Bumper Vs. Gooseneck Payloads

[cowski]

the only reason to go gooseneck in a light pick up is safety .i am a firefighter that has been to a lot of bumper trailer wrecks but never a gooseneck.2 wrecks stand out for this forum .1/2 ton ford pick up carrying a mf 135 running about 50 hit a bump started fish tailing flipped up side down in a ditch. a 3/4 dodge was carrying a 4610? ford with the anti sway hitch started off the hill started fish tailing ,he ended up in a v but he got it stopped just before he rolled off the cliff.the dodge driver was real experienced, so it could happen to anyone .it is just easier to get in trouble with a bumper pull.i have both kinds they each have their place but if i had only one it would be gooseneck.

 

[Diamondpilot]

the only reason to go gooseneck in a light pick up is safety .i am a firefighter that has been to a lot of bumper trailer wrecks but never a gooseneck.2 wrecks stand out for this forum .1/2 ton ford pick up carrying a mf 135 running about 50 hit a bump started fish tailing flipped up side down in a ditch. a 3/4 dodge was carrying a 4610? ford with the anti sway hitch started off the hill started fish tailing ,he ended up in a v but he got it stopped just before he rolled off the cliff.the dodge driver was real experienced, so it could happen to anyone .it is just easier to get in trouble with a bumper pull.i have both kinds they each have their place but if i had only one it would be gooseneck.

I tow way more than the average person. Right now 200 miles a week and will do that or better till November. I have been doing this for 20 years. 95% has been bumper pull. Not a single accident but now that I say this I am setting myself up.:laughing:

Two things about your statement stands out to me. First I would say there are 25 to 1 BP trailers to GN trailers registered in my state. So pure numbers will dictate more accidents. Second is I would venture to guess in both these accidents the load was not balanced properly or not secure properly. A shifting load can be **** and a un-balanced load worse.

Chris

 

[xtn]

the only reason to go gooseneck in a light pick up is safety .i am a firefighter that has been to a lot of bumper trailer wrecks but never a gooseneck.2 wrecks stand out for this forum .1/2 ton ford pick up carrying a mf 135 running about 50 hit a bump started fish tailing flipped up side down in a ditch. a 3/4 dodge was carrying a 4610? ford with the anti sway hitch started off the hill started fish tailing ,he ended up in a v but he got it stopped just before he rolled off the cliff.the dodge driver was real experienced, so it could happen to anyone .it is just easier to get in trouble with a bumper pull.i have both kinds they each have their place but if i had only one it would be gooseneck.

I have been lead to believe that fish tailing trailers is the result of improper loading by not having the CG forward of the axles. From what little bit I know about physics it makes sense to me. Can anyone confirm or deny?

If true then those accidents should be chalked up to human mistake, not trailer type.

xtn

 

[Duffster]

I have been lead to believe that fish tailing trailers is the result of improper loading by not having the CG forward of the axles. From what little bit I know about physics it makes sense to me. Can anyone confirm or deny?

If true then those accidents should be chalked up to human mistake, not trailer type.

xtn

Sometime it is just because it is not far enough ahead even though it is forward of the center of the axles. In this situation a GN would make a difference.

 

[ovrszd]

I've pulled a bp trailer off and on all my life. Many times I've had the bp trailer throw a fit, swaying, etc. Probably not correctly loaded. Sometimes unavoidable. This has happened often enough that I am very cautious when pulling a bp trailer.

I recently purchased my first gn trailer. I haven't pulled it on any long hauls yet but have done dozens of short runs with a variety of loads. It's never acted like it wanted to "wag" me or take control of our destiny. The only thing I've noticed is that it pulls smoother with the correct load on the tongue, less "slap". But that has never been bad enough for me to stop and move the load, just a minor inconvenience which is corrected the next time I load.

I feel like loading issues are less hazardous with a gn, it's more forgiving. A lot more likely to cause serious incidents with a bp, which is less forgiving.

I still have three bp trailers. Even if my payload will fit on one of the bp trailers I hitch onto the gn trailer. It just feels so much safer.

Lastly I'll throw in this monkey wrench. The gn trailer is sooooo much easier to hitch onto with my Super Duty extended cab short bed truck. :thumbsup:

 

[Dargo]

Lastly I'll throw in this monkey wrench. The gn trailer is sooooo much easier to hitch onto with my Super Duty extended cab short bed truck. :thumbsup:

Sorry, but after having both for decades, I'll respectfully have to disagree with you. Even before I cheated and have the license bracket mount cameras on my dumptruck and 1 ton for my pintle hitch trailers, I can't ever recall not backing directly into the pintle loop first shot. Even with a camera mounted by the rear cargo light it always takes a few tries to get a GN lined up perfectly.

As I said before, add those attributes to the fact that a bumper pull tracks the tow vehicle better and you can see why I no longer own any GN trailers after all these years. No need to worry about people wanting to borrow my trailers either; the lightest one weighs around 7k empty and nobody with a 1/2 ton seems to have a pintle hitch ready; leaving them very little weight they are actually able to haul.

 

[Reg]

Um... yes. If you read carefully you will see that the conditions you call for are excluded by my statement.

xtn

This statement;
"Any trailer axle farther back from the hitch than the hitch is from the rear axle of the towing vehicle is going to track inside to some degree, period."
doesn't jive with "the conditions you call for are excluded by my statement"

I was NOT proposing a hitch ball farther from the truck's rear axle than from the trailer's axle (or axles mid point) - - and in any case that is not how the geometry works (-:
As I said, "Go figure" or "Go do the geometry".
It isn't HARD, but it certainly isn't simple.

 

[Reg]

I have been lead to believe that fish tailing trailers is the result of improper loading by not having the CG forward of the axles. From what little bit I know about physics it makes sense to me. Can anyone confirm or deny?

If true then those accidents should be chalked up to human mistake, not trailer type.

xtn

Trailer sway or fishtailing is indeed a predictable consequence of improper load distribution.
Yes, the C of G needs to be AHEAD of the axle and in the case of a tandem axle trailer it should almost always be ahead of the front axle's center line.
Measure this out some time, i.e. distance from hitch ball to axle (or mid point between axles) then how far back from the coupler the C of G would be to produce the desirable 10 to 15% tongue load.
Yeah, between 90 and 85% of the way back to there (-:
This will almost always be ahead of the front axle's center line on a tandem trailer, even on a very short trailer.

Odd though it may seem - - and to some this sounds like a contradiction, you still want a little bit more load on the REAR axle than on the front one.
FORTUNATELY you get this just about automatically when you set the ball height - with MOST trailers.
I believe the reason that some trailers sway behind one vehicle and not another is often caused by different ball heights, i.e. the family TRUCK squats less than the family SUV (over simplified).

OK that is most of the mere fizzzix.

As to whether trailer type is responsible for accidents or human error...
I could argue it either way;
Yes, humans can do things right and they can do them wrong.
Designs can permit or preclude particular consequences stemming from human errors.
Designs can also "Encourage" certain types of human error.

So, know what you are doing, know how to do it right, know when you have done it wrong and FIX THAT ! (-:

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Sorry, but after having both for decades, I'll respectfully have to disagree with you. Even before I cheated and have the license bracket mount cameras on my dumptruck and 1 ton for my pintle hitch trailers, I can't ever recall not backing directly into the pintle loop first shot. Even with a camera mounted by the rear cargo light it always takes a few tries to get a GN lined up perfectly.

As I said before, add those attributes to the fact that a bumper pull tracks the tow vehicle better and you can see why I no longer own any GN trailers after all these years. No need to worry about people wanting to borrow my trailers either; the lightest one weighs around 7k empty and nobody with a 1/2 ton seems to have a pintle hitch ready; leaving them very little weight they are actually able to haul.

I'm stunned.

110% in agreement.

I've got 3 goose neck flats, 2 bumper pulls. The ONLY reason I hook to one of the goose necks is they're 10' to 15' LONGER than either bumper pull.

I've been an advocate of pintle hitches for ages. Local DOT boys seems to like them too.

Bumper pulls seem MUCH easier to navigate tight traffic because of tracking the tow vehicle better..... With a GOOD bumper pull, and a GOOD (ie HEAVY duty) tow vehicle, bumper pulls aren't a trade off when all is said and done

Borrowing one of my trailers isn't an issue. My wife taught me how to say he!! NO at a very early age.


I recently bought a KW road tractor and a 36' lowboy trailer. The goose necks have done a good bit of "resting" since.


And for the sake of argument, we have AT LEAST a couple, if not more of the trailers on the road every day during spring/summer/fall mowing season. The ONLY on-road accident any of them were ever involved in was one of the goose necks. Driver dragged a Mini Cooper under the trailer for about 20' in a tight corner. That was the result of the trailer NOT tracking behind the tow vehicle. (No, it wasn't me.... )

 

[ovrszd]

Sorry, but after having both for decades, I'll respectfully have to disagree with you. Even before I cheated and have the license bracket mount cameras on my dumptruck and 1 ton for my pintle hitch trailers, I can't ever recall not backing directly into the pintle loop first shot. Even with a camera mounted by the rear cargo light it always takes a few tries to get a GN lined up perfectly.

Dargo you can respectfully disagree all you want. I'm a little disappointed that you think you know more about me hooking up to my trailers than I do. But then maybe that's an example of your arrogance.

When I can lean around in my seat, seeing the ball in my bed and back to my hitch on the gn I never miss. Evidently your backing skills aren't very good using a high dollar camera. :confused2:

 

[xtn]

No.
For very large radius turns a BP trailer CAN actually track outside.
If, if, if IF..... the hitch ball is back far enough from the rear axle AND the distance from the coupler to the trailer axle (or mid point between axles) is sufficiently short.

I made the mistake of building a hitch one time (just ONCE) that hung WAY outta the back o' the tow vehicle.
For what I tried to accomplish at the time it worked FINE, though it had the obvious drawback of additional leverage against the tow vehicle, increased "effective' tongue weight, increased effect of side sway, etc., however it DID push the trailer out on slight turns.

I've often want to say this in a thread, now I have an excuse; "Do the geometry"
(-:

I'm sorry? Didn't you describe a situation wherein the truck-axle-to-ball distance is longer than the ball-to-trailer-axle distance? I excluded such a condition.

I was NOT proposing a hitch ball farther from the truck's rear axle than from the trailer's axle (or axles mid point) - - and in any case that is not how the geometry works (-:
As I said, "Go figure" or "Go do the geometry".

Oh I think I see what you mean. You're saying that the ratio of distances doesn't have to be as I've described, but that if they're close, and the turn radius is large enough, the trailer can track outside. Okay that's true. Allow me to restate it clearly in the context of the arguments made in this thread:

It is indeed possible for a bumper pull trailer to track outside the towing vehicle in turns with such large radii that it is not a useful point to make when discussing the virtues of various trailers as regards their maneuverability in tight quarters.

Have I stated it accurately now?

xtn

 

[xtn]

Dargo you can respectfully disagree all you want. I'm a little disappointed that you think you know more about me hooking up to my trailers than I do. But then maybe that's an example of your arrogance.

When I can lean around in my seat, seeing the ball in my bed and back to my hitch on the gn I never miss. Evidently your backing skills aren't very good using a high dollar camera. :confused2:

Harder to see the ball from the driver's seat of a crew cab though....

xtn

 

[Iplayfarmer]

This is all relative. It depends on how close the trailers were parked on either side of you, how far back the fence was, the length of your rig, the length of the rigs parked alongside, etc.

Depending on all the above factors in some cases a BP would be better, in other situations a GN would get you out. Like Reg said, it depends on the geometry of the particular situation. A blanket statement can't be made that one type is more maneuverable than the other in all situations.

For me and the way I drive, a gooseneck is much more maneuverable. In other words, I can put a gooseneck where I want it a lot easier than I can a bumper pull. Apparently different folks have different abilities based on experience and who-knows-what else. In the particular situation I was in with the horse trailer, I couldn't have made the turn around in any bumper pull I've ever pulled.

In response to some of the other posts, I find hitching a gooseneck (and 5th wheel) trailer to be much easier that a bumper pull. Something about being able to actually see the ball and the coupler really helps. I have found that I have to be lined up by the time the coupler enters the pickup bed or I have to re-approach. But, I can line the coupler up on the first try. Hitching my bumper pull always takes about three different times of getting out of the truck, walking to the back to see where I am in relation to the trailer, and changing my approach a bit.

My fifth wheel is especially easy... Back up, click, pull away. I don't even have to get out of the cab. I can secure the latch, plug in the lights, and raise the jacks all the way while I'm filling the water tank. (Just don't forget!)

 

[Diamondpilot]

Dargo you can respectfully disagree all you want. I'm a little disappointed that you think you know more about me hooking up to my trailers than I do. But then maybe that's an example of your arrogance.

When I can lean around in my seat, seeing the ball in my bed and back to my hitch on the gn I never miss. Evidently your backing skills aren't very good using a high dollar camera. :confused2:

GN was simple for me when I had a long bed regular cab 1 ton diesel. When I got a crew cab and extended cab it was no easier than a BP. Which for me is not much trouble.

Long story short, truck has a lot to do with it.

Chris

 

[Dargo]

Dargo you can respectfully disagree all you want. I'm a little disappointed that you think you know more about me hooking up to my trailers than I do. But then maybe that's an example of your arrogance.

When I can lean around in my seat, seeing the ball in my bed and back to my hitch on the gn I never miss. Evidently your backing skills aren't very good using a high dollar camera. :confused2:

Sorry, but your sarcasm gets you nothing but laughs from me. Unlike you, I'll still respectfully disagree with you and not be a laughable loon who cannot see the forrest for the trees. Now that I've been plenty nice, I'll just be blunt; you're flat wrong. :thumbsup:

 

[Dargo]

For me and the way I drive, a gooseneck is much more maneuverable. In other words, I can put a gooseneck where I want it a lot easier than I can a bumper pull. Apparently different folks have different abilities based on experience and who-knows-what else.

I mentioned earlier that the only advantage of a GN is if you need to jack-knife the trailer. However, with heavier loads, that's not such a great idea. As far as abilities, if you can't back a truck to a trailer hitch, you just may need some practice. For my needs, a base cab pickup is totally worthless. If you can see the GN ball in the bed of a crew cab pickup, I know some circuses who would want you for a side show.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

I mentioned earlier that the only advantage of a GN is if you need to jack-knife the trailer. However, with heavier loads, that's not such a great idea.

I also like the way a gooseneck tracks when backing. I don't have to anticipate the exageration of movements that comes from having the ball a few feet behind the pivot point of the tow vehicle. I'm sure it's just because of the way I drive vs. the way you drive. I put a lot of miles on gooseneck trailers when I was in college. I also remember the first time I backed a 50' semi trailer. I thought I'd be there all day, but the guy teaching me gave me a few pointers, and I did a perfect 3 point turn on the first try. It totally surprised me how easy it was to back vs. the two horse trailer and pipe trailers that I had used in the past.

As far as abilities, if you can't back a truck to a trailer hitch, you just may need some practice.

Point taken. No arguments here. Can you really back up to a ball on the first try without having to get out of the vehicle at all? If so, I am impressed. It gives me hope that I won't have to take ten minutes to hitch a trailer every time for the rest of my life. I'm sure no matter what, I'll still have bumper pull trailers around.

For my needs, a base cab pickup is totally worthless. If you can see the GN ball in the bed of a crew cab pickup, I know some circuses who would want you for a side show.

I agree with you that a base cab truck is worthless in my circumstances. Mine is an extended cab. I have to stretch a little to see the ball, but it beats getting out to check where I'm at every few feet. I can see through the the rear view mirror, too.

Mostly I'm just excited for the time when my kids are old enough to guide me back to a hitch coupler. Then the whole thing is easy.

 

[jwstewar]

Point taken. No arguments here. Can you really back up to a ball on the first try without having to get out of the vehicle at all? If so, I am impressed. It gives me hope that I won't have to take ten minutes to hitch a trailer every time for the rest of my life. I'm sure no matter what, I'll still have bumper pull trailers around.

I can usually hit our camper (a 32' Jayco 32 BHDS pulled by a 1500 Silverado ) on the first time if I can go at it straight. I've got Mom's camper at the house doing some work to it so I have to go at it at about a 45 degree angle - I bought a magnetic I-ball camera to stick on the tailgate. I can also get my utility trailer lined up usually on the first time by watching the tongue jack and aligning it with the bolts in the center of the tailgate. However my 16' stock trailer takes a couple of shots. I can't see the jack post and it is a little narrower so I can't judge the sides with the truck as easily.

W/ our Suburban before the camera would usually take a couple of shots on the utility trailer as well. Only hooked it to Mom's camper once and I did OK on it. Haven't tried our camper as it is too heavy for it (OK, it is too heavy for me truck to, but I make do)

 

[Marveltone]

Some people are just better at backing up than others. I can usually get backed up where I need in the first shot. My Dad needs to back up, pull ahead, straighten up, back up again , back and forth, side to side, etc... Very painful to watch. It doesn't matter whether we're pulling 5th wheels of bumper pulls. I always back up (and hook up) better and faster than him. Once I get to where I need, I'll crack open a Coke, sit back and watch the show.

Overcompensation will get you every time! :thumbsup:

Joe

 

[HHR]

Overcompensation will get you every time!

I couldn't agree more.