"Trail" driveway: How do I improve it?

[zonta223]

The cheapeast and by far best way to fix areas with rotten clay is lime. And if you have a tiller for your tractor it will do the trick. Just scratch up the clay with scarifiers and spread out bag lime to the soil. Clay weighs about 100 lbs/cf, so do the math to add 4-6% lime by weight. Then mix in the lime with the scarifiers or tiller. Let it cook for 48hrs and mix again with water. Then roll it with your loaded tractor and problem solved. If you have sand then use portland cement, not sackcrete,

Was waiting for someone to suggest this. I used it on my clay driveway with great effect changed my driveway from a skating ring in winter to a hard safe driveway.
Just ripped the clay (use a box blade if you have one). Put down the cement.ripped again to mix it in. Graded it flat with scraper blade. Wet it down lightly with water. Run your tractor or loaded truck over the drive way to compact it.
If you have a cement works in your local area try ringing them and asking if they have any BCB cement...(Bulk Cementatious Binder)..Its what they use to back fill mines etc. You will probably be able to buy it cheaper than lime.

regards

 

[Chilly807]

The material he uses isn't quarry process but rather something he calls bank run. The stone is smooth. It's a little cheaper than the quarry stuff but most of the cost of stone up this way is in the trucking anyway.

It sounds like what we call river rock up here.

Sean

 

[SPYDERLK]

Was waiting for someone to suggest this. I used it on my clay driveway with great effect changed my driveway from a skating ring in winter to a hard safe driveway.
Just ripped the clay (use a box blade if you have one). Put down the cement.ripped again to mix it in. Graded it flat with scraper blade. Wet it down lightly with water. Run your tractor or loaded truck over the drive way to compact it.
If you have a cement works in your local area try ringing them and asking if they have any BCB cement...(Bulk Cementatious Binder)..Its what they use to back fill mines etc. You will probably be able to buy it cheaper than lime.

regards

Interesting. -- Doesnt the hard top layer heave and crack in the winter? I would imagine that would get mucky for a while when it thaws and you would easily cause ruts.
larry

 

[keegs]

It sounds like what we call river rock up here.

Sean

Yeah...sounds like the same stuff. The stone looks like it's spent some time in a riverbed or at the beach.

Hey ...just curious about those culvert headwalls in the pics...were they pre-cast ...or poured onsite?

 

[beppington]

I have to say that road is absolutely beautiful. I wouldn't want to do anything to it if it's been working for years. It's hard to get something that pretty by working at it.

Thank you! I agree! & would love to do nothing to it. But I already know the muddy spots are bad news & must be improved.

 

[EddieWalker]

Round River Rock is the very worse type of rock that you can use for a road. The goal of the rock is for it to lock together so that it doesn't move, and as it gets compacted, it locks together. Round and smooth rock will never do this. The only explination for anybody using round rock on a road is that they used it for fill material because they could get it cheaper then dirt.

Eddie

 

[AGGIE00]

Was waiting for someone to suggest this. I used it on my clay driveway with great effect changed my driveway from a skating ring in winter to a hard safe driveway.
Just ripped the clay (use a box blade if you have one). Put down the cement.ripped again to mix it in. Graded it flat with scraper blade. Wet it down lightly with water. Run your tractor or loaded truck over the drive way to compact it.
If you have a cement works in your local area try ringing them and asking if they have any BCB cement...(Bulk Cementatious Binder)..Its what they use to back fill mines etc. You will probably be able to buy it cheaper than lime.

regards

The problem with cement in clay is that the clay will not break down enough to get a good mix and because you don't want to rework cement it doesn't do the job that lime will. The first mix with lime will still have large clay balls, but after 48 hrs and a remix the clay will have broken down and stabilized. A 6" lime or cement subgrade section will not rut in the heaviest of rains to a cement truck or 20. The only problem with lime stabilized clay is that it must have a gravel surface to get any kind of traction when wet.

 

[AGGIE00]

Round River Rock is the very worse type of rock that you can use for a road. The goal of the rock is for it to lock together so that it doesn't move, and as it gets compacted, it locks together. Round and smooth rock will never do this. The only explination for anybody using round rock on a road is that they used it for fill material because they could get it cheaper then dirt.

Eddie

Bank run gravel like you are talking about that comes out of Maysfield has the right amount of large medium and fine aggregates and chinks together extremely well for roads. I love it, but the freight makes it unaffordable for me. We opted for a mixture of reclaimed base, bottom ash, and rap. The rap makes it a little hard to work, but with a little moisture and compaction it binds together well and when dry does not create dust. I am buying it at $10.00/cy delivered.

 

[keegs]

Yeah...this stuff is packed down pretty well....I don't think I'm going to have any issues with it...of course he moved it around and compacted it with a small dozer..:thumbsup:

Wish I could do the whole driveway in one shot but ...I'll get there.

 

[beppington]

The picture in my original Post #1 is a part of the trail that will not actually end up being part of the driveway, since that area is further back into the property, past where the house will be. But the rest of the trail looked very similar: A somewhat sunken 2-rut trail, sunken from years of the previous owner (farmer) driving on it, splashing the dirt/ mud off the drive up onto the banks ... as many neglected roads have happen (they seem to sink).

So, here are pics of what I did Sunday to the part of the trail that will be the driveway:

First stretch of the driveway, just in off the paved road (facing south in this pic):

First corner, ~400' in from the paved road (facing ~SW in this pic):

Another of that first corner, plus the 2nd straight of the driveway (facing west in this pic):

I spent about 4 hours dragging my new Land Pride GS1572 (6' wide) grading scraper up & down the ~600' long trail. At first I put the shanks all the way down & ripped up the whole thing real good, at a minimum width of 12' to about 14' in others (the 12' wide sections are where I'm limited due to large trees). I was able to remove many, many roots of all sizes from the trail this way. I also discovered that most of the trail is sand, which I think is good. And I was able to drag the clay areas into the sandy areas, to sort of mix them together so the clay is not all at just two concentrated problem areas. Thankfully there's much more sand than there is clay.

I was able to bring the higher road sides back onto the road itself so the trail & surrounding terrain is close to the same level now.

We finally got a little rain Monday, & I drove on this newly ripped up trail, & it seemed better, although the rain was somewhat light & it's been dry here for a long while now.

My plan now is to return this Saturday to establish a circle drive in front of the house location, rip that all up so it looks like these new pics, smooth the whole driveway out one last time, & then have a $437, 21-ton load of the scrap rock delivered, which I'll then spread with the GS.

Any thoughts?

 

[JB4310]

What size is scrap rock?

Every local has different names for their materials, from the pictures it doesn't look to bad at all. I would go with what we call small process, it's a mixture of 3/4" and under. Spreads and compacts well usually used as the last layer of fill, just under asphalt or concrete.

21 tons will go nowhere though, I've got 100 tons in a 200 ft driveway/ parking area. Even if you just do a 1-2 inch skim you will need much more for such a long driveway.

JB

 

[dmccarty]

ABC, which is what is used as road base in NC, and what I used on our driveway, should be about 3,000 pounds per yard aka 27 cubic feet.

A dual axle dump truck in my area will haul 15-16,000 pounds. Usually they were about 15K. So 15K is 5 yards of ABC.

I always use 25 cubic feet per yard since the math is easier and you will not miss 2 cf of gravel.

If you put down 12 inches of gravel 12.5 feet wide, a yard is going to cover a whopping TWO linear feet of driveway. A five yard load of ABC gets you TEN linear feet.

If the you put down 6 inches of ABC then you get TWENTY linear feet per dump truck load.

If you have the gravel 3 inches deep then the same dump truck load goes FORTY feet.

Three inches of gravel is not going to last long before it is pushed down in the clay when it rains or snows. Unless one uses fabric. Once pushed down in the clay it can be box bladed back up to the surface which is what I have done for years on our private road.

I would assume your rock is going to be about 3,000 pounds per yard so 21 tons is 7 yards. So if you spread the rock 12 inches deep and 12.5 feet wide, you will get 14 linear feet of drive way done.

If the rock is six inches deep you will go 28 linear feet.

Three inches of rock will go 56 linear feet 12.5 feet wide.

Why 12.5 feet? That covers the fabric I used that was 12 feet wide and the math works out a bit easier with 25 cf per yard.

Later,
Dan

 

[JB4310]

ABC, which is what is used as road base
I would assume your rock is going to be about 3,000 pounds per yard so 21 tons is 7 yards. So if you spread the rock 12 inches deep and 12.5 feet wide, you will get 14 linear feet of drive way done.

If the rock is six inches deep you will go 28 linear feet.

Three inches of rock will go 56 linear feet 12.5 feet wide.
Later,
Dan

I think since he ripped up and mixed the material on the driveway now and it doesn't look bad, he may just need 2-4 inches.
I don't have anywhere on my gravel drive or parking areas that's more than 4-6 inches deep total. But I am higher than the surrounding topography.

We get it by the ton right from the quarry which is 4 miles away, pay almost nothing for delivery, and only like $18. a ton for premium stuff. but a triax dump load does not go far, I can spread it with my CUT in a few minutes.

JB.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Round River Rock is the very worse type of rock that you can use for a road. The goal of the rock is for it to lock together so that it doesn't move, and as it gets compacted, it locks together. Round and smooth rock will never do this. Eddie

Good explanation.:thumbsup:
larry

 

[beppington]

ABC, which is what is used ...

Dan ... Wow, that is GREAT! Thanks! I've been wondering how much volume I'd get from a 21-ton load. Depressing, though, to find out how little

I think I'm going to establish now that this prep work is temporary, mainly to get heavy traffic in & out without getting stuck during home construction.

So, if I use some parts of your math with mine, & say I spread the material at only 2" thick (since some of the trail seems OK as-is), & assuming the truck really holds 21 tons (42,000 lbs - Can that be???), by your math I'd get only 60 linear feet at 12.5' wide ... Meaning with my 600' driveway length & a paltry 2" thickness, it's gonna take ten $437 truck loads = $4,370 total ... for a pretty darn thin layer.

Wow, maybe I need to just buy a dump truck & do the hauling myself.

Ouch.

 

[beppington]

What size is scrap rock?

Scrap rock here is the remains of whatever bins of whatever material the distributor has had in recently, including granite, limerock, stones, sands, etc. So, the sizes vary from fines to some sizable stones. They mix it altogether & sell it at what I believe is a cheaper price than the various materials individually.

 

[dmccarty]

I think since he ripped up and mixed the material on the driveway now and it doesn't look bad, he may just need 2-4 inches.
I don't have anywhere on my gravel drive or parking areas that's more than 4-6 inches deep total. But I am higher than the surrounding topography.

We get it by the ton right from the quarry which is 4 miles away, pay almost nothing for delivery, and only like $18. a ton for premium stuff. but a triax dump load does not go far, I can spread it with my CUT in a few minutes.

JB.

I have heard people say one needs to spread the gravel 12 inches deep. I do not understand that advice unless you own a quarry and a dump truck.

Over the years I have paid $50-75 a hour for the truck. The difference being fuel prices. I cannot remember exactly what ABC cost me last time I bought but I think it was $200 for 15-16 tons AND the truck time. Maybe a bit less if the truck could make two runs in 90 minutes.

Most of my driveway and parking areas have gravel four inches thick with the problem area that might be 200 feet long were it is only 2-3 inches thick. The problem area needs another 4 inches to get the driveway above grade. Otherwise the amount of gravel is just fine.

But I used fabric. Without fabric I would have had to regrade the driveway multiple times since we built.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Dan ... Wow, that is GREAT! Thanks! I've been wondering how much volume I'd get from a 21-ton load. Depressing, though, to find out how little
...

You think you are depressed now, wait until they dump the load and you see how small the pile is for 21 tons.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Good explanation.:thumbsup:
larry

Eddie is right too.

You also need the smaller rock and fines to lock the stones. We have an area right off the house that was going to be a patio but we ended up not pouring the slab for various reasons. For now, we park in that area. The stone on the ground is 67 stone which is stone 1-2 inches in size but no fines/dust. This does NOT lock together. Tis better than round stone but it does not lock up like ABC which has the fines/dust.

Just parking on this stuff has moved the stone around. Stopping has rutted up the gravel as has backing up the truck. Parking on the ABC gravel is just fine but the 67 stone, which is fine less, is problematic.

For some reason, some people in FLA like to use small river rock for driveways. Given that this stuff has to be brought in from out of state it has to be expensive. It does look nice but it just ruts up. If there are no edgers used to keep the gravel in place, the small stones get pushed into the grass. Once in the grass, the stones make fine projectiles when mowing.

Later,
Dan

 

[JB4310]

Scrap rock here is the remains of whatever bins of whatever material the distributor has had in recently, including granite, limerock, stones, sands, etc. So, the sizes vary from fines to some sizable stones. They mix it altogether & sell it at what I believe is a cheaper price than the various materials individually.

You don't want to big of stone if you are only going 2 inch. I'd say the 3/4 process. (around here that means 3/4 and under down to dust for compacting) another thing I don't know if someone mentioned it, yet but the millings, when they grind the asphalt road surfaces, that stuff packs good and is usually cheaper. more and more people want it now so the price is going up, at one time they would give it away.

You are paying a premium where you are, I pay less than 200. for a full triax load, these are the big quarry trucks, around ~20 ton. plus this is processed Basalt trap rock, the highest quality material you can get. I guess it's all about location and distance traveled.

JB.