Generators and CO

[3930dave]

Carbon Monoxide is a risk with any internal combustion engine. Unfortunately there were 2 fatalitites in the province yesterday, from a generator.

From the article, it sounds like the CO may have leaked through a solid wall, during the day, with multiple people in the home. It's hard to exaggerate how dangerous CO is. Rgds, D.

Toronto ice storm: Generator fumes kill Newcastle man, mother

Deadly carbon monoxide from a gas-powered electrical generator somehow entered their home from the garage, police say.

Two people are dead after carbon monoxide fumes from a gas-powered generator seeped into their Newcastle home on Monday afternoon.

Emergency services responded to the house after several inhabitants reported feeling ill about 3:30 p.m.

The generator, which was providing electricity for heating during ice storm power outages, was running in a garage attached to the house.

A 52-year-old man and his 72-year-old mother were rushed to Lakeridge Health Bowmanville but did not survive.

Durham Regional Police said the carbon monoxide managed to seep into the house even though there was no direct access to the garage from the home.

Toronto ice storm: Generator fumes kill Newcastle man, mother | Toronto Star

 

[DarkBlack]

Running a generator in an attached garage is a HUGE NO-NO.

 

[rmorey]

According to the Mayor of Toronto this morning, over 100 cases of Carbon Monoxide poisoning have been reported so far. Caused by running generators in the garage, as well as BBQ's in the livingroom.

ARE YOU KDDING ME! :shocked:

 

[3930dave]

Running a generator in an attached garage is a HUGE NO-NO.

Many people will do it, rather than stick the generator out in the elements. (Not disagreeing with you).

All it can take is a major shift in prevailing winds (as we had here, with this last major weather system) to drive exhaust back into a garage - even in a "solid wall" garage with the door open, it can be fatal.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

According to the Mayor of Toronto this morning, over 100 cases of Carbon Monoxide poisoning have been reported so far. Caused by running generators in the garage, as well as BBQ's in the livingroom.

ARE YOU KDDING ME! :shocked:

Saw the same situation with BBQs in '98. General Science knowledge amongst the public obviously hasn't increased enough since then.

Rgds, D.

 

[kenmac]

It's bad but, It happens every year. I have no idea why people don't use common sense when using generators. If you're going to use a generator, leave it outside or a shed that isn't attached to a home..Another good practice is, Having your fossil burning furnace/ heater/ boiler , etc, inspected each year B-4 using it.

 

[grsthegreat]

holly cow batman....who would ever even think of letting an engine run indoors. I cant believe some people.

Personally, i have a CO detector on every floor of my house. I also install at least one per floor on every house i wire...have for quite some time.

Cheap insurance.

 

[oldballs]

I had to use my Mr Heater (kerosene) to thaw the ice off my Kubota the other day. Brought it into the attached garage and ran the heater for an hour with the doorway open to the outside. Even then, I didn't like the possibilities as I mopped up the water. Sure wish I had a shed to store it in out of the weather.

 

[DeereMann]

It makes you wonder whether the general public should have access to some of this equipment. I mean, would they start up their lawnmowers & leave 'em run in the garage unattended?

Wind patterns can hold exhaust gas in a garage a long time, & obviously push against house walls as well. Combustion has to take place well away from any garage.

I get nervous even when piping exhaust out from an engine running in the barn. Can have exhaust leaks anywhere & not know it until it's too late. I miminize this whenever I can and move the engine outside at the earliest opportunity.

 

[footer200]

This happened right by where I live, it is unbelievable that this stuff happens. It reminds me of the people that take a drive shaft out to change a u-joint at home and the vehicle ends up running them over.

 

[3930dave]

In recent Winters, there have been fatalities caused by people leaving cars running in attached garages.

Either somebody started the car, intending to leave, then forgot they had it running, or somebody coming home late at night, and forgot to shut the car off.

Truth can be stranger than fiction. I remember one plant I worked at in Toronto. Not cold weather, but I recall getting to work one day, and seeing one of the guys in another department had left a car running, with the keys locked in it. Seemed weird, so I let in-house security know.

When I went outside at lunch, this Oldsmobile was still running. I went back in, and tracked down Frank myself - turns out Security had contacted him, but he thought somebody was pulling his leg ! Crazy thing was, the guy was cold sober !

Hard to believe, but somebody can forget that a car is running, even inside a residential garage.

Rgds, D.

 

[RoyJackson]

As far as the generators...as sad as it is, I do understand why people would run one in a secure area (such as an attached garage). We all know in times of power outages, generators are a valuable commodity, and people will steal them.
Not all of us have good neighbors or a secure place to run a genny outside.
It's a sad tale, no doubt...but I won't condemn people for running gennys without knowing the whole situation.

 

[buickanddeere]

I used to live live in NewCastle on Lillian Cres. Nice little bedroom community for Toronto working people. Wish I could have brought that house to the farm.
If the education system required a passing grade in physics, chemistry and biology. I would like to imagine there would be fewer people being so "unaware" to operate an combustion engine indoors.
Many of those CO poisoning are cold people looking for cheap heat by burning charcoal indoors.

It's been 124 months since the last multi-day blackout in Ontario. If all these short sighted people had saved a dollar a week since then. They could have bought generators with the savings. Sorry but I have zero sympathy for those shivering in the dark and cold.

 

[3930dave]

As far as the generators...as sad as it is, I do understand why people would run one in a secure area (such as an attached garage). We all know in times of power outages, generators are a valuable commodity, and people will steal them.
Not all of us have good neighbors or a secure place to run a genny outside.
It's a sad tale, no doubt...but I won't condemn people for running gennys without knowing the whole situation.

Agreed Roy, theft is an understandable concern.

After driving through an area with heavy ice damage yesterday, that is part of why this news report struck me. Right or not, I tend to think of CO risk firstly as a scenario like a faulty heat exchanger on a furnace, with an entire household going to sleep at night and well, .... not waking up.

That these deaths occurred during the day, and with multiple people around (not somebody alone in a house, lying down for a nap), highlighted to me how deceptively dangerous CO is. Just wanted to post this, as a reminder to us all.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

I used to live live in NewCastle on Lillian Cres. Nice little bedroom community for Toronto working people. Wish I could have brought that house to the farm.
If the education system required a passing grade in physics, chemistry and biology. I would like to imagine there would be fewer people being so "unaware" to operate an combustion engine indoors.
Many of those CO poisoning are cold people looking for cheap heat by burning charcoal indoors.

It's been 124 months since the last multi-day blackout in Ontario. If all these short sighted people had saved a dollar a week since then. They could have bought generators with the savings. Sorry but I have zero sympathy for those shivering in the dark and cold.

Think, AND save money, AND plan ahead, AND take action ?

That sequence makes sense to many TBN'ers, and most of my close friends. The general public today probably falls outside of that demographic, unfortunately.

Rgds, D.

 

[ericher69]

Most CO alarms will only do so at 300-600 ppm after an hours worth of saturation. I need to wear an SCBA at 25ppm front door reading...

 

[3930dave]

Most CO alarms will only do so at 300-600 ppm after an hours worth of saturation. I need to wear an SCBA at 25ppm front door reading...

Other than knowing that 0ppm is a good goal, I need to learn more about exposure levels.

From wikipedia:

Concentrations as low as 667 ppm may cause up to 50% of the body's hemoglobin to convert to carboxyhemoglobin.[23] A level of 50% carboxyhemoglobin may result in seizure, coma, and fatality. In the United States, the OSHA limits long-term workplace exposure levels above 50 ppm.[24] Within short time scales, carbon monoxide absorption is cumulative, since the half-life is about 5 h in fresh air

Carbon monoxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Recommended World Health Organisation (WHO) Air Quality guidelines for Europe 2000

The following guideline values (ppm values rounded) and periods of time-weighted average exposures have been determined in such a way that the carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) level of 2.5% is not exceeded, even when a normal subject engages in light or moderate exercise:

100 mg/m3 (87 ppm) for 15 min
60 mg/m3 (52 ppm) for 30 min
30 mg/m3 (26 ppm) for 1 h
10 mg/m3 (9 ppm) for 8 h


Carbon monoxide poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Noted:

1) Persistence (half-life) is longer than I would have guessed - explains the toxicity, in part.

2) Check that through-wall direct vent furnace exhausts aren't blocked by drifting snow. Worth mentioning in general, but esp. for areas that are getting major snow, when they normally don't.

3) Do I understand your comment correctly ericher ? Are you saying that home type CO monitors are designed to trip at the high end of exposure level ? I'm thinking that the goal here is to not trip an alarm company alarm, for just a piece of burnt toast.

Rgds, D.

 

[brain55]

Whenever this topic comes up I feel compelled to tell my story. About 11 years ago now, it was a chilly afternoon and I was working in my mobile shop/trailer, my engine driven air compressor was inside the trailer with the exhaust piped out. I don't remember what I was working on, but I had the compressor running. I started to feel light headed so I went outside and sat down. I have no idea how long I was unconscious, but when I came to, I realized that at some point I had pissed myself. I truly have no concept of how long I may have been out. Apparently that was not my day to go.

Brian

 

[MikePA]

Saw the same situation with BBQs in '98. General Science knowledge amongst the public obviously hasn't increased enough since then.

No offense to anyone, but people do not need General Science knowledge, all they need to do is read, or even look at, the first few pages of their generator Owner's Manual. In this situation, they probably thought since the generator was 'outside' in the garage, they were safe.

My generator is sitting on our open, front porch. To secure it, I have a steel cable, routed through the frame, then through a loop on a security spike, that's driven 3 feet into the ground all secured by a hardened lock.

 

[3930dave]

Whenever this topic comes up I feel compelled to tell my story. About 11 years ago now, it was a chilly afternoon and I was working in my mobile shop/trailer, my engine driven air compressor was inside the trailer with the exhaust piped out. I don't remember what I was working on, but I had the compressor running. I started to feel light headed so I went outside and sat down. I have no idea how long I was unconscious, but when I came to, I realized that at some point I had pissed myself. I truly have no concept of how long I may have been out. Apparently that was not my day to go.

Brian

Thanks for sharing that Brian. Clearly, you used up a couple of your 9 lives that day.

Am I remembering correctly ? You had an exhaust leak that you weren't aware of ?

Given your level of mechanical knowledge, that is a significant example of how easy these faults are to overlook.

Rgds, D.