Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[leonz]

We may be talking about different knife styles.
On mine they are pairs of "L" shaped knives, with the horizontal leg drooped down a bit;
|

OK, maybe not THAT much.
That is paired with one that is flipped;
|
/
As a pair, maybe they form an inverted "Y"

As to how one knows what one knows....
Some combination of senses and deductive reasoning.
I did not record the time and date.

Anyway, reverting to;
|| with the middle of the roller in this -> direction
\
has resulted in no further jams.

The jam that I got almost certainly resulted from the shackle and knife falling to the outside at spin down.
It probably required just the wrong combination of speed and position, perhaps combined with a bit of tilt, to happen.

Hello Reg,

About your mower; the side slicers should always point
away from each other no matter their position on the
A, B, or F Caroni flail mower rotor and be back to back,
vertical to vertical no matter the posiition/knife station
on the flail mowers rotor.

The shackle should always remain stationary on the knife station
and should NEVER ever move from side to side.

If the shackle is that worn it needs to be replaced.


One of the Caroni employees must have been pissed at
his or her boss or was careless about installing the
side slicer pair that is like this or was like this.

 

[Reg]

Hello Reg,

About your mower; the side slicers should always point
away from each other no matter their position on the
A, B, or F Caroni flail mower rotor and be back to back,
vertical to vertical no matter the posiition/knife station
on the flail mowers rotor.

The shackle should always remain stationary on the knife station
and should NEVER ever move from side to side.

If the shackle is that worn it needs to be replaced.


One of the Caroni employees must have been pissed at
his or her boss or was careless about installing the
side slicer pair that is like this or was like this.

That was my initial reaction too, i.e. an assembly error, whether or not deliberate.
This was in no way "worn" it was at the time a very new mower.
The only reason I was in there was my (obsessive) habit of taking new things apart to reassemble them with grease so that they aren't rusted together when maintenance is needed.

If I had not got the jam a few days later I would have left it "corrected".
Since I have had no more jams since and there are no other problems I will leave it just the way it came from the factory.

I think this is a probability thing, some exactly wrong combination of position during spin down and tilt of the roller with this end of the roller down COULD cause the knives and shackle to flop outwards and jam the next start-up.
It might be one in 10 or one in 10 million, for me it was one in the first two or three (of some unknown number).

My belief is that it is a design fault that (again, in MY sample) can be masked by an unauthorized assembly procedure.
This is not uncommon - sometimes the guys and gals on the line DO fix "engineering's" problems (-:

 

[leonz]

That was my initial reaction too, i.e. an assembly error, whether or not deliberate.
This was in no way "worn" it was at the time a very new mower.
The only reason I was in there was my (obsessive) habit of taking new things apart to reassemble them with grease so that they aren't rusted together when maintenance is needed.

If I had not got the jam a few days later I would have left it "corrected".
Since I have had no more jams since and there are no other problems I will leave it just the way it came from the factory.

I think this is a probability thing, some exactly wrong combination of position during spin down and tilt of the roller with this end of the roller down COULD cause the knives and shackle to flop outwards and jam the next start-up.
It might be one in 10 or one in 10 million, for me it was one in the first two or three (of some unknown number).

My belief is that it is a design fault that (again, in MY sample) can be masked by an unauthorized assembly procedure.
This is not uncommon - sometimes the guys and gals on the line DO fix "engineering's" problems (-:

The design fault could be a miss postitioned knife hanger if a welding jig is not used
for positioning the knife hangers Reg.

The other issue is run up and cycling with a high speed horizontal balancing machine.

If the rotor was balanced prior to the installation of the knives on the knife stations
and not balanced again with the knives and shackles installed prior to assembling the
mower but I think the greasing of the parts may be the issue as you would not have
gotten the mower if this problem exisited and if they had balanced the rotor with the
shackled and side slicers prior to assembly.


The other issue is using grease as the grease is a dirt magnet and will hold dirt and
grass fines.

I do not use any lubricant of any type as they attract dirt and debris and eventually limit
the movement of the shackle and knves over time.

You should only have a very fine grass dust adhering to the rotor, shackles and side slicers
as this also limits the ability of the shackle and knives to fall away as they are designed to do.


EDIT: At most I would recommend using fluid film and only fluid film on the threaded or cotter pinned portion
of a knive hanger(in my case my knive hangers are spring mounted which permits me to dismount the side
slicers and dethatching blades when the gras dust is removed by scraping away any excess that limits the
knive hanger to slde freely within the weldment which holds the knive hanger.
ANY opportunity to use a hot high pressure washer at the car wash will only help the flail mower owner for seasonal
end of year maintanance as it will break up any grass fines adhering toteh mower hood/shackles/knives/pins or bolts.

 

[IslandTractor]

The only reason I was in there was my (obsessive) habit of taking new things apart to reassemble them with grease so that they aren't rusted together when maintenance is needed.

On this point, I just had to change two sets of blades on my TM1900 yesterday in prepping it for the new season. I had trouble getting both nuts off but it was not a lubrication issue. The threads that extend beyond the nut itself are very vulnerable to damage by "hard" debris and when damaged make it difficult to back off the nuts. They also tend to rust a bit and are obviously covered with grime which doesn't help. I'm thinking of cutting the unnecessary length off (1cm) in the future. Just be careful to use a very clean cutting tool so there will not be thread damage or cut with a nut on which can be backed off to clean up the threads before installation.

I didn't notice this issue previously as I always used an air wrench to install/remove the nuts but was using hand wrenches because I screwed up my compressor by adding too much oil (note to self, don't assume a black tube attached to the compressor oil cap is a dip stick, check for a sight glass next time!:ashamed

 

[beppington]

We may be talking about different knife styles.
On mine they are pairs of "L" shaped knives, with the horizontal leg drooped down a bit;
|

OK, maybe not THAT much.
That is paired with one that is flipped;
|
/
As a pair, maybe they form an inverted "Y"

As to how one knows what one knows....
Some combination of senses and deductive reasoning.
I did not record the time and date.

Anyway, reverting to;
|| with the middle of the roller in this -> direction
\
has resulted in no further jams.

The jam that I got almost certainly resulted from the shackle and knife falling to the outside at spin down.
It probably required just the wrong combination of speed and position, perhaps combined with a bit of tilt, to happen.

My dad's Caroni has the knives shown on the "B" rotor in this pic:

 

[Reg]

My dad's Caroni has the knives shown on the "B" rotor in this pic:

Mine are also as depicted in "B" - in fact I think they refer to that as a B rotor.
It is easy to see that when that rotor is horizontal the knives/shackle on top of the roller can flop in a few different directions.
As I keep saying in ONE case MINE flopped outwards causing a jam on the next re-start.
When I said I had taken mine apart to grease things that would likely rust together I had NOT meant to imply that I slather grease all over everything like cream cheese on bagels.
It was basically the THREADS of the shackle pins, which I anticipated would need to be pulled from time to time for knife sharpening or replacement.

Yeah, I'm not going to speculate as to whether or not which worker failed to use which jig/template when welding what to which, or used it incorrectly.
I just know what I found, what I did, what happened after that, what I did then, what has not happened since, etc.

 

[Reg]

On this point, I just had to change two sets of blades on my TM1900 yesterday in prepping it for the new season. I had trouble getting both nuts off but it was not a lubrication issue. The threads that extend beyond the nut itself are very vulnerable to damage by "hard" debris and when damaged make it difficult to back off the nuts. They also tend to rust a bit and are obviously covered with grime which doesn't help. I'm thinking of cutting the unnecessary length off (1cm) in the future. Just be careful to use a very clean cutting tool so there will not be thread damage or cut with a nut on which can be backed off to clean up the threads before installation.

I didn't notice this issue previously as I always used an air wrench to install/remove the nuts but was using hand wrenches because I screwed up my compressor by adding too much oil (note to self, don't assume a black tube attached to the compressor oil cap is a dip stick, check for a sight glass next time!:ashamed

I am having trouble figuring where there is a cm or so of excess thread.
Not the shackle bolts ?

If it is not a moving part, i.e. if balance doesn't matter, I would be tempted to add another jam nut to protect the excess thread rather than cutting it off.

If it IS a moving part and balance does matter I would be very leary of cutting off the excess.
Putting extra thread protecting nuts on is REVERSIBLE - cutting off excess threads ?, not so much.

 

[IslandTractor]

Good points on balance although so long as all the bolts are the same size it would remain balanced with either the extra bolt or shortened bolt. On my mower there is excess thread after the bolt is fully seated. Adding another 28 bolts to cover the excess would be extra work, weight and $. Should be able to reuse the extra bolts but I always replace the main lock nut and bolt when replacing blades and shackle. Maybe I can find a bolt that is a centimeter shorter. I think I got the ones I have now from Grainger rather than AgriSupply. AgriSupply charges an arm and leg for their metric nuts and bolts and offers no volume discount. (likewise on the $7 clevis but I haven't found a suitable metric replacement and SAE clevis sizes are too big or small).

 

[leonz]

Here are a few suppliers of shackles andchain shackles which are used for the Caroni's.


The crosby group seems to have the most assortment of shackles.



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I think the Agrisupply price for
the U type chain shackle which
is that the shackle is less expensive
than all the others.


The one added benefit of note for the Crosby
or Campbell Metric U chain shackles is that the
nut is anchored and then followed by a cotter
pin in the bolt used for the U bolt type U shackles
they offer for chain.

 

[leonz]

Here is a fact sheet for crosby shackles as an example

 

[RFB]

I was notified yesterday that Agr-Supply shipped me the mower. Due to arrive on 08 August.

I ordered (in January) a Caroni 6' flail with F style blades from AS. It is a special order, and am hoping to receive it in mid to late May. I will be mowing mostly lawn, field grasses and very light brush. It does have twice the number of flails, 112 IIRC.

 

[bandit67]

Following up on my recent purchase. I received my special order Caroni TM1600 in March. I told my wife when I ordered it that we'd probably have an overly dry summer since I shelled out $2k for a new mower. I was right.

However, I have had a chance to use the mower a number of times this summer, and am very happy with it. Seems to be holding up well. Greased the roller again last weekend after realizing that a lot of folks grease it each time they use it. No side-to-side slop, and felt to be well greased prior to pumping more grease into the fittings. My roller does a lot of rolling over rocks, since the grasses are so sparse on our property.

One of the deciding factors in purchasing a flail was that I wanted as much organic material being deposited back to the ground, and the flail's ability to shred everything to better decomposible material is a nice benefit. Also, I don't have to let the grasses grow as tall as I did previously with the rotary mower, so can mow more frequently. In time (years), I expect the flail to help the grasses thicken up with the way it deposits the clippings, and with being able to mow more frequently, that tends to kill off our weeds, thus allowing more grasses that we want to continue to grow & spread.

 

[bandit67]

Following up on my recent purchase. I received my special order Caroni TM1600 in March. I told my wife when I ordered it that we'd probably have an overly dry summer since I shelled out $2k for a new mower. I was right.

However, I have had a chance to use the mower a number of times this summer, and am very happy with it. Seems to be holding up well. Greased the roller again last weekend after realizing that a lot of folks grease it each time they use it. No side-to-side slop, and felt to be well greased prior to pumping more grease into the fittings. My roller does a lot of rolling over rocks, since the grasses are so sparse on our property.

One of the deciding factors in purchasing a flail was that I wanted as much organic material being deposited back to the ground, and the flail's ability to shred everything to better decomposible material is a nice benefit. Also, I don't have to let the grasses grow as tall as I did previously with the rotary mower, so can mow more frequently. In time (years), I expect the flail to help the grasses thicken up with the way it deposits the clippings, and with being able to mow more frequently, that tends to kill off our weeds, thus allowing more grasses that we want to continue to grow & spread.

 

[bandit67]

As a side note, I still have a spare brand new British Metrics extension for the gear box if anyone is interested in purchasing it. You have to buy 2 of them to meet their current minimum order requirements.

 

[RFB]

I saw your post too late...as I sit here looking at them and wondering why when I ordered one they charged and sent two.

As a side note, I still have a spare brand new British Metrics extension for the gear box if anyone is interested in purchasing it. You have to buy 2 of them to meet their current minimum order requirements.

 

[DieselSJ]

Wow, that is a lot of information.

I am definitely leaning towards a flail over a finish mower.

We have just over 4 acres that we need to mow. It is 99% grass and we use a JD lawn tractor with a 48" deck to mow it. It gets mowed pretty much weekly during the summer. I'm looking for something that I can hang behind my JD 850 so both of us can be mowing at the same time (I am fortunate to have a woman that loves yard work and mowing with the little lawn tractor!).

Question is how big can I go? My JD is rated for 22 PTO HP. Rear track of the tractor is almost 6'. But from what I read here I don't have enough PTO HP for a 72" flail.

What do you all suggest? I could go smaller as long as it was offset so that I could get close to fences, etc...

Thanks!

 

[leonz]

About your mowing needs,

You could purchase a flailmower with a
hydraulic shift kit to allow you to mow
close to fences and trees.


But- you have to be more worried about your tractors-

1. three point hitch and its maximum weight lifting ability.
a. The available horsepower at the Power Take Off at the 540 R.P.M.
engine setting on the tachometer of your tractor for various mounted integral implements.
2. whether it has a hydrostatic transmission which is a very large power drain on the
power train of a small tractor.
b. this will also affect the tractors ability to mow under full load.


You cannot get better finish on good turf or old pasture to good turf you
are attempting to improve with mowing, seeding and herbicide use for
broad leaf weeds and invasives.

You could purchase several brands of 48 inch flailmowers that are three point
hitch mounted if desired and not be limited with overloading your three point
hitch weight.

There are brands of these mowers I will not recommend due to a number
of reasons.


I would like you to contact Ken Sweet through the forum here about a rear
mounted flail mower for your tractor as he is a forum sponsor in good standing
and he can help you with this if you decide to pursue this type of finish mower.


______________________________________________________________________________________
Once you go flail you never go back:thumbsup::licking::drool:
Pronovost or not at all!!!:thumbsup::licking::drool:

 

[IslandTractor]

With 22hp at PTO speed mowing a lawn weekly, I would think a minimum of 60" finish flail but would entertain the idea of a light/medium duty 72 or 75" flail seriously. A six foot flail is far too big for serious bush hogging with 22hp at PTO but you are talking about a weekly lawn mowing. While 3PT lift might be a consideration in theory I'd be surprised if that was a practical concern especially as the flail weight would partially rest on its own rear roller.

What you really need to do is try out the 60" and 72/75" flails on your own lawn. Unless you are very lucky to have a dealer with demo models available that is a difficult comparison to do. Alternative is to bite the bullet and just buy one and use it. If it doesn't work out then sell and buy the other size. I would personally be very confident about the 60" with your needs and if I were able to gamble a bit of money I might lose on resale of a barely used flail, then I'd be tempted to get the 75" Caroni with finish rotor.

The key point from my perspective is that you are doing planning only regular weekly lawn mowing. For that duty, I don't think the oft quoted 5hp per foot is as relevant. 5hp per foot of cutter width is appropriate for true bush hogging. You have 22hp so with 4hp per foot could easily lawn mow with a 5.5ft mower.

 

[DavisHollow]

General question about flail mowers. Are they useful on piles of cedar slash (up to 1.5" in diameter)? I assume it would work great on cactus, currently I use a shredder for field mowing (lots of limestone outcropping that I have to watch out for). I ask about cedar because when I don't chip it I just pile it up, and most of that could be shredded but I havent used the shredder much on slash.

 

[leonz]

General question about flail mowers. Are they useful on piles of cedar slash (up to 1.5" in diameter)? I assume it would work great on cactus, currently I use a shredder for field mowing (lots of limestone outcropping that I have to watch out for). I ask about cedar because when I don't chip it I just pile it up, and most of that could be shredded but I havent used the shredder much on slash.

Only if you have a forestry rated flailmower for mulching!!!!!!!