Tractor and Excavator OR Tractor with backhoe...

[couchsachraga]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but I"m sure it's been thought about!

I have a 33hp diesel 4wd shuttle shift tractor from the 80's right now, and an old 9 ton backhoe. I expect to sell both in the spring with any luck (backhoe there is serious interest in, tractor I may trade in).

I have use for a backhoe still, but need to be able to get in to some tighter spots, and over some softer areas where my 9 ton 2wd machine just isn't going to go, either size wise or without making a royal mess... and potentially needing a friend with a dozer to pull me out!

My initial thought was a tractor (leaning towards a JD4520 with cab) with a backhoe attachment (and hydraulic thumb). My uses are pretty minimal - stumps on occasion (not frequent) installing or replacing a culvert now and then, cleaning ditches out after storms (and culverts) mostly. Likely pulling the odd rock up too (we have lots of those...).

What gives me pause is I'm used to a backhoe with 8k pounds of breakout force... not 2k.... Stumps will undoubtably take longer, but it will be rare it's a big stump so I'm not that concerned.

I've started looking at excavators, but it seems most are really expensive, or really beat! For a big job I can always rent (or borrow my backhoe back if it is near the road ).

Has anyone gone through this thought process yourself, what did you decide, and why?

Property wise it's 1+ mile of road plus several miles of ski / snowmobile trails, 200+ acres (mostly woods, but 5+ acres of field with another 10 of beaver swamp (or my own personal mosquito breeding ground as I like to call it)) in the Adirondacks up upstate NY. Lots of rocks, some ledge, hills, etc....

$ wise I am fortunate enough that I'm working and have some discretionary funds each month that could go towards a payment on something. I don't think I'd get both the tractor and excavator at the same time (if I went that route), but once the tractor was paid off, or if I had a particularly good year, I could likely get a used mini-ex (10-12k lb machine is my thought, though I'm tempted by bigger).


Thank you all for your thoughts, and Happy Holidays!

 

[jenkinsph]

I have the 4520 cab and a 110tlb to do similar work as you mention. I like the excavators alot with the exception of moving them around on larger properties, the excavators are VERY slow if you need to travel a distance.

As much as I like the my two machines I would suggest you consider a Kubota M59 tlb. This would be the same power as the 4520 and you can equip it with topntilt 3ph, skid steer quick attach buckets and grapple. The hoe is better than most attachment models by all major brands.

I really like the 4520 and 110 both have done a good job for me and I have cabs on both units. The M59 has the power of a 4520 with the same benefits of a 110. I also like the Cat 305 series mini excavator, very nice machine.

 

[20 20]

I can only say what I did, every body is different. I had a tractor with BH, did lots of work with it. I kept the tractor got rid of the BH, did crazy amounts of looking{machinery trader, craigs list, ebay, etc} and bought an excavator. I will NEVER go back to a BH having the two seperate machines is awesome to say the least. Smaller excavators will out dig bigger BH hands down, plus they are more versitale, and can easily go places a BH can't. Like I wrote "I" will never go back to a BH, but there are those that may feel different. I use my excavator for logging, stump removal, pond digging/dredging, stacking logs/rocks and so on. The only problem I had with owning an excavator is that..................I didn't do it MUCH SOONER.

 

[Will_C]

I have never thought the concept through with the size machines you are considering- but I went through the process when I bought my B2620. A backhoe would have added $6500 to the cost of the machine. I looked at several used mini-excavators that were in decent shape for $10-12K. Even the smallest models have significantly more capacity than the hoe for the 2620.

I did not buy the hoe, and have not bought an excavator yet, but if I feel the need to dig (I am fortunate, my brother is an excavating contarctor and will do anything I need with his Case backhoe), I'll purchase an excavator.

Will

 

[dsgsr]

I had the same needs essentially. Have a 2000 JD 4700 that had a JD #48 backhoe on it. I wanted a 12K mini-Excavator but also needed to replace the JD. I couldn't afford both, so I bought the Kubota M59 which is a happy medium. The M59 has the breakout force 7600 lbs of a mini-x and reach 12-feet but can also be a tractor with 3-pth for bushhoging, landscape raking, logging with a 3-pt winch and so on. So what I decided was a tractor can be a tractor and an excavator but an excavator can't be a tractor.


David

 

[couchsachraga]

Sounds like I was right - lots of you have been in my shoes before me

At the moment I"m leaning towards a tractor with backhoe, then if I find that's not enough (my projects get bigger again, for instance) get an excavator.

I've assumed a loaded with what I'm looking for (hoe and remotes, plus extra circuits front and rear and a replacement grapple), cabbed 4520 will run about 60k including tax in NYS.

Dare I ask what an M59 goes for? I've been reading threads here all evening and noted someone say that started around 50k, but that's no cab, 3ph, remotes, etc....

I will say I've always wanted a Deere, but the place my grandfather bought his IH's from decades ago is now a Kubota dealer (Salem).

20 20 - what area are you in? I'm the greater Johnsburg area....

Thank you all for your replies!

 

[jenkinsph]

Here is my take on the 4520, it is a great tractor for 3ph work, plenty of power and the ehydro is great. Can not beat the cab on this tractor either
Mine is setup with six front weights and six rear wheel weights making it compact yet powerful for boxblade and other ground engaging tasks. I do alot of work in close quarters and being short and compact are a plus for me.

The 400cx fel is not as heavy duty as the 110 fixed mount fel and about half the capability of the M59.

I like having a tlb separate from my tractors since I can switch between them without changing implements or attachments. Just compare the loader specs before you buy. Nothing wrong with having a separate excavator and tractor but it will cost alot more.

 

[couchsachraga]

The vast majority of the work I'll be doing will be with the tractor - mowing, loading logs on to the mill the the grapple, up keeping the road and trails (box blade / offsetting back blade and land scape rake, and I plan on getting a land plane next year regardless). That is one of the reasons I question whether the added expense is worth it - I don't have a tremendous use for a hoe, though I like to have one around, especially for cleaning out ditches and culverts (and the odd rock that has grown).

I like the looks of the M59 the more I read about it... I wish it was cheaper, and a Deere! I like the two-peddle vs the treadle, and I prefer the Deere cab. I haven't seen a Laurin though.

 

[jenkinsph]

I have a Laurin cab on my 110tlb and am well satisfied with it but they are costly imo. A 110tlb with a Laurin cab is hard to find but should do everything you mentioned, at least it works well for me doing those same jobs. I mentioned the M59 because you specified a 60 hp tractor with the 4520. really a 110tlb or a Kubota M59 would both serve your purposes imo. The 110tlb regretfully is out of production as of this year while the M59 is still being built currently.

I use my 4520 for most of my 3ph work and built my own landplane/grader 8ft wide and stright set blades for ground leveling and smoothing. I use a heavy duty Frontier BB1284 box blade 1250 lbs and this works well with the tractor size. I also built a 3ph spike tooth harrow 8ft wide. Cost for the landplane materials with good quality reversible blades was about $900 and weighs about 950 lbs. The harrow materials with everything was about $250.

Some pics,
110 with Laurin cab and front work platform home built
4520 cab with boxblade and topntilt
4520 with home built landplane
home built harrow

 

[couchsachraga]

Great work! I would have never guessed the scraper wasn't a production piece of equipment.

There is a 110 with cab for sale used a few hours away. Though I usually always purchased used I'm leaning towards new in this case, as I plan to keep it a long time and would prefer to know the history and not have a machine that was abused (and most of the ones for sale seem suspect (the 110's) being rentals or machines worked hard daily.

 

[dsgsr]

I paid 59K for my M59 out the door, Thats with the front remotes and hydraulic thumb and 3pt arms but no Cab. It's about 1500 more than I could have paid at an other dealer, but that dealer is about 2-hrs away. Changing from backhoe to 3pt arms is not as fast on the 59 as with the Deere machines. Sounds to me you don't need a dedicated TLB like the M59. If you are going to be using the 3pth most of the time, I would get a JD 4720 with a Woods BH90-X backhoe. That is the machine I all most bought.

David

 

[couchsachraga]

I would like to keep it under 60k if possible. That's more than I pay for my car after all by quite a bit!

Why do you prefer the Woods unit to the Deere backhoe? I like the Woods a lot (and when I used to have a Kioti dealer nearby was going to go that route - I prefer Deere, but the Kioti dealer was close and had great service. Unfortunately with the consolidation Kioti's done they are no longer a dealer. I definitely won't be buying a Kioti if that is how the treat their dealers either! (not that Deere hasn't done the same thing, but that's one less "plus" in the Kioti column).

 

[jenkinsph]

I would like to keep it under 60k if possible. That's more than I pay for my car after all by quite a bit!

Why do you prefer the Woods unit to the Deere backhoe? I like the Woods a lot (and when I used to have a Kioti dealer nearby was going to go that route - I prefer Deere, but the Kioti dealer was close and had great service. Unfortunately with the consolidation Kioti's done they are no longer a dealer. I definitely won't be buying a Kioti if that is how the treat their dealers either! (not that Deere hasn't done the same thing, but that's one less "plus" in the Kioti column).

Hard to compare a car to a tractor purchase, apples and oranges. I agree that $60K is alot of money but this is cheap compared to buying a 4520 cab with fel AND a mini excavator in the 5 to 6 ton class. Downsizing from a full size backhoe to a tractor with an ag loader might be too much of a reduction for you. The ag loaders are simply weak by comparison and I suspect you would be unhappy going that light.

I find it rather odd that neither JD or Kubota build a cab type tlb model as that is what I was looking for originally and seems other want the same thing too.

In summary it appears an M59 with Laurin cab and all hydraulic options, hitch is real close to $70-75K. A 4520 cab with hydraulic options, 400cx fel is about $40k+ and a new excavator is roughly $60k in the 5-6 ton size totaling $100K +. this makes the M59 look a little more reasonable imo.

 

[couchsachraga]

Agreed - and I'll be thrilled if I can get a 4520 for 40k in my neck of the woods with cab, FEL, and hydraulic TNT etc....

I find I use the loader on my backhoe rarely- it is overkill for the uses I typically have. It was indispensable building a few roads on my property (moving rocks and stumps, and then loading lots and lots of sand), but for 98% of my uses my current loader (esp. with the grapple rake) which has a capacity of only 1500 lbs to full lift (breakout is around 3700) (all at the pins IIRC) is fine. There have been a few logs I've had trouble loading, but moving up a bit should fix that.

I'll keep looking...and asking questions. Thank you all for your patience!

 

[couchsachraga]

Looking over the specs i was wondering whether I was recalling correctly or not - and I wasn't.

Dynahoe 190 series III is 19,400lbs , breakout is 14,500 pounds. Will dig 19 ft, hoe will lift 3580lb where ever it will reach, can safely move 8k lbs within a limited span (45 degrees of center).

It is definitely overkill for my use these days though! If I could get it further in to the woods (it is 2wd without diff lock, and heavy remember) I could find a few more projects for it.

 

[Martian]

I'm a little late to the party but I would recommend getting a 4520 w/ or w/o a backhoe and renting for the need be times. A Laurin cab is the best aftermarket in the industry but no aftermarket compares to a factory cab.

I don't know how much PTO work you plan to do - but if you don't need any at all I would tell you to look at a JCB MIDI CX - a 50HP tractor but only 25PTO HP, which is just ridiculous, you can't power a 5 foot mower. But the MIDI CX's do have a nice factory cab with removable BH to be able to put a 3PH on. If you'll be using the PTO at all though throw the MIDI out the window.

I would much rather have a 4520 with a 400CX loader and a cab with all the options, it's a much more comfortable operating station. A 448 backhoe will do good but nothing compared to what you're used to. I would rent every time I really needed heavy work but it would work good for trenching and other light work. As far as the loader goes be sure to get the 400CX as it has self leveling so you won't ever accidentally be spilling all your load on the hood.

Any way you go I don't think you could afford new excavator/tractor but a new tractor could work w/ a backhoe and rent for the rest.

 

[couchsachraga]

Afford long term perhaps, willing to spend perhaps no

I'll check in to the Midi - what do they go for? I use a brush hog on the fields and trails once a year, that is my only PTO use. I have 5' unit now, using 28 or so PTO HP.

Thank you... and Merry Christmas Eve!

 

[dsgsr]

When I was shopping, I found the Woods BH much more stout and had a little more reach than the JD 485 BH. If i remember right, it had more ground Clearance mounted also. You will be disappointed with the difference in power between the full size hoe and a Tractor mounted hoe, your least disappointment would be with the M59. I think the M59 has about the power and strength of a 4.5K lb mini-X. Of course it won't have coveted 360 rotation.


David

 

[Martian]

Afford long term perhaps, willing to spend perhaps no

I'll check in to the Midi - what do they go for? I use a brush hog on the fields and trails once a year, that is my only PTO use. I have 5' unit now, using 28 or so PTO HP.

Thank you... and Merry Christmas Eve!

About $55k. Here is one with all of the options on Machinery Trader. There is one on eBay right now as well. I would not feel comfortable running that and I would have to rent a compact to mow. Also the MIDI's are not hydrostatic but a gear transmission. MIDI might not be your best option.
2011 JCB MIDI CX Machines - Loader Backhoes For Sale At MachineryTrader.com

When I was shopping, I found the Woods BH much more stout and had a little more reach than the JD 485 BH. If i remember right, it had more ground Clearance mounted also. You will be disappointed with the difference in power between the full size hoe and a Tractor mounted hoe, your least disappointment would be with the M59. I think the M59 has about the power and strength of a 4.5K lb mini-X. Of course it won't have coveted 360 rotation.
David

I hope that JD comes back with something just to give Kubota some competition or Kubota prices will start to creep up without any competition. No doubt though Kubota pretty well has that market locked right now. No competition for the M59.

 

[20 20]

20 20 - what area are you in? I'm the greater Johnsburg area....

I live south west of you, about 20miles north east of little falls.

When I got the 1st excacvator my wife was ready to shoot me. All the way there and back{picking it up} "what is this good for, what do you plan on using it for once the ponds are done, blah blah blah....." I kept my mouth shut and just went on about my business. Well we've had an excavator for some years now and everytime it comes out of the gagrage she says," this is the best purchase we ever made for the property" :laughing: she also says, "I'm not sure why you didn't get this to begin with". I was once asked if I had to get rid of all my machines except one which one would I keep ? I thought for a bit and if I had only one choice {I own a small dozer tractor SS and 2 excavators} it would be the excavator. Excavators are slow but IMO the versitility in the end makes up for it. I even saw a guy that had put a hitch setup on his excavator and hooked a trialer to it. He had the perfect small operation log/wood trailer set up, he'd cut his wood and use the excavator to load it.

I'm not against any machines just giving my opinion, to each his/her own. I will say a tractor excavator combo is waaaaaayyyyy better then a BH, but there are many variables that have to be weighed. If you don't think you need an ex then go for the BH or try renting an ex and see what you think. I do know for a fact once you have an ex you'll run it WAY more then you would have thought possible.