Towing - How

[Diamondpilot]

Yep, here is a perfect example of the guys doing just that across the pond.

YouTube - Renault 5 Caravan Crash

Chris

 

[JDgreen227]

I have seen that "Long, Long Trailer" movie several times, have it on VHS. What I remember most of all about it is when the guy first starts towing the trailer he gives this really anxious look over his shoulder at the bulk of the thing behind him...

I have an '85 Crown Victoria in my barn, purchased it new, going to restore it someday...it has the 5.0 V8 and factory towing package, rated for 5000 pounds, but never pulled anywhere near that much. My current car is an '04 Lesabre, it has much more power than the Ford does but the unibody limits the tow rating to a half ton. Engine is plenty strong, just hampered by a weak driveline and flimsy body structure. I really miss the old full frame cars for the reason they were built better, todays unibodies are marvels of weathersealing, and lack of rattles, very rust resistant but not worth a darn for towing. Too bad Detroit didn't build the body quality of todays new cars on full framed models....

 

[slowzuki]

Its funny to see tow ratings, a VW TDI Passat has something like 3 x the tow rating in europe than it does in North America, same car. They have their ratings based on maximum grade for decent with braked and unbraked trailers.

I lived for a while in Europe while working on a project... I was amazed to see little cars by US standards towing large travel trailers... true, the trailers were light weight... but still a lot of surface area to get blown around.

It became such a problem that many 2 lane mountain passes have severe travel trailer restrictions...

 

[ultrarunner]

Its funny to see tow ratings, a VW TDI Passat has something like 3 x the tow rating in europe than it does in North America, same car. They have their ratings based on maximum grade for decent with braked and unbraked trailers.

Yes... and many of the small Diesels have a surprising amount of torque.

A friend bought a new BMW 325it wagon and went to BMW to get a factory hitch for a singe jet ski... he was told by BMW it would void his warranty as the vehicle has no tow rating...

Funny thing is he bought the car European Delivery and just about every 325it he saw in Germany had a factory BMW hitch... he bought one in Germany and installed it when the car was state side.

He never had any problems... and if he did, he was ready to say how can BMW not warrant OEM???

 

[slowzuki]

Yeah the tow ratings are a bit funny, my 2001 F350 has a tow rating of something ridiculously low like 7000 lb. The exact same truck, with the v10 or diesel with low gears, the tow rating jumps to like 15,000 lbs so something like that. The brakes are identical, axles and frame identical etc. From what I've found its because there is a steep hill start and acceleration test to pass to get the tow rating. I don't live in the hills, I don't care if I can't rip from 0-60 in 20 sec, so I ignore the tow rating.

 

[not2old]

Yeah the tow ratings are a bit funny, my 2001 F350 has a tow rating of something ridiculously low like 7000 lb. The exact same truck, with the v10 or diesel with low gears, the tow rating jumps to like 15,000 lbs so something like that. The brakes are identical, axles and frame identical etc. From what I've found its because there is a steep hill start and acceleration test to pass to get the tow rating. I don't live in the hills, I don't care if I can't rip from 0-60 in 20 sec, so I ignore the tow rating.

The factory considers possible warranty claims while determining towing ratings. If they didn't, on older trucks, a 460 gas (Ford as example) would have the same rating as the diesel as all suspension, brakes, tires etc. are identical and the power is similar. It is 2000lbs less. However,the 460 will carry more than a diesel as the gvw is the same and the gas engine is lighter. Here in British Columbia, the factory rated tow capacity (gross combined) is the law. Just ask all the U.S. visitors who got charged while towing big fifths. They won't let you move it at more than 10% overloaded. Your problem, they don't care. You might not get stopped, but don't get into an accident where the police or our government insurance is involved.

 

[JDgreen227]

The factory considers possible warranty claims while determining towing ratings. If they didn't, on older trucks, a 460 gas (Ford as example) would have the same rating as the diesel as all suspension, brakes, tires etc. are identical and the power is similar. It is 2000lbs less. However,the 460 will carry more than a diesel as the gvw is the same and the gas engine is lighter. Here in British Columbia, the factory rated tow capacity (gross combined) is the law. Just ask all the U.S. visitors who got charged while towing big fifths. They won't let you move it at more than 10% overloaded. Your problem, they don't care. You might not get stopped, but don't get into an accident where the police or our government insurance is involved.

I read a story in Trailer Life one time that described a pickup owner who had an accident, someone pulled out in front of him and he was towing a travel trailer that weighed far in excess of what the tow rating of his truck was, he couldn't stop in time, the attorney for the driver of the car that pulled in front of the truck had the truck and trailer weighed and then claimed the truck driver was driving recklessly because he was towing a trailer that was in excess of the factory tow rating. Not sure if it ever happened though.

I had a '90 Ford F150 with a 4.9 six and automatic, 3.08 gears, factory tow rating was 5000 lbs, 10,000 lbs GCWR. Put the truck on a scale one time with all gear in back, fuel tanks full, cap, toolbox loaded, etc. Scale said 5,020 lbs. Towed a Jayco 30 foot TT, scale read 6345 with gear and LP tanks full. I was actually almost 1400 pounds over the factory GCWR. If I had the 5.0 V8 or 3.55 axle instead, GCWR was 12,000 lbs. factory and it would have been legal. WHY? More power or a lower axle ratio means no difference in how well you can turn or stop. I was still always extra careful towing because I didn't know if the story in TL actually happened or not. Any comments?

 

[slowzuki]

The F150 with the inline six I think had the 8.8 axle? The v-8's tended to have a heavier axle did they not?

Locally you are ticketed based on registered weight of tow vehicle and trailer and if you exceed any axle weights.

I would say sometimes the factory considers warranty. Its not always the limiting factor. Just like the original rear axle rating on my truck is exactly the sum of the original rear tire rating. I know the axle itself is rated to 9000 lbs, the rims are something like 3600 lb each. Current tires limit me to about 3400 lbs each.

 

[JDgreen227]

The F150 with the inline six I think had the 8.8 axle? The v-8's tended to have a heavier axle did they not?

Locally you are ticketed based on registered weight of tow vehicle and trailer and if you exceed any axle weights.

I would say sometimes the factory considers warranty. Its not always the limiting factor. Just like the original rear axle rating on my truck is exactly the sum of the original rear tire rating. I know the axle itself is rated to 9000 lbs, the rims are something like 3600 lb each. Current tires limit me to about 3400 lbs each.

The F150's all used the 8.8 rear axle, regardless of six or V8 that year, they began putting that size axle under trucks starting in '83. THe bigger F250 and F350 models used the bigger 10.25 inch rear axle in starting in '83.

 

[JDgreen227]

The F150 with the inline six I think had the 8.8 axle? The v-8's tended to have a heavier axle did they not?

Locally you are ticketed based on registered weight of tow vehicle and trailer and if you exceed any axle weights.

I would say sometimes the factory considers warranty. Its not always the limiting factor. Just like the original rear axle rating on my truck is exactly the sum of the original rear tire rating. I know the axle itself is rated to 9000 lbs, the rims are something like 3600 lb each. Current tires limit me to about 3400 lbs each.

Oh yes, forgot to mention, tire size was same on both 6 and V8, and the 6 actually weighed less than the V8 trucks.

 

[ultrarunner]

Anyone know what the procedure is when your tow vehicle and trailer predate tow ratings or GCVW?

I was told by a retired law enforcement officer the load ratings on the tire is the only thing they can go by...

 

[JDgreen227]

Anyone know what the procedure is when your tow vehicle and trailer predate tow ratings or GCVW?

I was told by a retired law enforcement officer the load ratings on the tire is the only thing they can go by...

Interesting query...tire load ratings will vary according to pressure and number of plies, how does a law enforcement officer make a decision when they don't know the weight of the towing vehicle or load? You could modify a half ton truck by using wheel adapters to install 3/4 ton rims and tires which have a much higher load rating but the rest of the truck doesn't get any stronger. Seems like a half-elbow method to determine it, IMO.

 

[ultrarunner]

Interesting query...tire load ratings will vary according to pressure and number of plies, how does a law enforcement officer make a decision when they don't know the weight of the towing vehicle or load? You could modify a half ton truck by using wheel adapters to install 3/4 ton rims and tires which have a much higher load rating but the rest of the truck doesn't get any stronger. Seems like a half-elbow method to determine it, IMO.

They carry portable scales that go under the wheels... and tire load ratings are on the sidewall.

What else can you really go on when the vehicle predates manufacturer's Tow/Weight Ratings?

Fooling around with antique cars since age 12... I've been stopped a few times over the years... mostly just so the officer can get a better look... never cited.

Had the kids in the Model A Rumble Seat for a town parade... main street was blocked-off by the Highway Patrol... as we left the parade route and officer was directing and my 5 year old niece proudly announced she was riding without a carseat... officer just smiled.

I imagine it is the gray area between being "Grandfathered" or not when it comes to the vehicle code... and/or how familiar law enforcement is... most don't know any commercial vehicle before a certain year is exempt from weight fees and commercial tags... 1936 I believe.

My Sears Heilite Tent Trailer always gets strange looks... it is single wheel with two 1" trailer hitch balls...

 

[brokenot]

I had a '90 Ford F150 with a 4.9 six and automatic, 3.08 gears, factory tow rating was 5000 lbs, 10,000 lbs GCWR. Put the truck on a scale one time with all gear in back, fuel tanks full, cap, toolbox loaded, etc. Scale said 5,020 lbs. Towed a Jayco 30 foot TT, scale read 6345 with gear and LP tanks full. I was actually almost 1400 pounds over the factory GCWR. If I had the 5.0 V8 or 3.55 axle instead, GCWR was 12,000 lbs. factory and it would have been legal. WHY? More power or a lower axle ratio means no difference in how well you can turn or stop.

There could be any number of reasons for that. Perhaps the available gear ratio in the automatic transmission, coupled with the rear axle ratio, put the engine too close to the "lugging threshold" when towing, resulting in constant downshifting/upshifting under load. Every time an automatic changes gears, clutch packs are engaged/disengaged. All of those engagements/disengagements are "softened up" to make shifts less harsh. The softening up of the shifts basically means that the clutch packs apply/release hydraulically usually via an accumulator, or through the use of an orifice. So every time a shift happens, wear happens as the clutches *slip* into engagement/disengagement. When I'm towing at anywhere near any of my vehicles' max tow ratings, I'm usually not keeping up with traffic, and it's intentional.....I'd rather take a few minutes extra getting somewhere, instead of toeing the "lugging threshold" speed that results in the constant shifting. Vehicle manufacturers can't control how their vehicles are driven, so sometimes it seems like they play with tow ratings specs and such instead.

While the 4.9 produced good torque down low, at highway speeds the 5.0's higher rpm power curve could have made up for it, resulting in less of a tendency for it to lug down, which created a need for more throttle, and more downshifting/upshifting. A lower rear axle ratio would accomplish the same thing.

Turning or stopping is another issue altogether. The stopping thing is an easy one. When properly equipped with a brake controller and with the trailer braking system functioning as it should, the extra 2K of weight would be of little or no consequence. Turning with a heavier load is *kind of* left up to the common sense of the vehicle operator.

 

[RobertN]

Pictures!

My Sears Heilite Tent Trailer always gets strange looks... it is single wheel with two 1" trailer hitch balls...

 

[tcartwri]

While the 4.9 produced good torque down low, at highway speeds the 5.0's higher rpm power curve could have made up for it, resulting in less of a tendency for it to lug down, which created a need for more throttle, and more downshifting/upshifting. A lower rear axle ratio would accomplish the same thing.

The 4.9 was a much superior work motor than either the 5.0 or the 5.8 V8's. The reason the 4.9 was rated lower, was because of the light duty 5 speed they put in the F150's.

Towed my race car for several years with one of those straight six F150's. It worked very very well.

 

[not2old]

Anyone know what the procedure is when your tow vehicle and trailer predate tow ratings or GCVW?

I was told by a retired law enforcement officer the load ratings on the tire is the only thing they can go by...

In British Columbia, they are much more lenient with this but you are talking about towing with vehicles more than 20 years old. |In this case they almost ignore GCVW and look at GVW, axel and tire loads. All trailers over 1500 lbs. require operating brakes.

 

[ultrarunner]

Pictures!

Here you go...

Heilite Trailers were built of aircraft quality aluminum by the Heilite Manufacturing company founded in 1953 in Lodi California. They have doors for access to the storage area under the sleeping area.

The entire canvas is water proofed and folds into the top of the trailer and if need be could be removed and the trailer used as a utility trailer.

The two small trailer hitches that mount to 1 inch trailer balls. The data plate makes no mention of Weight or Load Capacity.

Here's a link to the a view of the undercarriage.

http://www.singlewheel.com/Auto/Heilite/HeilSamba/1650253.jpg

 

[slowzuki]

We used to tow hay wagons with 5 tons of hay on them with one. It was a 4 spd std with the bull low though. You could hear the lifters clacking away with the rpm down around 500 dragging the load up over one of the hills. You had to put at least 50 bales on the truck to have enough traction to get started at one of the stop signs along the way.

The 4.9 was a much superior work motor than either the 5.0 or the 5.8 V8's. The reason the 4.9 was rated lower, was because of the light duty 5 speed they put in the F150's.

Towed my race car for several years with one of those straight six F150's. It worked very very well.

 

[slowzuki]

The 1998 F150 started the F150 heavy version that has a 10.25 semi floater axle in the rear. I think they call it the 7700 kg gcvwr option up here now. It was to bridge the gap since the Superduties are all really 1 tons, just some have softer springs.

The F150's all used the 8.8 rear axle, regardless of six or V8 that year, they began putting that size axle under trucks starting in '83. THe bigger F250 and F350 models used the bigger 10.25 inch rear axle in starting in '83.