Need help with Corduroy road

[inveresk]

You're talking about 4-5 loads of rock if 6" deep and 8' wide. That's not a lot but hauling it 3000' for a loader full will be slow work.

Talk this through with your machine man. Maybe he could haul a semi trailer back and fore so he makes less trips? He'll likely have some answer to the problem. If he does then I believe it's possible to get it roughed in in a day. Shame you can't truck the stone closer to the trail though.

 

[slowzuki]

7.5' wide, but you can't use the outer edges with fabric, you need to let your load on top spread to a wider footprint. Bigger the load, farther from the edge you need to be. An ATV could probably use the middle 5 -6 ft without any worry of damage.

I've done a few of them before. When I was young and broke, I built one about 200 ft long through a swamp using used synthetic carpet. Yes, carpet. It was 4 ft wide to get a ride on lawnmower through the swamp. I hauled the fill for the top with a wheelbarrow and later dump cart. There were 3 sections, one was built with the fabric over a corduroy section that had failed, one was directly laid on the swamp, and one was laid over a section that had 2-3" poles, 4 ft long driven vertically down into the swamp. All worked equally well. The trail is still there today but grown over.

Later I built some using cheap geotextile meant for erosion control, a type of filter fabric. It worked as well as the carpet but was more expensive.

BTW, don't try to use it before covering with fill. That nice little picture of the mini excavator on the fabric doesn't work like that in real swamp, the wheels or tracks will sink like trying to walk on a pool cover and the fabric wraps around and gets torn up.

With an ATV, you won't need much cover, but if you're trying to take a tractor on it, you will need rock etc.

 

[inveresk]

BTW, don't try to use it before covering with fill. That nice little picture of the mini excavator on the fabric doesn't work like that in real swamp, the wheels or tracks will sink like trying to walk on a pool cover and the fabric wraps around and gets torn up.

The shot was of an excavator on mud mats, not fabric. You're point is still well made though. Unlike mudmats, fabric does need covered.

 

[MikeD74T]

I've helped with two successful cordoroy roads. First was access to a deer feed plot that had been torn up in a logging job. About 75' long & ruts too deep for a large farm tractor. We placed 12' long softwood logs 4" to 8" in diameter crosswise with FEL & forks. Covered with 8" of gravel. Can cross it with a pickup & you'd never know it was ever muddy.

Helped my brother cross a swamp & small brook behind his house. He got about 10 bundles of softwood slabs from a sawmill which we placed crosswize in layers. He crossed it several times with his JD 4010 dozer until it was stable then with his TLB. That road was slippery because he never put anything over the slabs which are usually wet.

There's a section of US Route 3 in northern NH that is cordoroy. State DOT workers claim the wood's still sound after over 200 years

There's a commercial technique that uses 24" thick styrofoam blocks to make a floating road over peat bogs that's interesting. Making a mat of tires is also successful if properly tied togeather & covered adequately.

You might find this site usefull: http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/02251202/02251202.htm MikeD74T

 

[ultrarunner]

This is sounding like a nice solution.

I believe that stone is sold by the ton, at around $10 per ton delivered. At 1.25 tons/cu-yd, that's 22.5 tons, or $225. (Don't know if I should use small or large gravel or small, medium or large stone).

The best price I can get here for Class 2 Base is $50 a yard when buying full semi-load...

I'm envious of you guys with access to reasonable priced aggregate!

 

[josephny]

I'm starting to realize this is beyond me.

The idea of doing it while the ground is frozen means the paths are also covered in snow -- okay for dozer/excavator, but no commercial delivery dump truck will get in there.

And 4-5 loads will just make it prohibitively expensive (the rocks and the time to move/lay it).

I'm back to the idea of a corduroy road.

I'm fascinated by the idea of softwood slabs. Have no idea if they're available anywhere near me, but a quick google and I see they're inexpensive and sounds much easier than cutting down trees for logs. Of course, I still have the problem of getting them back to the swamp.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Ah, I'm starting to get the physics of it!

With a 15' wide roll, if I can cut it in half, I'll have 7.5' of textile.

While it's impossible to predict future needs, I'd be thrilled with just being able to get my basically 4' wide ATV over it. But, if it's easier to do a 6 or 7' wide road, so be it.

Maybe you can get a narrower or custom cut roll. 300' will maim several scissor hands. You will thank yourself for going comfortably wider than vehicle track width.
larry

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe you can get a narrower or custom cut roll. 300' will maim several scissor hands. You will thank yourself for going comfortably wider than vehicle track width.
larry

I've seen a machine to cut full widths of carpet on the roll smaller for hallways... seems someway to cut the material on the roll would be easier.

 

[Lloyd_E]

If you remove the peat will you get to hard clay or ground?
If so I would look at selling the peat or doing a partial trade of peat for labour/material.

Peat is an excellent material for gardeners and landscape businesses. With the ground frozen they could be hauling the stuff out now and each return trip they could be bringing loads of rock - various sizes - to stockpile for when you need to lay down the rock base.

 

[josephny]

If you remove the peat will you get to hard clay or ground?
If so I would look at selling the peat or doing a partial trade of peat for labour/material.

Peat is an excellent material for gardeners and landscape businesses. With the ground frozen they could be hauling the stuff out now and each return trip they could be bringing loads of rock - various sizes - to stockpile for when you need to lay down the rock base.

Wow, what a cool idea. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to look for the right party (and I'm 100 miles away) so I can't make that happen. I call it peat, but I have no idea (and doubt) if it's the right kind of peat. It's 100 years of rotting rhodendrum in a swampy-like area.

 

[6sunset6]

http://www.amleo.com/landscape-and-turf/c/70000000/filter/100000002649eq100000002289/
Link for fabric comes all widths. You can cut a roll with a chain saw.
Unrolled it cuts better with scissors than a knife. I have built 1000 feet of 6ft path over water soaked ground for a 3000# tractor. Works great You only need 4" of fill to hold it in place.
I ran into a problem with wetland regs. Turns out you are not allowed to place fill in a wetland , not even 4" on geotextile. I am thinking about switching to wood chips, but I think that is fill as well.
Wet land maps are on line but I was also told the wetlands and buffer spaces are bigger than the maps show. It's a judgment call because ignorance is no excuse and the fines are very severe.

 

[josephny]

http://www.amleo.com/landscape-and-turf/c/70000000/filter/100000002649eq100000002289/
Link for fabric comes all widths. You can cut a roll with a chain saw.
Unrolled it cuts better with scissors than a knife. I have built 1000 feet of 6ft path over water soaked ground for a 3000# tractor. Works great You only need 4" of fill to hold it in place.
I ran into a problem with wetland regs. Turns out you are not allowed to place fill in a wetland , not even 4" on geotextile. I am thinking about switching to wood chips, but I think that is fill as well.
Wet land maps are on line but I was also told the wetlands and buffer spaces are bigger than the maps show. It's a judgment call because ignorance is no excuse and the fines are very severe.

That's a great source -- thanks!

Just to be clear, this is fabric (soft, water permeable) -- this is the stuff that, when covered with rock, will create a snow-shoe effect (i.e., prevent sinking), right?

Which is better for my application: Woven or non-woven?

 

[radioman]

been thinking about your issue. I think you need a member of TBN to stop in and take a look. Any advice is better then speculation.

In my mind, to keep cost down, I like the idea of carpet. Contact a local carpet store for names of installers to contact them for used carpet. they tend to be 12ft wide. this can be your base to throw drivable materials to cover on top of carpet. It depends on what you have around you. Do you have sand,gravel, or lots of brush to make chips with? Do you have a local sign company or glass company nearby? quite often they have crates you can take apart a little and use as driving mats. Or if you have a local sawmill, you can ask for thier scrap slabs of wood and use that for your road. put curve side side and flat side up. I built a cabin out of slabwood when I was in highschool for a club house and loved working with it. that was 20 years ago and I was able to get all you can load in a pickup for 20 bucks. I have no idea how much it would be now.
after all all you want is a drivable path with ATV right?

 

[josephny]

been thinking about your issue. I think you need a member of TBN to stop in and take a look. Any advice is better then speculation.

In my mind, to keep cost down, I like the idea of carpet. Contact a local carpet store for names of installers to contact them for used carpet. they tend to be 12ft wide. this can be your base to throw drivable materials to cover on top of carpet. It depends on what you have around you. Do you have sand,gravel, or lots of brush to make chips with? Do you have a local sign company or glass company nearby? quite often they have crates you can take apart a little and use as driving mats. Or if you have a local sawmill, you can ask for thier scrap slabs of wood and use that for your road. put curve side side and flat side up. I built a cabin out of slabwood when I was in highschool for a club house and loved working with it. that was 20 years ago and I was able to get all you can load in a pickup for 20 bucks. I have no idea how much it would be now.
after all all you want is a drivable path with ATV right?

Thank you so much for additional brainpower! While far, far from life or death, this is an important project for me.

I'd love a TBN member's help. Anyone in Eastern Sullivan County (15 minutes from Ellenville, 15 minutes from exit 112 off route 17)?

The fabric site has a role of 8' x 300' 2.8 oz non-woven fabric for about $200 delivered. That leaves purchasing the rock, moving it to the back woods, and laying down (and some clearing of fallen trees/rhodedendrum).

While I don't have gravel on my property, there's a small hill not far (100'-200') from the path site (on my property) that is dirt (mostly clay, small rocks) that can be used to cover the fabric -- if that will also create the snow-shoe effect (there's go to be a better name).

And, yes, all I really need is a 5' wide atv path -- and certainly doesn't need to be one that qualifies as smooth or perfectly dry.

 

[6sunset6]

I used the non woven 4 oz. there is shipping.
I am in Dutchess county. Not too far from you.
If you want to come look PM me. Might want to wait till the snow melts though.

 

[josephny]

Just an idea -- wonder what everyone thinks about this:

What about laying either wooden or plastic pallets right on top of the swamp?

I found dixiemat.com and saw the pictures of very long roads built out of their wooden matts on muddy ground.

Will this work?

 

[MikeD74T]

Wood pallets contain nails, nothing I'd make a road from unless burried well. In the early days of snowmobiling in NH pallets were used in trail wet spots, usually created a mess if not removed at the end of each season, which they never were. They tend to break into sharp spear like shards usually being made from thin hardwood. However if kept underwater they might well outlast you. MikeD74t

 

[dave1949]

Ditto on the nail problem.

Have you considered a raised wooden bridge? Lots of pieces but all hand/ATV transportable. If you could score some cheap posts/old utility poles, it could be worth looking into. One challenge would be to make it hold up to frost heaving, or build it in such a way that you could re-level it as needed I suppose.
Dave.

 

[josephny]

Wood pallets contain nails, nothing I'd make a road from unless burried well. In the early days of snowmobiling in NH pallets were used in trail wet spots, usually created a mess if not removed at the end of each season, which they never were. They tend to break into sharp spear like shards usually being made from thin hardwood. However if kept underwater they might well outlast you. MikeD74t

Makes perfect sense not to use the wood ones.

The plastic ones don't have the nail/spear problem, but they are permanent and not particularly nice to fill the woods with.

Does my math make sense for gravel:

400' x 5' x 0.5' = 1000 cu-ft = 37 cu-yds @ 1.25 tons/cu-yd = 46 tons of material.

Holy cow! I haven't priced material, but a quick glance and it's in the $20-$30/ton range -- that's $1000-$1,500 just for the stone.

Is my thinking right on this?

 

[josephny]

Ditto on the nail problem.

Have you considered a raised wooden bridge? Lots of pieces but all hand/ATV transportable. If you could score some cheap posts/old utility poles, it could be worth looking into. One challenge would be to make it hold up to frost heaving, or build it in such a way that you could re-level it as needed I suppose.
Dave.

I have no experience building such a thing, and the path is between 300-400 feet long. I assume the process would be to drive posts into the ground and build the bridge platform on top, pretty much lying on the ground. It sounds good (ATV transportable is a big plus), but probably too complicated for me.