Broken again, loosing faith

[Coyote machine]

Wow. I think some of you are over analyzing this potential problem. For the detented lever which has A or B position, one position always makes enough noise it would be hard to miss when it deadheads the hydraulic pump. The other direction on the lever is quieter when connected to something like a hoe. There are two easy solutions: run a loop when nothing else is in the circuit to prevent a deadhead situation, OR remove the detents. As IT said, the valve is detented for a reason, if you want to disable it go ahead- problem solved. If you want the advantage of a detented valve leave it alone and install a loop. Sometimes its not even about not hearing the relief valve whine, sometimes one just forgets to take the valve out of detent position after removing a hoe., and then a pump can be burnt out for no reason and a HUGE expensive replacement cost. One would think that installing a loop hose would be a simple enough solution. I leave my loop on the dolly my hoe rests on when stored to remind me to install the loop when the detented circuit is absent an implement requiring flow. In fact, my dealer was nice enough to make up a hose for me no charge.
Hope this helps.:thumbsup:

 

[aczlan]

Sometimes its not even about not hearing the relief valve whine, sometimes one just forgets to take the valve out of detent position after removing a hoe., and then a pump can be burnt out for no reason and a HUGE expensive replacement cost.

Why would they design a system where a common mistake by the user can cause "a pump can be burnt out for no reason and a HUGE expensive replacement cost"? That whole train of thought seems odd to me.

One would think that installing a loop hose would be a simple enough solution.

So now one needs to keep an extra loop of hose on the tractor at all times?
Seems like a mechanical lock that requires active user input to enable, or a hose that you connect together like Deere, Kubota, Massey, etc have would be a better solution.

Aaron Z

 

[DK35vince]

You can't use loops if your remotes are always conected to something like top and tilt cylinders like mine always are.

 

[murphy1244]

You can't use loops if your remotes are always conected to something like top and tilt cylinders like mine always are.

what happens when your at the end of piston travel?

 

[DK35vince]

what happens when your at the end of piston travel?

They will dead head the pump if the remotes are left on. Thats why I wouldn't want the detent valve.

 

[DK35vince]

Why would they design a system where a common mistake by the user can cause "a pump can be burnt out for no reason and a HUGE expensive replacement cost"? That whole train of thought seems odd to me.

Your not alone. I don't get it either.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Wow. I think some of you are over analyzing this potential problem. For the detented lever which has A or B position, one position always makes enough noise it would be hard to miss when it deadheads the hydraulic pump. :

Well I wrote my comments at the beginners level as that's where I spend most of my time and if you lay it out at that level the newbies on the board can follow and the eggspurts can chime in as they feel appropriate. I can't ,without Googling it ,draw you a diagram of a detent valve or explain how they work. Therefore I have no real idea how their operation interacts with relief valves and supply pumps. Hopefully someone here has it down pat and will take the time to enlighten me and all the others on the forum that don't have that info at their finger tips.

 

[phiferpharm]

Well I wrote my comments at the beginners level as that's where I spend most of my time and if you lay it out at that level the newbies on the board can follow and the eggspurts can chime in as they feel appropriate. I can't ,without Googling it ,draw you a diagram of a detent valve or explain how they work. Therefore I have no real idea how their operation interacts with relief valves and supply pumps. Hopefully someone here has it down pat and will take the time to enlighten me and all the others on the forum that don't have that info at their finger tips.

VT- The bottom line is that when you release the stick for the front loader, it stops doing anything at the point you release it. With the detent valve, it can lock in a position where it is trying to move hydraulic fluid through the hoses even though you have released it. You will likely hear that the noise is different and if you wiggle the stick it will center up and stop trying to move fluid. The "loop" is just a piece of hydraulic hose with the correct couplers for your set up that will allow the fluid to just circle back into the hydraulic tank if you accidentally have the stick all the way one direction or the other and clicked into detent.

 

[vtsnowedin]

VT- The bottom line is that when you release the stick for the front loader, it stops doing anything at the point you release it. With the detent valve, it can lock in a position where it is trying to move hydraulic fluid through the hoses even though you have released it. You will likely hear that the noise is different and if you wiggle the stick it will center up and stop trying to move fluid. The "loop" is just a piece of hydraulic hose with the correct couplers for your set up that will allow the fluid to just circle back into the hydraulic tank if you accidentally have the stick all the way one direction or the other and clicked into detent.

I hear you on that, makes perfect sense, but why the relief valve would not pass enough fluid to protect the pump from over heating and damage is the point I'm mystified about. Are the respective parts not matched properly?

 

[IslandTractor]

Mechanical lock that requires user action to lock it open?
IMO having a control that can easily be bumped into and (by doing so) can cook your pump if unnoticed is at best a design flaw. If it wasn't a problem, they wouldn't have put out a TSB on it saying that that is not a warrantable issue.

Aaron Z

It is industry standard. Nothing weird about Kioti which you seemed to think.

 

[phiferpharm]

I hear you on that, makes perfect sense, but why the relief valve would not pass enough fluid to protect the pump from over heating and damage is the point I'm mystified about. Are the respective parts not matched properly?

Got me on that question. That one is beyond my level of knowledge.

 

[DK35vince]

It is industry standard. Nothing weird about Kioti which you seemed to think.

If thats true then why haven't I ever read about needing a loop in any of the other tractor sections.

 

[aczlan]

It is industry standard. Nothing weird about Kioti which you seemed to think.

Who else uses such a valve on their CUT? Kubota? Deere? CNH?

Aaron Z

 

[murphy1244]

So what there saying is if you knock the lever to A or B with nothing hooked up you will dead head the system? Why would the main preasure relief valve work? It should be part of the system.
If any of you have a service book look to 10-10 last paragraph.
the hydraulic preasure of implement line is controlled at 2683 PSI by the main relief valve that is installed in the joystick valve Therefore, when the pressure in the circut increases over the relief pressure due to the overload for the operation of the joystick, auxiliary double acting valve and lifting cylinder, the relief valve is open to protect the circut.

Sooo, how can it deadhead????

 

[Coyote machine]

Its just the way it is. Whether its common to other tractors is somewhat irrelevant. Its standard on the Kiotis of DK series. Use a loop, or remove the detents, or suffer the consequences when nothing is hooked into the remote circuit.

 

[aczlan]

So what there saying is if you knock the lever to A or B with nothing hooked up you will dead head the system? Why would the main preasure relief valve work? It should be part of the system.
If any of you have a service book look to 10-10 last paragraph.
the hydraulic preasure of implement line is controlled at 2683 PSI by the main relief valve that is installed in the joystick valve Therefore, when the pressure in the circut increases over the relief pressure due to the overload for the operation of the joystick, auxiliary double acting valve and lifting cylinder, the relief valve is open to protect the circut.
Sooo, how can it deadhead????

Sounds like the relief is undersized, or the cooling system is undersized and cannot handle the heat created by the relief valve for more than a couple of minutes.

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

So what there saying is if you knock the lever to A or B with nothing hooked up you will dead head the system? Why would the main preasure relief valve work? It should be part of the system.
If any of you have a service book look to 10-10 last paragraph.
the hydraulic preasure of implement line is controlled at 2683 PSI by the main relief valve that is installed in the joystick valve Therefore, when the pressure in the circut increases over the relief pressure due to the overload for the operation of the joystick, auxiliary double acting valve and lifting cylinder, the relief valve is open to protect the circut.

Sooo, how can it deadhead????

Its NOT the joystick we're talking about! Its the A/B circuit of one of the two possible PAIRS of rear remotes. The second pair, (C/D)comes from Kioti WITHOUT a detent in the valve's body.
The relief valve doesn't enter into the equation because there is no flow. With the lever for A/B circuit in either A OR B position, therefore detented, the pump is pumping against a wall. NO FLOW. Pump gets no return flow to it and thus burns out; unlike when it gets flow from pump back through pump with the loop in the circuit completing the circle of flow.

One last time: Use a loop, or don't, and burn out a pump. OR remove the detents. Choice is operator's.

Seems this thread is plenty hijacked now. Let's end this endless discussion of something pretty simple to grasp- OK?:confused2::thumbsup:

 

[k0ua]

Sounds like the relief is undersized, or the cooling system is undersized and cannot handle the heat created by the relief valve for more than a couple of minutes.

Aaron Z

Ok look at it this way, Lets say this is a Kubota, and disregard the rear remote with the detent, lets say we operate the main lift valve on the FEL, it goes all the way up and we just sit there and hold the valve back and keep on holding it. The system goes into relief, and we notice the drag on the motor and the whine noise, but we just keep on holding it, How long will the pump on the Kubota last? Developing full pressure into the deadheaded fully extended cylinders. This is the same scenario we are talking about here with the rear remote with the control valve locked into detent and full pressure developed into the not moving connector, with the relief valve trying to relieve the pressure. I don't know how long the Kubota will last, and I don't know how long the Kioti will last with the detented valve stuck applying pressure into the dead ended connector. But with my Kubota scenario you just would not sit there with your hand on the joystick until something breaks now would you? But with the detented Kioti valve you could accidentally activate it into detent and not notice the drag on the engine and the change in pump noise, and just bush hog away for hours until something breaks. right? So smart dealers either remove the detent balls, or supply a loop hose to prevent the load on the pump from developing. I do not see this as a big deal either way. If you remove the balls, you just use a bungee cord after the log splitter is hooked up to hold the valve operated. Or if you retained the detent balls, then you should be protected against accidental operation by the loop hose. Another scenario, would you put your hydrostat equipped tractor in HI range and push up against a big tree and put the hydro into relief and just sit there with the hydro relieving and heating up the fluid, and just hold the pedal to the floor ?? of course you would not do that. Something is liable to give up after a while, but the point is the detented control valve for the rear remotes can, and has been accidentally operated by someone, and left that way so dealers are apprehensive about them.

James K0UA

 

[kiotiken]

My 2 cents is if you do or may use something that requires detentes, leave them alone and install a loop. If you know you'll never use something that requires a constant flow, remove them. It's going to come down to a personal choice based on how you use your tractor. I personally like them, I'm not to worried about accidentally hitting the valve and am confident I'd recognize the signs if I did. I will still take the advice to install a loop, it just may not be first thing Monday morning.

 

[k0ua]

My 2 cents is if you do or may use something that requires detentes, leave them alone and install a loop. If you know you'll never use something that requires a constant flow, remove them. It's going to come down to a personal choice based on how you use your tractor. I personally like them, I'm not to worried about accidentally hitting the valve and am confident I'd recognize the signs if I did. I will still take the advice to install a loop, it just may not be first thing Monday morning.

Agreed, pretty much the way I feel about them. I was never planning on a backhoe or Log splitter, and figured a bungee would work fine If I did, and my intended uses for the rear remote would not require a detent and the dealer really wanted to remove them so I let him.. I have them If I change my mind.

James K0UA