Adding shower in barn, TILE Questions

[SPIKER]

Hi All:

Well after greasing up the house shower & having to make trips in all time I'm going to fix up a Utility/Shower/Bathroom in the barn.

I already have it walled off and it has cold water & a Sump Pump going into a small underground grinder pump back to the septic system.

Issues I have are already finished concrete floor (With Sump Crock & single thrown sewer connection in the concrete.)
I'm planning on building/framing a 3'x4' corner shower/TILE SURROUND, I was planning on NOT tiling the floor as it is concrete already. Besides Grout how do I SEAL the bottom of the walls/Tile to the concrete floor without it leaking and getting up into the stud walls? PLATES are all Treated Lumber with CUT Concrete Nails & GLUED DOWN and Standard Nail Gun Nails into untreated vertical studs been in for over a year~16months. The FLOOR has a Water Based Stain & Top Coat Clear Sealer that is somewhat slippery when wet Real Slippery so adding TILE MAY HELP. I'm using 12" Ceramic TILE & Store has several options for the Mastic-Adhesive but not sure which would be best. This shower will be a DOG Wash and ME mostly after working in barn or on car etc.

I COULD Tile the floor but wasn't planning on it & don't see the need since the floor is sealed & coated concrete with no cracks (18months old.)

ALSO 1 Wall is OSB & I was thinking to spruce it up Taping the joints with Durabond90 and Tile Tape. then Skim Coating the entire OSB Wall with the Durabond90. followed up with a coat of white paint this will be the interior wall of the barn & will hold tools on the other side of the wall.

I have the NEW Lightweight 1/2" Tile Backer Board DUROBoard not yet installed, should I use PL400 Glue under it on the Studs & OSB or just the DUROScrews? Any recommendations for best place to get the GROUT and ADHESIVE-MASTIC for the tile, I have Menards, HD and LOWES all local. The Menards Price for Version3 Tile Adhesive was almost 40 bucks a bag (a bit expensive I thought.) I'm heading out tomorrow for some DUROBond90 for the wall & would like to get the tile mastic then as well.

I'm not in a major hurry so looking for thoughts on this one. Also will be adding old washer & drier in there & HOT water (Instant on type) as I get some deals to wash Greasy Work cloths. These are all going in a 110" x 14' room in one corner of my Pole Barn.

thanks

Mark

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Grout is not waterproof.

Normally what you do with a tile shower is put down a PVC sheet that goes up the wall about a foot and then tile over that. For the walls you put roofing felt behind the tile backer board, layered to direct the water down. If you want to go simple and cheap I would recommend a precast plastic shower base.

 

[CurlyDave]

I would carry the precast plastic shower base one step further and get an entire pre-formed plastic shower stall.

Goes in fast, leakproof, and adequate for a shower/bath in a barn. Will never show up in a fashion magazine, but will more than do the job and will be the most economical solution.

P.S. For a dog wash, I would go with a bathtub elevated 24" above the floor with steps for the dog to climb up and get into the tub. Not only will this save your back, the thought of getting into a stall shower with a dog is not particularly appealing. Are you planning on doing this clothed or naked? No matter how docile the dog, at some point it will look like a melee but the dog has sharper claws and teeth...

 

[the old grind]

Grout is not waterproof.

Normally what you do with a tile shower is put down a PVC sheet that goes up the wall about a foot and then tile over that. For the walls you put roofing felt behind the tile backer board, layered to direct the water down. If you want to go simple and cheap I would recommend a precast plastic shower base.

I would carry the precast plastic shower base one step further and get an entire pre-formed plastic shower stall.

Goes in fast, leakproof, and adequate for a shower/bath in a barn. Will never show up in a fashion magazine, but will more than do the job and will be the most economical solution. ...

I'd worry that seasonal expansion might compromise the stability/integrity of what's under/behind tile with inside and outside walls connecting around it, depending on how high you go up somewhat. Leaks are a bear anywhere, anytime. Grout can be sealed, but that's an ongoing chore with often-inconsistent results, and a good freeze might worry me a bit. (Might you someday be patching-up with a calk gun?)

A full f-glass corner enclosure would be my first choice, and perhaps worth the bucks (o'all) to get one roomy enough to suit. Easy install, easy to clean(?), little to calk/seal, etc. (Just MHO) btw: are your drains/traps/vents 'proper' for all your planned fixtures/uses? Gurgling isn't so bad, ... septic gas burps aren't so good ...

 

[3v0]

I agree that a precast all in on is the way to go here because it will be easier to clean.

 

[Egon]

Plastic pull around curtain.:thumbsup:

Open concept.

 

[SPIKER]

Note: cant use the actual shower base or tub surround as there is only a crock in the floor center 3 feet from where shower is going... The concrete and radiant heat tube is in there already so can't add drain without loosing loop of heat and tearing up concrete.

The Interior Wall and Exterior walls are all pretty well connected and won't move independently very much without a tornado coming thru. and this room was/is built with storm shelter in mind. everything is nailed glued and screwed so far. The room is 2x6 on 16 centers between the poles and up thru the dual header plates. the interior wall will be OSB on both sides and the exterior walls have T1-11 on outside with multiple insulation layers. The Slab is 5~6" thick with 2" styro & radiant barrier under it. it has Fiber and Wire Mesh in it as well. the Walls have PL400 and cut nails holding them in place at bottom treated sill plates. This was done ~30 days after the pour & floor was etched with a carbide grinder to get better adhesion & top plates were glued & nailed into the 2nd floor 2x12 Yellow Pine joists. The room, wall, concrete has been done 2 yrs almost now. There is plumbing in the floor with P-Traps and the Crock was sunk into the ground and concreted into place with sump and check valve but no shower was planned at the time. it is going in as an afterthought. the 4" PVC has all proper drop and flows and is slightly separate by radian bubble wrap from being firmly attached to the slab in case there was slab movement. So far there has been no movement that I can tell so all seems good.

I'll try & get some pics this weekend.

Mark

 

[timster2]

I ran into the same problem once. Used a stall shower unit raised up on 2x4 platform made with treated lumber and treated plywood. You can plumb the drain where ever you need it to go from underneath the shower platform. The platform could be made to cover the drain pipe all the way to the installed floor drain. Use some sheet flooring glued to the plywood platform before you mount the shower stall for a finished look and it will clean up easily and will not let the water damage the plywood. For the edges some aluminum bull nose finishes off the platform and gives you a non slip edge so you dont slip off when wet. The platform will have enough weight to stay in place with minimal if any attachment to the floor so you will not have to worry about the heat.

 

[SPIKER]

I ran into the same problem once. Used a stall shower unit raised up on 2x4 platform made with treated lumber and treated plywood. You can plumb the drain where ever you need it to go from underneath the shower platform. The platform could be made to cover the drain pipe all the way to the installed floor drain. Use some sheet flooring glued to the plywood platform before you mount the shower stall for a finished look and it will clean up easily and will not let the water damage the plywood. For the edges some aluminum bull nose finishes off the platform and gives you a non slip edge so you dont slip off when wet. The platform will have enough weight to stay in place with minimal if any attachment to the floor so you will not have to worry about the heat.

I also thought of trying this direction but changed my mind as I wanted to install a roof/shelf for storage over the shower/toilet and install a wash basin there is a drain for the wash basin already in the wall & I also have a under floor clean-out that I can chip open and use on that side of the room. The upper shelf roof area has water thru it as well already installed (as of last week.

still figuring that no tile on the floor and use some 50 yr silicon caulk between the stained/sealed concrete floor and the tile backer board. then use the tile bond adhesive from floor up walls & backer board with the first line of defense being grout and sealer. I picked up some of the "flexible tile tape" and the Flexible bonding agent for it.
Going to be putting some Durobond 90 and taping up the OSB and Skim Coating that maybe this week.

Mark

 

[CurlyDave]

I see 2 problems with using the concrete floor as a shower base.

1. If you look carefully at any shower base you will see that the surface slopes slightly toward the drain from all directions.

2. All shower pans have a lip which you step over to enter the shower. The lip goes all around the shower pan and if tile is used on the inside, the tile overlaps the lip so water will drain into the pan.

No matter how good a caulk job you do, your shower will have neither of these features, and you will end up with water all over the floor of the barn and not much down the drain at all.

At a minimum, select a shower pan that will couple with your drain and fur out the existing walls to meet it.

 

[Dr Dave]

They do make a raised shower pan, with enough clearance for pvc, to run to your existing drain. I think Menards has it.

Dave

 

[TomSeller]

I would consider putting a shower in the barn but I don't if I could find one large large enough for one of my cows. Even then, I am not sure they would use it. Or if they did they might not know to hold it until they get out of the shower. So it would need a good drain.

 

[dave1949]

I would consider putting a shower in the barn but I don't if I could find one large large enough for one of my cows. Even then, I am not sure they would use it. Or if they did they might not know to hold it until they get out of the shower. So it would need a good drain.

Gary Larson's The Farside fan by any chance? :laughing:

 

[SPIKER]

I see 2 problems with using the concrete floor as a shower base.

1. If you look carefully at any shower base you will see that the surface slopes slightly toward the drain from all directions.

2. All shower pans have a lip which you step over to enter the shower. The lip goes all around the shower pan and if tile is used on the inside, the tile overlaps the lip so water will drain into the pan.

No matter how good a caulk job you do, your shower will have neither of these features, and you will end up with water all over the floor of the barn and not much down the drain at all.

At a minimum, select a shower pan that will couple with your drain and fur out the existing walls to meet it.

Hi Dave:

the floor already slopes to the drain in the "center" of the floor though in this case this crock is actually the door opening of the shower so 2 sides terminate at the rounded edge of the crock. the crock then needs the 2 sides to trap water and direct it to it. I can't cover the crock as it contains a trash pump which will need periodic service. this room area has limited height due to overhead structure which holds incoming water lines, yet to be installed pressure tank/filter and storage.

Pics will be coming soon.

Mark

 

[EddieWalker]

Pics will help.

I remodel bathrooms for a living and I see a lot of water damage in homes because of leaking showers. The number one leaking spot is at the corner of the pan because of all the movement in a building and the pan not being able to take it over the years. Some pans are plastic, others are lead and some are fiberglass. Depends on when the house was built and what was being used at the time. The other common leak is around the drain. You absolutely have to have the right drain for the type of pan you are going to use. I have a job coming up this year to tear out and redo a shower that is less then a year old because the contractor used the wrong drain and it's leaking already.

Eddie

 

[SPIKER]

Eddie I was hoping you would chime in, I know you love Tile & your mainstay. this "Shower" may only be used a few times a year at most (NOW) as it is down stairs and there will be living quarters with full tub/shower upstairs in near future. the room itself is the storm shelter which is why it has been constructed with lots of bracing and interior Plywood/OSB framed 2x6 screwed/glued walls.

this is an early pic of the room, (poor quality) it is ~10wide by 16 deep, the shower is far back right corner and the crock is 4' out from the interior wall (right side w PEX) and 4' out away from the back exterior wall (lean too side.) the floor slopes from the interior wall towards the crock (other than a low spot where the PEX exits the floor.)



this pic shows where the wall goes in at and to the right side is the crock surrounded by water with plywood cover on it. the PEX low spot shows up with the water used to help slow cure this was shortly after the pour. the PEX level is about 1/8~3/16" lower than the crock using the water pooling as a guide.



this video shows the crock area from outside window when finishing the floor NOTE CLICK PIC. TO SEE VIDEO>




the crock set in hand laid concrete with plumbing under slab shown prior to the pour.




edit this pic to add red line where underground 4" PVC runs out to exterior of barn grinder pump. the CROCK pump exit water runs thru the crock side VIA PUMP where the Pink Styro is cut out due to height of the line I didnt want to make the thickness of concrete thinner so I cut out the 1" PINK FOAM and only have the Radiant Barrier Foil Bubble Bubble Poly insulation between the sand-2" pump exit and concrete.



there are other videos and pics of the barn in that same area. I took some really good up close pics (lost?) that are on line of the old PCs here I'm guessing as I can't find them on my laptop which is newer than the pour.


NOTE EDIT IN, I EDITED and added a couple pics above, hit Control F5 or click the pics the TOP and the BOTTOM two have better views and TBN is not showing the new pics on it's site. to see the updates click those two photos...

Shelf Beam detail view upper left.


Pic of the Crock with the line running to left thru side of crock it is set in concrete and piping is in sand, p-trap is under floor & has a check valve flapper type in-line too.


Pic of FALL to the crock from corner of the shower area. level is "LEVEL" & shows 3/8" fall.



the WORKING mess of Utility room area outside looking in it. (Note CAMERA VIEW makes it look odd but mostly all flat/level/plumb.)




Mark

 

[EddieWalker]

With everything that you have going on in there, and the fact that it is a utility room, I would go with building a platform a step up and running the drain lines under it. Then using a one piece, fiberglass shower unit.

Eddie

 

[SPIKER]

Hi Eddie:

bit too far along with the installed overhead shelf and today put in the wall and started the DUROROCK board. The shelf is only 7' high the downstairs barn height is about 10 feet is all. wish I had 12' down there but...

installed the wet wall today, see where it comes out past the arc of the in-floor CROCK. NOTE THUMBNAILS PHOTOS so click to view larger. Thinking of using a glass block half wall for the 4th side to contain the open side into the crock and give a good stop for the floor/side tile.




Second closer view, I think I'll go ahead and put Tile on the floor as well, only talking a few more bucks and then I can sculpt the tile so it flows right into the crock. There are some "Soft Tile Crack Stop" stuff should that go down on the Concrete? there are no cracks in there at all now (18months old concrete.)



Started installing the DuroRock board in the back, going to tape off the OSB Wednesday, (have to go to Cleveland tomorrow.)




Mark

 

[ThomasH]

Mark -

I don't see any tar paper or plastic behind the durorock. Since durorock is basically a water sponge when water gets on it, it will cause mold and wood rot if there isn't a water barrier used behind it.

Tile shower floors typically have about 1/4" per foot of slope towards the drain. This is not a ton of slope, so it's important to use a level and screed and make the mud bed level at the edges, and with a consistent slope.

 

[JimRB]

I have seen my share of rotten structures from flat vinyl pans with no slope laid with a 1/4 jump up at the drain and nail holes in the pan. You get splashed removing the mortar bed because the pan is actually a pool for two reasons. One there was no slope and two is that 3/8" rise at the drain flange. Using greenboard instead of tile backer board and failure to use a moisture barrier between the tile backer board and the framing can be a source of rotten framing. Durock will also wick. Glazed tile might be waterproof but grout joints are not. Caulk is not a substitute for proper work. Caulk is good at those 90 or 45 degree intersections of walls though just because it looks better than the cracks in grout from building expansion and contraction.

Won't studs sitting on always wet pressure treated bottom plates start to rot?