough to resist shear???

4) need to notch 2x12 wall headers into posts, and headers should be laminated together

I have always seen them bolted or spiked onto side of poles (so outer header is inline with wall girts). Not even sure there's enough meat on a 4x6 to notch in double 2x12 headers.

5) need registered engineer to sign off on 16" cookie used for footing in my soil conditions

Great, will cost me $200-250 just to have someone tell me what we already know


I have asked CHA to provide what info they can on items 1-4, and I will handle the footing issue with a local engineer. But I was wondering if anyone else has run into issues like this for pole barns? I thought the construction and design was simple enough to be idiot proof.

For example, item 3 seems odd to me. There are dozens of pole barns along the road to my house, and I am sure I've never seen diagonal braces. The main difference is that those properties are zoned agricultural and the buildings are for agricultural use, so they probably didn't have to mess with permits. My land is also zoned agricultural, but in a residential area and I can't claim agricultural use.

I built a 40x40x12 barn 25 years ago. No permit, just a land use permit that cost $20.

I carridge bolted all the headers onto the posts. And they all have a couple of ring shank nails in them, I nailed it up, then drilled for the bolts.
I didn't use a cookie, just some rocks in the bottom of the hole. I got lucky, it hasn't settled, but a neighbor's did. The cookies are better, and bigger is better.
We always had engineered trusses here, it really isn't worth making your own.
I think the diagonal bracing is a good idea. Mine has it on all 4 corners.

YMMV, Have a good one.

 

[grsthegreat]

I submitted for a building permit two weeks ago for a pole barn that is going up in May. It was designed and will be built by CHA Pole Barns from PA. Well, the building inspector had some problems with the plans, listed below with my comments:

1) need roof truss engineering specs with seal of certification

OK, fair enough

2) need specs on species and types of wood used for framing, roof sheathing, and siding

OK, fine, can do, though seems overkill since lumber types were already specified

3) need to add wall diagonal bracing to corner posts to prevent shear

I would think poles set 42" in the ground would be more than enough to resist shear???

4) need to notch 2x12 wall headers into posts, and headers should be laminated together

I have always seen them bolted or spiked onto side of poles (so outer header is inline with wall girts). Not even sure there's enough meat on a 4x6 to notch in double 2x12 headers.

5) need registered engineer to sign off on 16" cookie used for footing in my soil conditions

Great, will cost me $200-250 just to have someone tell me what we already know


I have asked CHA to provide what info they can on items 1-4, and I will handle the footing issue with a local engineer. But I was wondering if anyone else has run into issues like this for pole barns? I thought the construction and design was simple enough to be idiot proof.

For example, item 3 seems odd to me. There are dozens of pole barns along the road to my house, and I am sure I've never seen diagonal braces. The main difference is that those properties are zoned agricultural and the buildings are for agricultural use, so they probably didn't have to mess with permits. My land is also zoned agricultural, but in a residential area and I can't claim agricultural use.

here in idaho we had to do #1 but not #2.
As for #3, they make metal straps that are continuous that go on before 2x6 wall stringers. cost next to nothing.

#4 - we only bolt them on, no notching

#5 no engineering needed as long as we use the basic state footing guide....36" diameter x 4' deep at each post. I found with my house when i built it, the engineering costs actually decreased my concrete requirements. He saved me money.

 

[brokenknee]

Same rules here. I checked before I bought the land. My neighbor added on about 1000 sq ft more than doubling his living space and has had no increase in taxes after 5 or 6 years. I guess they don't even know he added on.

I never even checked before purchasing, just assumed I needed them. Last spring called added a 400 square foot addition. Builder said I didn't need a permit, called both the township and county to verify he was correct. As far as taxes on the addition; even though I live on forty acres and the house is located were you can not see it from any road, every body knows everything that goes on. My neighbors sister in law is the county tax assessor so I would assume it will only be a matter of time before the taxes catch up to me.

 

[Tollster]

They use satellite surveillance in the county court house to look for new construction in the county I reside, I saw it first hand while I awaited to fight my unfair assessment, having to pay an appraiser , then go against the board, only to have them tell me that they still have to charge me 10% more than the property was appraised at..

Go figure that out?

 

[Rustyiron]

It's getting so that you never really own your property.
1. In most places, you are controlled what they let you do with/on it.
2.The prop. tax never ends and never go's down. The mortgage at least will end!

 

[s219]

Thanks for all the comments -- if nothing else, it makes me feel better to hear some other stories and experience!

I got in touch with an engineer today regarding footings and soil, and hope to hear back tomorrow with a cost for his analysis. I might ask him to weigh in on the method for attaching headers to poles, as I think notching will mess up the general procedure CHA uses. Will be moving ahead with site grading later this week. Hopefully I can get revisions to drawings fairly quick and go back to the building inspector for re-evaluation.

 

[murphy1244]

It's getting so that you never really own your property.
1. In most places, you are controlled what they let you do with/on it.
2.The prop. tax never ends and never go's down. The mortgage at least will end!

I call it paying my yearly Ransom.

 

[murphy1244]

It's getting so that you never really own your property.
1. In most places, you are controlled what they let you do with/on it.
2.The prop. tax never ends and never go's down. The mortgage at least will end!

I call it paying my yearly Ransom.

 

[JDgreen227]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but here in mid-Michigan townships are so desperate for funds (GREEDY) they want you pay for a permit for just about anything. In my area if you want to replace a window in your house, and it is anything BUT the exact same size as the one you are replacing, a building permit is required. ANY alteration to ANY structure requires a building permit. It's simply a money grab.

 

[Soundguy]

some places do permits for fencing and gates. ugh...

 

[vtsnowedin]

As an aside a few summers ago a thunder shower went through WRJ. Vt and hit a pole barn just south of the VA. The building was about 40 ft.X100 ft and closed in on the ends and the long north wall with the south wall a series of open bays for parking equipment. The wind got under the building and sucked it up out of the ground poles and all and set in over on its long side pretty much intact. Of course their was no way to pick it back up so it had to be demolished and rebuilt but I thought that it holding together so well spoke well of both the designer and the builder. Snow loads of fifty pounds per square foot and the 50 mph. wind pressure on a hundred wide by twenty foot high wall both need to be allowed for and need a lot of diagonal bracing.

 

[EddieWalker]

Code is there for a reason. Usually it's because of failure of a structure, and usually it's something that happens over and over again. Every building that is built to code meets a minimum standard. That's not saying it could be better, it's just saying that's the weakest you can built the building with a good chance of it surviving through most weather conditions.

3) Diagonal bracing is a huge thing that gets missed by a lot of hobby builders. Adding that to each outside corner will do more to stiffen your building then anything else. It's cheap, easy and very effective. OSB or plywood also work as diagonal bracing, but metal panels do not. In the buildings I've been involved with, it was on the inside of the framing so the metal can go on over the purlins without any notching.

4) Notching is going to give you the most strength you can get. In every case, it is always best to rest your loads on top of structure. Any time you span an open area, you have a weak spot. In theory, a house or building should stand without a single fastener because every piece of lumber is on top of another piece of lumber. You never want to hang or attach to the side of anything if you can help it. If you do, you need metal brackets designed specifically for that purpose. Like joist hangers. Bolts used to be alright, but it's been proven that the wood splits where the bolt hole is because all the weight is carried by that spot on the lumber, and not carried through to the entire board.

Notch your posts and then bolt them in place. Bolts are great for keeping them there, but not for carrying the load.

You didn't specify on the notching, but in some areas you only have to notch for the first 2x12 and the second one laminated to it can also act as a purlin. Other areas wont let you do this and you still need to add another board to it for your purlins. I would make sure I knew what my inspector wanted before I started.

With every header, adding half inch plywood between them and gluing them together with liquid nails, or something similar, increases the overall strength tremendously.

I wouldn't use 4x6 for a building. I've seen too many of them turn and twist after a few years. The only thing that seems to remain straight are 6x6's.


Eddie

 

[Western]

Agree with Eddies analogy on notched post, that takes the "sheer" pressure for the bolts out of the equation.

 

[Soundguy]

I wouldn't use 4x6 for a building. I've seen too many of them turn and twist after a few years. The only thing that seems to remain straight are 6x6's.


Eddie

for piles I like 6x6.. but for stiffeners and for side and interior walls.. like walling in horse stalls. I have had no issues using 4x6's

 

[teejk]

I'll just add a caution to anybody. If a permit and/or inspection is required on ANYTHING, do what they ask and get the required sign-offs. I was the 4th owner of a relatively new house (mid 80's) in NY. Owner 1, 2, or 3 finished out the walkout basement. Besides that, we bought the house as a 4 BR but learned on sale that the septic was only sized as a 3 BR. When it came time for to sell, all of a sudden the town required the realtors to search for required permits on the property as listed. Cost me $10,000 to bring the property up to "TODAY's" code because who ever did the work didn't pull the required permits. Cost me more because I had to list it as a 3 BR. Really funny in that the agent that we worked with to sell it was the same person that we used when we bought it. She was truly offended when I fired her...she didn't know why. I tried to appeal to the town and when I got that smug little smirk from the town minion telling me that it was my problem, it was all I could do to avoid going over the desk and choking him with his neck-tie that was way too short to get to his belt over his fat gut. Now on the bright side, I managed to sell the property at only a $60,000 loss. Worth every dime to escape New York state.

 

[orezok]

Where I live we get hit with a double wammy on building code. We have to design for 90 MPH desert winds (equal to category 1 hurricane) and earthquake. The biggest challenge for my engineer was the uplift calculation. A peaked roof basically becomes a wing shape. My footings are huge and are based more on sheer weight than soil friction.

Then since there have been two 7.0+ earthquakes in this region in the last 20 years, everything is a shear wall.


But, living in the desert is awesome!

 

[s219]

Latest news:

I spoke with the good folks at CHA Pole Barns this afternoon, and they are willing to make design changes and beef up specs to satisfy the inspector. Sounds like they have learned to willingly accomodate this kind of thing over the years. Since it will only make the building better (see great points by Eddie) this works out good in the end.

Still waiting for a price from an engineer to analyze footings for our soil type, as requested by inspector.

I did learn that I might have been able to skip the whole permit application process since my land is zoned agricultural, if I could claim legitimate "farm use". However, I ran my planned uses by another county official (one with no dog in the fight) and they determined that I won't qualify as "farm use" just by parking a tractor in the barn and keeping chickens/ducks on the property in the future. That phone call potentially opened up another can of worms, as the county is in the midst of revising private property poultry regulations. They wanted my name and phone number just in case they need to tell me more about what I can and can't do on my land in the future.....

 

[vabiker23518]

Latest news:

I spoke with the good folks at CHA Pole Barns this afternoon, and they are willing to make design changes and beef up specs to satisfy the inspector. Sounds like they have learned to willingly accomodate this kind of thing over the years. Since it will only make the building better (see great points by Eddie) this works out good in the end.

Still waiting for a price from an engineer to analyze footings for our soil type, as requested by inspector.

I did learn that I might have been able to skip the whole permit application process since my land is zoned agricultural, if I could claim legitimate "farm use". However, I ran my planned uses by another county official (one with no dog in the fight) and they determined that I won't qualify as "farm use" just by parking a tractor in the barn and keeping chickens/ducks on the property in the future. That phone call potentially opened up another can of worms, as the county is in the midst of revising private property poultry regulations. They wanted my name and phone number just in case they need to tell me more about what I can and can't do on my land in the future.....

What county in VA are you in? Hopefully NOT Lunenburg!