Do you get what you pay for with cylinders?

[MGH PA]

First off, I want to thank everyone here for the help/advice last year for the log splitter build for our cabin (thread here). That splitter came out excellent, and we ended up using it quite a bit this fall splitting some very large pieces and it handled them very well (ended up with a 41" split capacity with a lifter arm and all).

The manufacturing teacher at our school who built that one (I just speced the parts) is looking to build another with this students (this will be their 6th or 7th), and so my father and I are going to spec one for our own use (it's time...we're tired of hand splitting). It will be a much more scaled build compared to last years, and I'm thinking it will essentially be a simple 26" capacity (24" Cylinder), plate into fixed wedge, 16GPM Haldex, 8-10HP recoil start.

I'm wanting to go with a 4" cylinder and preferably a 2" rod. Most 4" cylinders that are in the $200-$300 are 1.5"-1.75". I want a 2" for the extra strength and to aid a little in return speed. My question is this. Split-Ez has a 24" cylinder with a 2" rod for $267 shipped. Northern has a Prince 24" with a 2" (4.5" bore) for almost $200 more. I suppose two question can be derived here. Do I need the 2" shaft with such a short stroke? If I do, am I better paying more for the Prince than the no-name brand on Split-Ez?

 

[LD1]

The 2" rod isn't necessary, but you do need to make sure you have a solid method of keeping the push plate secure with the beam.

I have also often wondered why they don't commonly make these cylinders with even larger rods. Like a 3" rod on a 4" cyl?? Not for strength, but speed.

But to answer the title question, yes you get what you pay for. The prince will likely last twice as long. But for a splitter that only sees ocassional use, the cheaper ones will last 10years plus. So is it worth it??? You be the judge.

But in an Indusrtial setting, where a cylinder may cycle several tiles an hour, 24/7/365, it is post definatally worth paying the premium for a quality prince, parker, Milwaukee, etc.

 

[oldnslo]

For reference the NFPA Tie Rod cylinder standard for a 4" bore cylinder is 1 3/4" rod.

 

[J_J]

You might take a look at these guys. They can also make you any type cyl you want.

Hydraulic Cylinders | Bailey Hydraulics | Hydraulic Supplier

Hydraulic Cylinder Videos | Bailey Hydraulics

 

[MGH PA]

You might take a look at these guys. They can also make you any type cyl you want.

Hydraulic Cylinders | Bailey Hydraulics | Hydraulic Supplier

Hydraulic Cylinder Videos | Bailey Hydraulics

Thanks. What is the quality level of Chief cylinders? They have a good price on a 2" rod 24"/4" on there.

 

[J_J]

Chief® and Maxim® cylinders are registered brands of Bailey

They make them in-house.

http://baileynet.com/hydraulics/bailey_hydraulic_cylinders_corporate_profile/

Limited Warranty:

Products manufactured by Bailey for a period of one (1) year from the date of purchase

 

[lostcause]

I have also often wondered why they don't commonly make these cylinders with even larger rods. Like a 3" rod on a 4" cyl?? Not for strength, but speed.

i'd guess the log splitter market (though reasonably large) might be the only use for one of these. a rod that large would essentially make the cylinder a single acting unit. the loss of diameter on the back side would mean you could only use it where you have minimal resistance on the backstroke, like a splitter. there are probably other uses, but it would be limited.

i know time is money, but with me i'm a single man splitting operation, so the return speed is usually irrelevant. between picking up the split pieces and getting the next round, the cylinder has usually returned. i also only split 16" so i built my splitter with an 18" cylinder. the 24" would be a lot of wasted time if i had to take up 8" every piece. i'm running a 3 1/2"x18" on a 5~6 gpm single stage pump, so i'm the exception to the rule around here. what works for me wouldn't interest most people.

 

[J_J]

Do you get what you pay for?

That question is debatable.

Most times, but is no guarantee it will happen every time.

Two people buying the same brand, one cyl might last 2 to 15 years, and the other start leaking in six months.

You might read the warranty carefully for the cyl you are lookig at, and then base your decision on price.

Name brands are supposed to be good, but that is not to say that a new start company making hyd cyl can't make a good cyl.

If there was a known bad cyl brand out there, someone would know about it.

I have a new cyl with the shaft extended that was left outside to the elements, and the shaft is rusted badly. To me that shows bad quality, but you would not know that until you had seen it or someone told you about it.

There are cyl out there 40 yr + old and still perform good to perfect.

Most people would base the selection on what it can do and price. No one is going to advertise a bad cyl.

wdchyd can probably tell you what you want to know about cyl.

 

[MGH PA]

Thanks, everyone. I think I'm going to give Chief a shot. I want a bigger diameter rod, but I don't really want to pay almost $500 for the Prince for the weekend warrior use it will see.

 

[LD1]

I think surplus center.com has cylinders specifically for logsplitters. Not sure if they have the larger rod though

 

[the old grind]

Not to hijack, but do single stage pumps belong on splitters anymore? I've come to believe that they're the key to fast cycle times, lower hp requirements, and to some extent choice of cylinder, ie: so speed vs power isn't the same trade-off it is with a single stage pump. All hype, or what??

OP didn't mention splitting in both directions. Seems a two-way splitter could sacrifice quite a bit of power on retract, depending on rod diameter. ... OK that's getting OT. (sorry!)

 

[muddstopper]

Not to hijack, but do single stage pumps belong on splitters anymore? I've come to believe that they're the key to fast cycle times, lower hp requirements, and to some extent choice of cylinder, ie: so speed vs power isn't the same trade-off it is with a single stage pump. All hype, or what??

OP didn't mention splitting in both directions. Seems a two-way splitter could sacrifice quite a bit of power on retract, depending on rod diameter. ... OK that's getting OT. (sorry!)

I think it might be hard to find a factory made splitter with a single stage pump any more. Most of the manufacturers want to supply big tonnage numbers ,but keep the price of the splitter down low enough that they can sell it. Big problem with single stage pumps is its takes lots of hp to get the tonnage and speed and that cost money. I have built several splitters using single stage pumps. These splitters are usually built with scrap yard parts and on the cheap. Who needs a 25hp motor on a wood splitter? Well, If I find a good motor and pump cheap, then that is what I will use. My splitter might not be any faster, or have any more power than a factory splitter with a small engine and 2 stage pump, but I didnt pay $1000 for it either. I might pay the price in fuel consumption, but I dont use the splitter every day or split 100"s of cords of wood each year either, so I dont usually worry to much about fuel cost.

As for cylinders, Northern does have a 5x24x2in rod for around $239. This is the cylinder I am currently using. Its their house brand, but It seems to be doing all I ask of it. I like my cylinders just like I like my engines, big with lots of Umph!!! I am using a 28gpm 2stage pump as the 14gpm single stage I had was a bit slow for that size cylinder.

 

[LD1]

2 stage is where its at for splitting. Because in my experience, it only kicks to the second stage maybe 25% of the time. The rest of the time, it is in fast mode.

With a single stage, that isn't an option. So you have to size the motor according to max pressure, even though most of the time you require under 1000psi.

So if you are going to up size motors and sacrifice fuel, up size the 2stage pump...

 

[wdchyd]

I have also often wondered why they don't commonly make these cylinders with even larger rods. Like a 3" rod on a 4" cyl?? Not for strength, but speed.

.

The reason you don't find big hyd rods is the displacement ratio relates to increased return stroke volume in gpm...... For example,if the cyl displacement ratio is 2:1 then the return gpm that runs through the valve will be twice the output of the pump......if the valve core is not rated at the extreme gpm's then the two stage pump will sense the pressure drop and will cut back to the single stage or bog down the engine and will stall

On a typical installation of a log splitter with a large displacement ratio they usually use a single-pilot operated check valve mounted on a tee at a large port at the tail of the cylinder ( with a return line back to tank)..then they connect a pilot line to the retract port to sense the return pressure.......this method will allow most of the return oil to by-pass the main control valve instead of forcing it in through the valve core

 

[wdchyd]

I have a new cyl with the shaft extended that was left outside to the elements, and the shaft is rusted badly. To me that shows bad quality, but you would not know that until you had seen it or someone told you about it.

JJ, if you look at the industrial hard chrome plating with a microscope you will see that the chrome is actually porous......it's kinda like a stack of a billion sewing needles squashed down to .0005 to .001

The chrome plating actually gets it's rust prevention from running it in and out bathing the chrome in hyd oil.........even very expensive CAT and John Deere hyd rods suffer the same fate of corrosion under the chrome plating when idle for any length of time

use any kind of grease or oil spray to coat any exposed chrome when planning a seasonal layover

 

[lostcause]

I think it might be hard to find a factory made splitter with a single stage pump any more. Most of the manufacturers want to supply big tonnage numbers ,but keep the price of the splitter down low enough that they can sell it. Big problem with single stage pumps is its takes lots of hp to get the tonnage and speed and that cost money. I have built several splitters using single stage pumps. These splitters are usually built with scrap yard parts and on the cheap. Who needs a 25hp motor on a wood splitter? Well, If I find a good motor and pump cheap, then that is what I will use. My splitter might not be any faster, or have any more power than a factory splitter with a small engine and 2 stage pump, but I didnt pay $1000 for it either. I might pay the price in fuel consumption, but I dont use the splitter every day or split 100"s of cords of wood each year either, so I dont usually worry to much about fuel cost.

As for cylinders, Northern does have a 5x24x2in rod for around $239. This is the cylinder I am currently using. Its their house brand, but It seems to be doing all I ask of it. I like my cylinders just like I like my engines, big with lots of Umph!!! I am using a 28gpm 2stage pump as the 14gpm single stage I had was a bit slow for that size cylinder.

bingo. give this man a cigar. i power my little 3 1/2 x 18 splitter with a 24hp yanmar 3 cyl diesel and a 5-6 gpm single stage pump. in short order, i run it off my tractor's hydraulics. i built my splitter with a new cylinder, valve, hoses & fittings, but nearly all the steel was surplus / scrap cutoffs. i've got somewhere in the ballpark of $500 in mine (including the refinements and paint job i did this fall) and for my use it was a way better deal than a dedicated splitter. also, i'm sorry to digress and lead this off topic any more.

 

[MGH PA]

Alright, I didn't want to start another thread, so I will build off this.

Using this website to figure out line sizing to determine what valve I get (1/2" working vs 3/4" working), I'm having a little trouble understanding what velocity to use to determine the requirements. If I'm using a 16gpm 2-stage that runs a 3.5gpm @ 2500psi, will it be running at 16gpm (or close to it) for the return line, and the 3.5GPM initially on the suction? Just trying to think about how what sizes I will need for all four lines.

 

[J_J]

Try this nomograph .

Interactive Nomogram for Sizing Hydraulic Hoses

 

[MGH PA]

Try this nomograph .

Interactive Nomogram for Sizing Hydraulic Hoses

Yep, that's the one I'm using. I just don't know when to move the point on the right to 16gpm, and when to move it to ~3.5GPM. Usually, it's going to be low flow/high pressure on the suction, and high flow/low pressure on the return, right? What about figuring out the working lines? Are they under high pressure or low pressure most of the time?

 

[J_J]

Suction is a vacuum figure, but the hose should be strong enough not to collapse, and match the suction port size or larger.

Working hose only has pressure when working a load or maxing out the cyl, and should be rated higher than the pump pressure. Always use high pressure hose.

Your tractor hyd is probably not rated over 3000 psi.

Return lines usually have no pressure or little pressure, and use the same hose as the pressure hose.