YM336D - Started knocking loud while tilling

[Domush]

That engine sat somewhere for a while. #2 is done like dinner. Amazed that the rings are still in the piston.

The picture looks worse than the cyl feels. It is actually quite smooth save one small ridge which can likely be honed out pretty easily. I'm beginning to think it isn't getting any (or enough) fuel for a full burn. The small (intake?) valve looks like it may be pretty well ready for replacement, too, as it has a bit of an upward curl on the edge of the valve. I'll get some pics tomorrow.

I ran the starter without the head on and cyl #1 and #3 had fuel spitting out of the lines, but #2 never dripped a drop. Otherwise, everything sounded nice and smooth, so the clunking isn't because of a snag anywhere.

I'm going to pull the valves tomorrow as well to check for any bends or excess wear.

Here are some better shots of the inside of the cyls:

#1

#2

#3

It feels as though the small valve on #3 opens harder than the rest, but it may be in my head. Not really sure how to find out. That may be the reason it felt like #3 had the best compression when really it was just tougher to move the valve (guessing).

 

[Johnp33]

All three cylinders show signs of rust, that could be why the rings stuck on #2. I would be looking at an exchange engine from a reputable engine remanufactured. It is worth looking up, the whole thing needs a rebuild and re-bore, to get full core credit the engine must be complete, and assembled.
I rebuilt engines for a living and if you get a .010 over engine bore and crank you will be by far ahead than trying to do it your self. You can chose how much you get exchanged. Minimum I would do is the long block, head and block complete, and the fuel nozzles, even then you will need the pump tested. If you fimd a good re-builder, not necessarily the cheapest, ask what they have as different packages.
You could try Rock Auto for a start, and just google re-builders for diesel engines, farm tractors, Yada,yada, and a list will come up. Then Google there name for complaints.
Just a thought!:thumbsup:

 

[kenmac]

I haven't tried looking but, I don't think these engines are an easy find even used. If possible I would rather rebuild my own. At least You know what you have

 

[Johnp33]

My little loader has a 28 HP three cylinder Yanmar engine.

 

[Domush]

Keep in mind, I'm hoping to do this for as little as possible. I don't have thousands (maybe $800) to plop into this thing. I don't care if it still burns oil after I'm finished, so long as it runs again without a scary knock. Even at the high price of oil, I could buy a LOT of oil for $800.

I may not live here a year or two from now, so I'm not doing this as part of some "it'll last forever when you're done!" goal. I'm trying to keep it pragmatic and trying to get a running tractor that won't explode on me for a year or two, and maybe even sell for a grand or two when the time comes.

I'd love nothing more than to do my first 'real' rebuild, but this isn't a required item for me to live, so it gets what money I have left over to spend on stuff I shouldn't be putting money into in the first place.

I appreciate the advice on the best way to get this thing to be reliable again, but it'll fall on deaf ears, as I just need it to limp along and pull a blade here and there. I'd love a real, nice tractor with a FEL, but this one likely won't be it, and it may not even be in this house (or state). So, are there options for a low budget means to get this thing running without a full-on rebuild or used engine? I've already done some checking on prices of parts on these and it is absurd. Just rings cost $100/piston. That's $300 plus shipping and I haven't even figured out the knock yet

I'll be ordering a micrometer tomorrow (my podunk town doesn't have any..) as well as the nickel and dime expenses like ring pliers, ring compressor, assembly lube, valve lapping compound, suction cup tool thingy, etc. I'll wait on the Hoye order until I know everything I need, as shipping from them adds a lot for one-off orders.

In short, I hate the predicament I'm in, but I don't mind spending a little and working a bit to get it fixed, but I can't drain my account for a tractor I could possibly live without. I like it, but if it's going to cost me $1500+ to get running again it's going on craigslist for parts. :kicks the tractor:

 

[winston1]

I hear what you are saying about the parts costs. It would seem to me what you stated about the #2 injector not putting out fuel may have a lot to do with the knock and the condition of that cylinder. You may want to find why no fuel there to start with. injector pumps aren't cheap either. I think I understand your prediciment and only you can decide what course of action you choose. I'll be pulling for you whatever it is.

 

[Johnp33]

First thing measure the distance from the top of the piston, to the top of the block, on all cylinders that will tell you if there is a bent rod, the cylinders need to be measured you may be able to get away with a hone and re-ring job.
The head do not use any lapping compound, fill the ports with diesel and if the valves leak more than a dribble in 5 seconds they need a regrind. If they are OK the head gasket kit will come with new valve seals, replace them one at a time, if you have a valve spring clamp. I would get the fuel nozzles checked, the pumps are near bulletproof.
I was looking into a fuel transfer pump for my engine and there was a place in Florida that was reasonable. I printed out a full blow up and manual for my engine on line, I do not know where it is. If I can find it I will give you the site.

 

[California]

You didn't ask for advice, but I'll throw in my two bits worth anyway:

Over the past 50 years I've started a lot of projects on the cheap by buying old equipment (or in a couple of cases, rental houses), did some fixing, then either got many years reliable and inexpensive use or else sold and moved up after I understood a little more about the subject. In a few cases I've bailed at little cost when I knew enough to understand it wasn't right for me. And there have been a very few instances where I walked away at near total loss. (Example: it took me a month to find a buyer at $175 for the Ford pickup that got me through college. I knew it was dead reliable but I couldn't convince anyone after they saw it ).

I've won so many of these gambles that I'm not afraid to try another. But you have to go into them with an understanding that sometimes the only cost-effective next step is to abandon the project as-is at a loss and go try something else. I wonder if this Yanmar falls in that category.

 

[284 International]

I've been following this thread, but haven't had anything useful to contribute. You've done an excellent job of restoring your tractor; it's a nice looking machine now. I want to commend you, too, for the good photographs and detailed narrative you share. I hope you are able to make something work for yourself, to keep up your property.

The ring sets I see at Hoye are $47.42 a set. They aren't free, but that's not too bad. An intake valve and guide to replace the tuliped one are $25 ish. An injector and affiliated parts is about $100. With a new head gasket and other ancillary things, you should be able to get out for about $250, realistically, to do that cylinder.

I would suggest swapping injector lines or the injectors from the operating one to the dead cylinder, to isolate if it is a bad injector or if the pump isn't functioning properly, before you spend any money. That may help simplify the decision making progress.

 

[Car Doc]

Domush,

My pet peeve is half azz engine rebuilds but they get done all the time however to save money and do like you said you were happy with you could re-use the bearings if they look good I wouldn't think twice about it.

I would re-ring all the pistons and get some oven cleaner and clean the head up good and air check the valves before tear down, the valves can be lightly chucked at the very top where the keepers go in a cordless drill to lap them in if you are careful and re-air check when done. take a light film of grease around each seat to determine how well they seat just push the valve down dont turn with the grease. If they dont seat a valve job will need done dont skimp on this step or the whole thing will be a big waste of effort valves are THE critical part of n engine running right!

Just for conversation but if you found the right guy grinding 6 seats and 6 valves would not cost very much and that is all you probably need to get by I would do it for a box of beer.

Vern was re-doing his there is plenty of good info on his thread check that out too. As has been mentioned you will need to either take the injectors and pump in and have them pop tested and so forth to fix the suspected fuel system problems, all this is absolute minimum that needs done on a budget. good luck

edit: I forgot to mention how I prep my flat surfaces- I use a rubber sanding block and 80 grit air file sheets torn in half and I use Deep Creep spray oil on the sand paper and the surfaces really helps cut, parts house will sell you a sheet at a time save money a couple is all you need. Now on exhaust manifolds they are heat treated obviously so grinding is the only way to level them and you can use about any straight edge on an exhaust manifold to find the high spots and grind them down gaskets are thick. hth

 

[clemsonfor]

Keep in mind, I'm hoping to do this for as little as possible. I don't have thousands (maybe $800) to plop into this thing. I don't care if it still burns oil after I'm finished, so long as it runs again without a scary knock. Even at the high price of oil, I could buy a LOT of oil for $800.

I may not live here a year or two from now, so I'm not doing this as part of some "it'll last forever when you're done!" goal. I'm trying to keep it pragmatic and trying to get a running tractor that won't explode on me for a year or two, and maybe even sell for a grand or two when the time comes.

I'd love nothing more than to do my first 'real' rebuild, but this isn't a required item for me to live, so it gets what money I have left over to spend on stuff I shouldn't be putting money into in the first place.

I appreciate the advice on the best way to get this thing to be reliable again, but it'll fall on deaf ears, as I just need it to limp along and pull a blade here and there. I'd love a real, nice tractor with a FEL, but this one likely won't be it, and it may not even be in this house (or state). So, are there options for a low budget means to get this thing running without a full-on rebuild or used engine? I've already done some checking on prices of parts on these and it is absurd. Just rings cost $100/piston. That's $300 plus shipping and I haven't even figured out the knock yet

I'll be ordering a micrometer tomorrow (my podunk town doesn't have any..) as well as the nickel and dime expenses like ring pliers, ring compressor, assembly lube, valve lapping compound, suction cup tool thingy, etc. I'll wait on the Hoye order until I know everything I need, as shipping from them adds a lot for one-off orders.

In short, I hate the predicament I'm in, but I don't mind spending a little and working a bit to get it fixed, but I can't drain my account for a tractor I could possibly live without. I like it, but if it's going to cost me $1500+ to get running again it's going on craigslist for parts. :kicks the tractor:

I think your problem may have to do with the lack of fuel from the #2 line as you noted when you cranked it without head.

It possibly the injector pump, id take it off and carry to a rebuild shop and see what they say. I would then rebuild or get new injectors for that cyl and maybe others as well. Redo the head, and hone the cyls and put new rings on it for a farmer rebuild, i bet that gets you going again for another 2000 hours of use like you are talking about.

 

[yanmars]

There is a rebuilt 3 cylinder Yanmar engine on the detro metro craigslist under the farm section, listed as 3NT66, for $1500.
It is far from you but I saw it so I thought I would mention it. I do not know if it fits your application or not and I know nothing about the seller. Just a heads up.

 

[Smoody]

Domush, I really hate this for you, after you did such a nice job on getting this yanmar presentable and functional.

I see where there obviously was some things going on inside the engine but is it safe to say the sludge and bad oil flow prematurely got you to where you are right now? just curious if the sludge/buildup wasn't so bad would this tractor still be running with what is known now?

makes me want to drop the oil pan on mine just to look

 

[Car Doc]

I'll be ordering a micrometer tomorrow (my podunk town doesn't have any..) as well as the nickel and dime expenses like ring pliers, ring compressor, assembly lube, valve lapping compound, suction cup tool thingy, etc. I'll wait on the Hoye order until I know everything I need, as shipping from them adds a lot for one-off orders.

Don't need mics save that money for parts. Use feeler gage on pistons they can have as much as .020" slop (fact I probably wouldn't even worry on that step as long as the pistons look good) and plastigage on bearings that I do recommend because of the knock etc just so we know. :thumbsup:

Ring pliers etc is a waste of money also just carefully wind the rings around into place "note dot or marks go up" fyi ring compressor will be necessary though maybe just borrow one but they are cheap anyway. Use motor oil on everything save money there too, lapping compound is $3 a tube and you need that only if you dont find someone to grind them. hth

Read the little tips in my other post I think we got most of it covered? fwtw I come up with about $250 in parts you need from Hoye not including freight as long as #2 piston isn't shot then its another $87 still a reasonable re-ring cost if you ask me. :thumbsup:

 

[dusty3030]

AutoZone is a good place to borrow stuff:thumbsup:

Valvetrain Repair | Loan-A-Tool® Program | In Our Stores | AutoZone.com

 

[Domush]

First thing measure the distance from the top of the piston, to the top of the block, on all cylinders that will tell you if there is a bent rod

I'll do that before I pull the pistons. They have to get pulled for a rering, anyhow, so I'll know for sure if a rod is bent or not.

the cylinders need to be measured you may be able to get away with a hone and re-ring job.

That's the plan. I'll check for cyl width spec once I get outside.

I would get the fuel nozzles checked, the pumps are near bulletproof.

When I mentioned pump #2 not putting out fuel, I had the nozzles off, so it can't be the nozzles . I'll prob have them checked anyhow if the cost isn't huge.

You didn't ask for advice, but I'll throw in my two bits worth anyway:

Advice always accepted. It only varies when it comes to heeding it

sometimes the only cost-effective next step is to abandon the project as-is at a loss and go try something else. I wonder if this Yanmar falls in that category.

I can't just throw in the towel without at least trying to fix it. I have some free time coming up, so hopefully I can put a few hundred into it and get a working engine. if not, $300 or so isn't the end of the world and I'll have some experience for the next time I have to do it correctly. :laughing:

The ring sets I see at Hoye are $47.42 a set. An intake valve and guide to replace the tuliped one are $25 ish.

That price is much easier to swallow! I'll likjely swap out that valve for a measly $25. Not worth the risk of later needing to pull the head and pay another $56 for a new head gasket, too.

I would suggest swapping injector lines or the injectors from the operating one to the dead cylinder, to isolate if it is a bad injector or if the pump isn't functioning properly, before you spend any money.

Might be a little late on that one, as the thing is pretty dismantled already. I'll see if I can't get the injectors reattached to the lines to properly test if fuel is getting delivered or not. When I test #2, it was without the injector, just the line hanging in mid-air. Do these pumps need the injector back-pressure to feed fuel properly? #1 and #3 didn't push a lot of fuel, but it was at least coming out.

My pet peeve is half azz engine rebuilds

Nearly every pro mechanic I've come across has their head spin when someone mentioned a 1/2 way rebuild. I figured you would show your disapproval at this method .. but money wins out in the end. I know your experience will mean I'll get the longest life with what I have to work with, even if you hate to witness it happen.

you could re-use the bearings if they look good I wouldn't think twice about it.

The bottoms look perfect. If the tops are the same, I don't see them needing to be replaced. I'll go by the price, though. If they only cost $10/set I'll swap them out anyhow.

I would re-ring all the pistons

Now that I see the rings are only $45/piston that seems doable. I'll feel better having 3 matched sets anyhow. I want to hone all 3 cyls and I don't know if reusing rings is possible anyhow, so now it won't matter. (though I'm still curious if you ever have)

air check the valves before tear down

How do I do this? It seems as though there are passageways everywhere on the head, so how do I clock them all for an air test? Did you mean before I remove the head? because.. too late.

If they dont seat a valve job will need done

I may take it in anyhow, just for advice as to how worn out they are. If the valves are $25/ea, that's $75 for peace of mind (the large valves look much better than the small ones). Though the total cost would be getting up there at that point.

dont skimp on this step

Duly noted.

I would do it for a box of beer.

Good idea! I'll bring a box with me to the valve shop. Maybe they'll even agree to loan me a ball hone, too

Vern was re-doing his there is plenty of good info on his thread check that out too.

Yeah, I watched that with interest. It didn't go into much detail, but it was nice to see what i was getting into.

As has been mentioned you will need to either take the injectors and pump in and have them pop tested

Where would I go to get this done? A diesel truck repair shop? I don't have a local tractor repair place in my town.

how I prep my flat surfaces- I use a rubber sanding block and 80 grit air file sheets torn in half

I have an 18" long air body sander, would this work well for the head surface?

Now on exhaust manifolds

Does that even have to come off? The bolts are really bad, so I was hoping to avoid dealing with it entirely.

It possibly the injector pump, id take it off and carry to a rebuild shop and see what they say. I would then rebuild or get new injectors for that cyl and maybe others as well. Redo the head, and hone the cyls and put new rings on it for a farmer rebuild, i bet that gets you going again for another 2000 hours of use like you are talking about.

Sounds exactly like what I was hoping to do. I worry about the injector pump rebuild cost, but at least it would only be for one pump, not all three.

I really hate this for you, after you did such a nice job on getting this yanmar presentable and functional.

I know, right?! You'd think I'd get some good karma points for that.

just curious if the sludge/buildup wasn't so bad would this tractor still be running with what is known now?

It may turn out the knock was purely because of the injector pump, but I may never know at this point. I skipped some diagnosis steps I should have taken. I didn't think of testing the pump until after the head was off.

makes me want to drop the oil pan on mine just to look

If you bought your tractor used, I'd recommend it! It only takes an hour or so total. That screen is a pretty big bottleneck when it gets clogged, and there is no way to tell short of putting a camera snake into the oil fill hole or dropping the pan. I had 50PSI oil pressure that morning and it was that clogged, so even a gauge doesn't always tell you.

plastigage on bearings that I do recommend because of the knock etc just so we know.

I bought the plastigauge already. I'll test it out with the installed bearings today, so I know if I'll need to order up new bearings or not.

as long as #2 piston isn't shot then its another $87 still a reasonable re-ring cost if you ask me.

Yeah, not bad at all. For a tractor which is no longer made, I was expecting a far greater cost basis.

AutoZone is a good place to borrow stuff:thumbsup:

Thanks for the link! I have one in my area, too. Really happy the hone is also a loaner tool!

Now to get to work measuring and testing. Hopefully I'll know by Sat what parts I need and get them into Hoye.

A huge thank you to everyone who has chimed in on this thread. I'd most assuredly be paying more and working harder on this tractor had I not had your help!

 

[Car Doc]

Wow man you sure know how to use the multi quote thingy I can barelt spel it haha! :laughing:

The dingleball hone is a definite go, the air sander is not it will round edges off I do every thing by hand. I applaud the idea you take the head in and have a pro do it they can skimp where its necessary, from here I cant tell you much I bet the beer will help too cant hurt especially when you bring in a shiny clean chunk for them to work on.

The pump will go to a diesel pump shop and as you know these were used in JD forever so find a shop that does 3 cyl JD Yanmar pumps and thats the place. My local shop can do them they pop tested my injectors too.

Id recommend you ask them how much to do that along with check the pump (not just overhaul it!) my shop did the pop testing for free its real simple they use a hand pump with a 3500 psi gage so the cost should be minimal fwtw. hth

note on that: I am not so sure at this point I might take the lines off at the pump and make sure the line to #2 isn't bad somehow crank it over and watch the flow again???!!! (do this with the pistons out so you dont have to mess with putting all that back on)

Oh by all means only take off what is absolutely necessary the exhaust can stay on as long as the head isn't warped then it will need to to mill it.

We will be calling this a po boy repair nothing wrong with that. :laughing:

 

[tcartwri]

We used to surface heads cheaply by using a piece of thick glass with orbital sanding disks stuck to it. Your shoulders will scream about ten minutes in...

 

[Pete Judd]

As T-cart mentioned, thick glass, or you can use the sink cutout from a granite counter top as the flat surface (free from counter top makers) or the cast iron top of your tablesaw if you have one.

 

[KubotainNH]

Just found this thread, what a bummer. Looks like you have a bunch of good info from the folks posting. Will look forward to your future postings. BTW, on all those quotes....did you do that manually?