And I thought the Purolator filter was small.....

[3930dave]

Babysitting a car for a relative.

Went to change the oil today, using a new Purolator Pure One filter. Double checked the part # (2000 Civic), but remembered thinking when I picked it up "Small filter, compared to what I'm used to".

Then I pulled the old Penzoil filter off !

I'm pretty sure garden tractors run bigger filters than this !

Pics attached. Penzoil PZ-37 and Purolator PL14459.

Can OD's measure 2 5/8" and 3 1/8" by my eyeball.

I don't know if it was incompetence, or just a shop wanting to put another 32 cents in their pocket by using a smaller filter. Either way, I'll recommend to my relative that they discontinue using that service shop.



Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

That's normal Honda filter size. They switched to the smaller sized filter for all models except the S2000 in 2004 or so.

Honda engines are normally really easy on oil.

 

[MyJoBota]

3930dave I recommend you educate yourself before trying to educate others, especially relatives.

 

[3930dave]

Thanks Peacock. Now that you mention it, the Pennzoil site does list PZ-37 for this application.

The Pure One is the correct PN, I'll stick with that. My buddy also checked his stock at his shop when I was there today, his Mopar filter for this application is still the larger sized can too.

Haven't used Pennzoil filters before, can't say I will be in a hurry to.

Being in Canada, the factory recommendation is for 6k km OCI, so that is one thing.

The USA Normal Service interval for this oil filter is 15,000 miles. "Correct" listing or not, I wouldn't want that tiny Pennzoil on anything I owned, anywhere close to that long. Another buddy dropped by the shop today, he figures (seriously) the stock filter on his ATV is larger.

I like to think that Honda knows a thing or 2 about designing engines, but I'll stay away from these tiny filters as long as I have an alternative.

Rgds, D.

 

[Peacock]

That tiny filter is the size that Honda uses OEM. That's what they recommend for the 7500 oil change and 15k filter changes.

 

[Peacock]

And I'd put Honda 4 and 6 cylinder engines up against anyone's for long term durability.

 

[3930dave]

And I'd put Honda 4 and 6 cylinder engines up against anyone's for long term durability.

I've never owned a Honda. I have one (maintenance aware) friend who dumped a Civic due to motor wear/oil issues. That car had been dealer "serviced", so I don't really consider that an engine failure - that Honda dealer is a known scumbag. The maintenance on that car was paid for, whether it was done or not is another issue.

I have no personal issues, so far, with Honda engines.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

3930dave I recommend you educate yourself before trying to educate others, especially relatives.

I'm all for education. :thumbsup:

Let's ignore for the moment that both the larger can Purolator I used, and the Mopar I verified, are parts approved by major suppliers for this application.

Aside from (mechanical interference) clearance issues, please educate me as to what engine related problems can be created by using a larger, higher capacity filter.

Of course, assume that all physical mounting, gaskets, oil return holes, and pressure relief settings match up between the filters being compared. Wouldn't dream of doing this otherwise.

Using a larger, higher capacity oil filter creates __________________________ problems ?

Rgds, D.

 

[Buckgnarly]

I use a larger filter on my 05 TJ and 89 F250 7.3 IDI with no negative results along with many others out there. Both are not the recomended filters but larger versions.


I have run into some filers that have changed dimensions over the year, to include Ford FL-820S and Napa Gold (Wix) filters. Always throws me off when doing a change, worried that I got the wrong filter but have never foudn ti to be wrong. Always wondered if in fact the surface area changes for better or worse though. In any case more oil is always better so I go with the larger filter.

 

[bamboozled]

I think the oil filter on my 07 Sierra HD is about the same size as the one on my 98 Honda Accord was.

The Honda made it to 317,XXX before the transmission started not working right. Still sold it for $900.

 

[3930dave]

I've always considered this filtration issue to be pretty simple - along the lines of "What would you rather have in your bank account, more money, or less money ?".

So, I didn't post this to convince anybody to use a larger filter. Many people would be better served just getting an approved "small" filter, and doing the oil change on time, as OCI's often get stretched out, for the wrong reasons. The example I posted about happens to have a larger "approved" PN available, from a well regarded manufacturer.

I agree that somebody will low mechanical aptitude/common sense should NOT be trying to sub in a larger (non-approved) filter on their own, as that is just asking for trouble.

I'm pretty clear on why some manufacturers are fans of de-contenting filters.

I'm (way) less clear why some end-users are though.

Until someone answers my:

"Using a larger, higher capacity oil filter creates __________________________ problems ?"

question with solid technical reasoning, I'll comfortably remain in the Size Does Matter camp. It matters to me; You - your call.

Whatever you use........ Long May You Run :thumbsup: ........ (meant seriously, not sarcastically).

Rgds, D.

 

[sixdogs]

I used to swap around all kinds of filters and cross-reference everything. I can't remember the "Master Book" --maybe Fram--I used but it would list the bypass or relief pressures of filters and well as check valves or anti flowback valves or whatever. Measurements of filter as well. It's been 10 years so I forget the terminology but not all filters that appeared to be equal had the same pressure reliefs and other features.

What I learned was to check stuff out before you accept what a lube shop or parts guy says. Today, I go with factory filters for most everything and take the worry about of being close.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I think about any filter that is the right PN for your vehicle will work just fine as long as you stick with the recommended oil change interval and not do like DiamondPilot's brother in law (see other posted thread) and run 68K miles between changing oil filter or air filter. Properly serviced and use of good quality oil and there wont be a lot of filtration to be done anyway.
As for relief pressure, there should never be a reason for a filter to go into relief when oil is changed regularly, and by that I dont mean regularly at every Feb 29th.

 

[crazyal]

I hate to say it but size of the filter is not a very good way to judge how well a filter will work. Toyota filters use a much more complicated folds so they get more filtration media inside the small filters. I personally thought they did this so they had more room inside the engine bay. The filter also could have a check valve and over pressure valve inside of it. One of the simplest things you can do is cut a filter apart to see how it's made and how much surface area it has.

 

[3930dave]

6dogs, Gary, Al - we all think along the same lines, no arguments there.

Looking at 2 mainstream large can filters, verified for the application, and one smaller Penzzoil one that came off the car, I started this thread under the mistaken impression that what I was looking at was sloppy service.

I have cross referenced my own filters, for one specific application, but I wasn't intending for the thread to drift over to that area. For the obsessive compulsive filter guys (me included), that type of discussion is more appropriate over at BITOG.

I knew that some vehicle manufacturers had retroactively down sized their oil filters (I recall JDGreen talking about this on his GM), but I had never come across it with my vehicles to date.

Al - agreed - Filter Media total area and type are separate parameters from can size. As you probably know, those dissections (new, and used) are done and posted over at BITOG, and other sites. Didn't want to introduce those complications here, as that is beyond what many people care to assess.

Per Gary's point - consistent basic maintenance is what matters the most, long term.

Thinking about this thread has reminded me of the outdoor climate that I live in. On this 2000, Honda considers Canada to be automatically Severe Service. As discussed, that means they want the oil filter changed at 6,000 km, versus 15,000 miles in the USA.

Pretty huge difference, and if you've only lived in a Temperate zone, gives you a good idea of how beat up motor oil gets here in Canada. Contending with this environment, I've always tried to get the best filter I can get my hands on, at a reasonable price.

In recent years, I've settled on Pure One, and will be using those on this Civic as well.

Most major filter manufacturers have their filter specs online today. If the Pure Ones that I use were downsized dramatically, I'd be clicking away on the Bosch, Donaldson, etc websites pretty quickly. (Yes, really chasing media area, not just can size.)

Rgds, D.

 

[timswi]

I think about any filter that is the right PN for your vehicle will work just fine as long as you stick with the recommended oil change interval and not do like DiamondPilot's brother in law (see other posted thread) and run 68K miles between changing oil filter or air filter. Properly serviced and use of good quality oil and there wont be a lot of filtration to be done anyway.
As for relief pressure, there should never be a reason for a filter to go into relief when oil is changed regularly, and by that I dont mean regularly at every Feb 29th.

When I worked for Honda a customer had a lube place filter with no relief...Car was generally well maintained...He pulled out of his driveway with a stone cold motor on a very cold day...The wheels spun on the hill and the filter blew off and took the motor with it due to the lack of bypass (coinfirmed by honda engineering) Bypasses do serve other purposes.

The lube chain ended up buying him a new motor with labor.

 

[3930dave]

When I worked for Honda a customer had a lube place filter with no relief...Car was generally well maintained...He pulled out of his driveway with a stone cold motor on a very cold day...The wheels spun on the hill and the filter blew off and took the motor with it due to the lack of bypass (coinfirmed by honda engineering) Bypasses do serve other purposes.

The lube chain ended up buying him a new motor with labor.

Bypass with cold oil happens more often than most people realize. You don't need -40 to get into bypass at startup.

Normal operation should be that the filter comes out of bypass, as the oil warms up.

Rgds, D.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I hate to say it but size of the filter is not a very good way to judge how well a filter will work. Toyota filters use a much more complicated folds so they get more filtration media inside the small filters. I personally thought they did this so they had more room inside the engine bay. The filter also could have a check valve and over pressure valve inside of it. One of the simplest things you can do is cut a filter apart to see how it's made and how much surface area it has.

You are right. My Nissan uses what appears to be a small filter just like my Civic but both have nearly as much media as larger filters used on domestic brands.

Also remrmber, good air filtering is more important in my opinion since a engine is really just a air pump. Dirty air in will wear it out quicker than anything.

Chris

 

[MrChris]

If a smaller filter is still able to filter properly, I would think the advantage to be more oil in the engine at all times.

 

[3930dave]

You are right. My Nissan uses what appears to be a small filter just like my Civic but both have nearly as much media as larger filters used on domestic brands.
Chris

Chris - in terms of media, did you crack 'em open and roll them out, or was that based on estimating drained weight ?

(I trust your assessment, either way).

When you say Nissan, I'm thinking big pickup.

Rgds, D.