Oil & Fuel Does this sound like gelled fuel?

[Z-Michigan]

I have a JD 5105 utility tractor, 2006 model, bought new in early 2007. It has been mostly trouble-free and until recently has always started. For the first two years of ownership I used it a lot, but for various reasons I probably used it only about 30 hours in 2009. I used it with no problems in November (weather in 50's), then tried to start it up again about a week ago (January) on a 20-25 degree day. It would start and run for maybe 20-30 seconds at idle, then die. It would die almost immediately if I advanced the throttle. It did this two or three times and then wouldn't start up again, at all. It was still cranking OK. I also tried heating the engine area with a propane radiant heater for close to an hour, and that made no difference. I also added 5 gallons of fuel that was thoroughly treated with anti-gel (Power Service) and this didn't make a difference.

I tried again on a day that was around 34 degrees and it wouldn't start.

I used very little fuel last year and the fuel in it was summer fuel, purchased probably in July. I don't remember adding any anti-gel or winter fuel to it, until after I had trouble starting it last week. My guess is that the un-treated summer diesel gelled, that my fuel filter had some fuel that was still liquid but I used that up in the idle time, and now my fuel lines are full of either air or gelled fuel. The treated fuel in the tank probably has not had a way to get into the fuel lines and filter.

Does my guess sound correct?

Should I just wait for a 40+ day? Will I need to re-prime the fuel system based on my description of what has been done? Any tips are greatly appreciated. I have read the owner's manual on fuel system issues but it doesn't seem to address my problem.

 

[JB4310]

I'm no expert but doubt it's gelling, If you used it so little maybe check air filter, just a wild guess but maybe some critters got in there and made a nest?

That is a good theory about sucking up the gel into the lines, could be possible I guess, since I think it's the impurities that would gel so after it warmed there might not be much good fuel in there???

I've got old summer fuel in one machine and it starts right up, it's older high hour machine that's an ornery starter anyway but still starts even in the 20's

JB.

 

[sunnyside360]

I doubt very much if it is gelled fuel at 34 deg or even a few deg lower. It could be frozen water in the fuel filter or line. I've put a heating pad around the filter for gelled fuel to get the tractor started but that was at or around zero deg.

 

[TBDonnelly]

Could be wax plugging up the fuel filter.....change the fuel filter. Power Service also makes a '911' product in a Red bottle which is more of an emergency type fuel additive. The regular Power Service in the white bottle is more of an ongoing maintenence additive.

Don

 

[neevlk]

I have a JD 5105 utility tractor, 2006 model, bought new in early 2007. It has been mostly trouble-free and until recently has always started. For the first two years of ownership I used it a lot, but for various reasons I probably used it only about 30 hours in 2009. I used it with no problems in November (weather in 50's), then tried to start it up again about a week ago (January) on a 20-25 degree day. It would start and run for maybe 20-30 seconds at idle, then die. It would die almost immediately if I advanced the throttle. It did this two or three times and then wouldn't start up again, at all. It was still cranking OK. I also tried heating the engine area with a propane radiant heater for close to an hour, and that made no difference. I also added 5 gallons of fuel that was thoroughly treated with anti-gel (Power Service) and this didn't make a difference.

I tried again on a day that was around 34 degrees and it wouldn't start.

I used very little fuel last year and the fuel in it was summer fuel, purchased probably in July. I don't remember adding any anti-gel or winter fuel to it, until after I had trouble starting it last week. My guess is that the un-treated summer diesel gelled, that my fuel filter had some fuel that was still liquid but I used that up in the idle time, and now my fuel lines are full of either air or gelled fuel. The treated fuel in the tank probably has not had a way to get into the fuel lines and filter.

Does my guess sound correct?

Should I just wait for a 40+ day? Will I need to re-prime the fuel system based on my description of what has been done? Any tips are greatly appreciated. I have read the owner's manual on fuel system issues but it doesn't seem to address my problem.

I have a 2004 317 John Deere skid loader acted exactly the same way. Temp also in 20"s didnt think it was near cold enough to gel but put knipco on engine compartment and changed fuel filter never had luck not changing filter once fuel has gelled up.Had a heck of a time getting started again even after priming the system!
After all that still had the same problem.Next step there was also an in line filter I changed ,solved the problem. Ended up doing this twice, been a year havent had a problem since Must have been a bad batch of fuel.Dont know if this will help or not.

 

[brin]

Have you changed your fuel filter lately ?

 

[Z-Michigan]

I haven't changed the fuel filter lately; have less than 200 hours total and I don't think it's yet indicated. However, with the comments about that it sounds like a good place to start.

I looked at the "Diesel 911" hoping it would fix my problem, but it didn't look very useful after reading all the directions and statements about what it doesn't do. If you're taking the fuel filter off anyway (required for Diesel 911), why not just fill it with anti-gel treated fuel instead of with Diesel 911?

 

[etcallhome]

My would rev up but when I was using my hoe and running around 2200 rpm sometimes it would just all but quit running. Then rpms would go right back up to normal outside temp 40-50 I hadn't added anything to fuel and we did have a few cold days now in the 20's ,this was back in Oct-Nov time frame...So I added power service and it was still acting up Had somewhere around 200hr... so I changed fuel filter been fine everysince I would chg fuel filter......

 

[AKfish]

Most JD's have 2 fuel filters. Change out both (well, just clean the 1st one at the tank). Did you see anything that remotely looked like "cloudy honey"? Or suspended material that appeared a little like "cotton"?

That would be parafin. And that's what gums up the fuel system.

Tow your tractor into the garage or shop. Turn up the heat to 72 degrees and wait. (When the green dough begins to rise - toss into the oven.. )

If you can't get it to a heated shop - fill your filters with a mix of 911 and diesel. I build a makeshift shroud and heat with a NipCo type heater. After an hour or so - try the starter.

If your tractor has been sitting for an extended period of time, outside, with summer blend fuel and it's been cold - below zero - the parafin will gell - and will remain in the fuel system until the machine warms up to 40-50 degrees for several days. (I'd bet your tractor has seen 50 degrees for a few months..)

Good luck.

AKfish

 

[RickB]

If you have 200 hours on the fuel filter, replace it. Trying to dissolve the paraffin trapped in the filter media with 911 or a similar treatment might work, but you really are just asking for aggravation. Replace the filter, treat the fuel, and move on.

 

[mfreund]

When mine did that it must had had water in the fuel. After changing the filter,adding 911 to the already power serve treated fuel. I found the metal 90 degree fitting where fuel comes out of the tank had a ice chunk. I tried to drain the fuel out of the tractor and none would come out. Be very careful about applying heat as my tank was plastic and fuel lines were rubber. Hit it for 2 seconde and try to start it. When it dies hit it again for 2 sec and try to restart. keep doing until it cleans up and runs.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

When mine did that it must had had water in the fuel. After changing the filter,adding 911 to the already power serve treated fuel. I found the metal 90 degree fitting where fuel comes out of the tank had a ice chunk. I tried to drain the fuel out of the tractor and none would come out. Be very careful about applying heat as my tank was plastic and fuel lines were rubber. Hit it for 2 seconde and try to start it. When it dies hit it again for 2 sec and try to restart. keep doing until it cleans up and runs.

Yep, I had water/ice problems with my F935...ever since then I make a habit of running a small dose of Power Service 911 in the fall before freezing weather. Regular power service is a great anti-gel, but it doesnt remove water.

Back on topic....while it could be parrafin in your filter (I change fuel filters every 100 hrs) one thing it COULD be is algae in the fuel.... Cure is the same...treat fuel, change filter, clean strainer.....if it is Algae, buy 2/3 filters as you'll need em ....

 

[wheels910]

I know what the problem is. We fixed a 5205 two weeks ago exhibiting the same symptoms. Turns out, poor design by Deere. You have a little water in your fuel. It is freezing in your return line. This creates back pressure on the injection pump. The tractor will start and run a few seconds until the pressure from the return line won't let the pump function properly anymore.

Relocate the return fuel line to the top of the tank.
Here are instructions and a list of parts you will need:

Check your serial number, but I'll bet it falls in this range. All part numbers are Deere numbers.
===========
===========
Model 5105 and 5205 Utility Tractor with the following PIN range.

LV5105B (110001-210593)

LV5205B (120001-220624)

Complaint or Symptom:

The engine will not start or stalls when the temperature is below freezing (32ｺ F or 0ｺ C).

Problem or Situation:


The fuel return line is at the lowest point of the fuel tank.
Water trapped in the tank will freeze and block the fuel return line.
Solution:

SIB: 01-3-20-1 provides an instruction and photos to re-route the fuel return line as follows:

Route the return line to the top of the fuel tank and add an elbow fitting.


Drain fuel from tank.

Cut the return line at bottom of tank 76mm (3.00 In) long.

Plug end of hose remaining on tank with an R128357 headed pin and AR48236 screw clamp.

Drill 13mm (17/32 In) hole in the top of fuel tank at the location shown in the SIB.
NOTE: Do not allow plastic chips to fall inside the tank.


Install M66005 rubber grommet into drilled hole.

Add grease to large end of R119551 elbow and press into ID of grommet until body of elbow is resting on grommet.

Remove the remaining fuel return hose and replace it with a new 2950mm (116 In) long TY22551 Fuel Return Hose.

The routing and banding of the new hose should follow the old hose from the engine to the fuel tank.

Install return hose onto tube at the rear of the engine and clamp with AR48236 screw clamp at each end.

Route the return hose up from the bottom of tank between the rear of the ROPS and the fuel tank.

Install return hose onto elbow in tank and secure with AR48236 Screw Clamp.
Parts:

2 - AR48236 Screw clamps

1 - R128357 Headed pin

1 - R119551 Elbow

1 - TY22551 Hose

1 - M66005 Grommet



Additional Information:

The revised fuel return hose routing has been incorporated on tractors after the PIN listed above.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I know what the problem is. We fixed a 5205 two weeks ago exhibiting the same symptoms. Turns out, poor design by Deere. You have a little water in your fuel. It is freezing in your return line. This creates back pressure on the injection pump. The tractor will start and run a few seconds until the pressure from the return line won't let the pump function properly anymore.

Great to know, makes perfect sense......BUT if I had an affected machine I wouldnt be performing this fix...IMO its just a band aid...not the cure.
The true FIX for the issue is keeping water out of your fuel...regardless of return location, tractor brand, tube size, etc... you should NOT have water in your fuel. Water in the fuel could lead to many more expensive problems (smoked fuel pumps, etc)...

 

[Gizmo2]

Some one say paraffin...

I had to clean the filter twice, the second time I opened up the fuel line and let the fuel run into a container before installing the filter again. This happened on a Sunday so I cleaned the filter and all with dry gas (TWICE) .

 

[classic]

I've had the problem before with other tractors. I little ice forms in an elbow coming off the tank and it will not run. Added gas line antifreeze, let sit a while and problem solved. yes I said GASLINE antifreeze. I've used it several times. One bottle in a full tank of fuel. Its not enough to hurt anything.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I know what the problem is. We fixed a 5205 two weeks ago exhibiting the same symptoms. Turns out, poor design by Deere. You have a little water in your fuel. It is freezing in your return line. This creates back pressure on the injection pump. The tractor will start and run a few seconds until the pressure from the return line won't let the pump function properly anymore.

Relocate the return fuel line to the top of the tank.
Here are instructions and a list of parts you will need:

Check your serial number, but I'll bet it falls in this range. All part numbers are Deere numbers.
===========
===========
Model 5105 and 5205 Utility Tractor with the following PIN range.

LV5105B (110001-210593)

LV5205B (120001-220624)

Complaint or Symptom:

The engine will not start or stalls when the temperature is below freezing (32ｺ F or 0ｺ C).

That is extremely interesting! Is that an official Deere notice or warranty item? I think I have a couple weeks left on warranty (have to check) and might want to see if I can get the dealer to do all that if it's something official.

 

[wheels910]

That is extremely interesting! Is that an official Deere notice or warranty item? I think I have a couple weeks left on warranty (have to check) and might want to see if I can get the dealer to do all that if it's something official.

It is a warrantable solution for the 5105 and 5205 tractors listed in the serial number range in my original post. Local dealer can find the information in DTAC. Basically, it's not a mass recall like the auto industry, but a recognition of a problem and willingness to take care of it if you encounter this problem of not starting in temperatures under 32 F.

Thanks

 

[mfreund]

I've had the problem before with other tractors. I little ice forms in an elbow coming off the tank and it will not run. Added gas line antifreeze, let sit a while and problem solved. yes I said GASLINE antifreeze. I've used it several times. One bottle in a full tank of fuel. Its not enough to hurt anything.

It has the same ingredient. Alcohol

Did you get it going and what was the fix?

 

[classic]

Yes it got it going. The fix is waterless fuel. But I've had to use deicer since caused by condensation. Works every time.