Whole house backup gen set?

/ Whole house backup gen set? #1  

WBWI

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SE Wisconsin
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Kubota L3130
Anyone off the grid or otherwise have any experience with a Cummins Onan backup generator. Looking to add a backup generator to my residential home and my neighbor, an electrician by trade, recommended the Cummins Onan RS 12000 NG powered. Most reviews I've seen so far on the web are negative however I'm educated enough to know that you usually hear the bad side of a product more often than you hear the good side. I figured the TBN'ers living off the grid would have researched this topic more than the rest of us. Any comments would be appreciated.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #2  
Cummins / Onan are two of the best names you can get. I can't speak about the specific model but don't see a problem.

I use a Miller Bobcat 250NT 10KW unit which is a portable generator and AC/DC welder. I plug it in manually and backfeed my panel through a safety cutoff switch. That means I can't run the house off the generator unless the main disconnect to street power is off. My house is small (abt. 1000 sq ft.) and 10KW runs everything. Depending on your load the 12KW recommended by your electrician will probably do just fine.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #3  
My only experience is with my Generac 15kw LP unit I installed 4 years ago. 90+ hours on it so far and has been perfect.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #4  
I am shopping for a residential generator as well. Generac seems to be a bigger player in the residential market. I plan to go with Generac.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #5  
I am shopping for a residential generator as well. Generac seems to be a bigger player in the residential market. I plan to go with Generac.

My only recommendation is to pony up the extra $$$ for the aluminum enclosure, my steel on is rusting already...the aluminum was not available when I bought mine.

I bought mine (and a 7kw unit for my Aunt) from Norwall Power Systems and highly recommend them.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set?
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Generac is made in my "backyard" and the company doesn't have a great reputation around here. I'm not saying that the product is bad, just the company. Electrical distributor said Cummins Onan should outlast the big box store brands. I'm just trying to make an informed decision.... keep the comments coming. Good or bad...
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #7  
A generator big enough to run everything means it also costs more than one running most things...

The 1800 rpm Onan Cummins Gensets are great... I take care of a couple and zero problems... except the smaller sizes can no longer be sold here in CA...
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #8  
A few questions If I may before I comment,, #1 How often do you lose your power,,,What size service do you have on your house that the gen. will be serving ?? The reason I ask is we install 200 units a year and the load you will be serving and for how long is important to any decision..
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #9  
A few questions If I may before I comment,, #1 How often do you lose your power,,,What size service do you have on your house that the gen. will be serving ?? The reason I ask is we install 200 units a year and the load you will be serving and for how long is important to any decision..

What would you recommend in the 15KW range on a house with a 400 AMP service? I have a 5KW server load that needs to be maintained as well as a geothermal system I would like to keep running. Together they use around 8KW. A well pump would need to run part of the time. The remainder would be to keep the lights, refrigerator and freezer running.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #10  
I have an Onan 45KW GGFC on propane that I installed at my old house, and then brought with me when I moved into my new house 2 years ago. Random thoughts:
Be careful comparing the specs. The Onan I have is rated as being able to take the full load in one step, and the 45KW rating is a continuous rating at max temp which is over 110 F. Some of the Generacs have a rating that is a peak rating for some amount of time, and then they derate to a lower rating. That's sorta OK for house hold use, since you need some cushion for starting compressors on air conditioning and the like. But you need to know what the long term output of the generator is, and check for derating based on ambient temperature. You'd hate to get a 15KW, find that it's good for 12KW, but derates to 10.5 KW when it's 102 degrees outside. Generac is OK, just focus on what the continuous power output on a hot day is.
Aluminum housing sounds good, my housing has rust problems starting and I try to keep it clean.
In the Onan line, and many others, you may be able to choose what the control panel at the generator looks like. I have the one that has lots of lights on it that tell you why it's unhappy. These are often called the 12-light NFPA 110 systems.
After Hurricane Fran in NC in 1996, I decided to get the generator. It took a year for prices to come down. I installed it myself because the savings allowed me to by a B21 TLB. Two toys for the price of one! The unit has been great. Have small outages each year, 15 min to 2 hours but then get "the big ones" in terms of wind damage or ice storm. I was in Florida once when an ice storm took out everything around here for 3 days. The value of calling home and having it all just work ("Hi Honey, it's 75 degrees and sunny here, how's the weather up there") was priceless.
As for sizing, best way is to get an amp meter and measure what your worst case load is for the house. Get a generator that's a bit bigger. At the 1st house, I took the resistive electric back-up for the air heat pump from one HVAC unit (a 10 KW strip) and moved it to breaker box I put in before the transfer switch. That let me "get by" with a 45 KW generator. It was an all electric house and it was cheaper to buy more generator than to start changing out appliances. If your house is predominately gas appliances, the generator gets much smaller (7KW for basics, 15-20 KW if you want air conditioning).
New house has geothermal heat, I only kept one 10KW strip on the generator for the master bedroom area. I can fire up the oven if I have an HVAC failure for the main part of the house, and my work area has a small oven I put in in case that system goes. The key focus here is look at your total installed cost. It may turn out that more generator is cheaper than lots of panel box re-wiring or new apliances. And consider installing a new panel box before the transfer switch to balance the generator size. This also lets you add stuff later (like welder circuits) without messing things up because your generator is undersized. Be sure to put the block heater for the generator on that circuit.
As crazy as it sounds, sometimes the cheapest part of putting in a generator system is the generator. All the work to get a pad put in, conduit run, transfer switch install, etc. may be the dominant cost. So just look at the total picture.
If you're not doing 100% automatic whole house backup (like George2615) you can pick and chose via breakers in your breaker box. Square-D makes a mechanical interlock system that makes the back feeding of the box safe. Don't count on being smart enough to throw the right breakers no matter how they are labeled. When it all goes dark, you're cranked and make mistakes. These will at a minimum pop your generator and at a maximum kill someone. The sizing process is the same- use a meter to measure the current of the stuff you want to power and then you're not guessing. Rule of thumb: Double the current draw of any motor (pump or compressor) and remember it. Add the single largest draw to the constant draw amount. That way, when the motor kicks in you're OK. This is where you also have to look a the Generac ratings carefully. The "Peak Power" vs. "average power" works for you in those cases. Note also that there are manual 200 amp transfer switches in the sub $500 range that work here to. Kick off the breakers for circuits you can't power, then turn on your generator. If you are not electrically inclined, work with an electrician.
Seems I can never make a short post to TBN...
 
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/ Whole house backup gen set? #11  
Bruce I'd go with the 17 kw Generac with the aluminun case.. #5424.. It has a 65 amp. breaker and comes with a transfer switch panel..
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #12  
realize that the transfer switch only provides 16 breakers.. now go add up what you need to power and see if you dont run out quickly/.

I did the 17 kw generac. but used a double disconnect from main incoming power disconnect switch ( before electrical panels) so i shut off incoming power/ turn on generator throw my double disconnects and walla i have power running to every breaker in my two electrical panels.. will it power my whole house. yes but i a careful what is used in emergency sitiuation.

but i pick and choose what to run and not use.... makes a huge difference when you have a well septic. a/c refers freezers outlets lights etc
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #13  
Thanks for the advice. Looking at our electric bills our usage varies from an average of 3000 watts in the Winter to 5000 watts in the summer.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #14  
Wow Bruce,, That's low.. I guess you didn't realy need that 400a service..???
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #15  
Bruce I'd go with the 17 kw Generac with the aluminun case.. #5424.. It has a 65 amp. breaker and comes with a transfer switch panel..

Hello,

I have the same generator for a little over 2 years now and have had no problems with it. Runs on LP. I have had it serviced once (initial oil change and leaking hose) since i have had it. comes on when it is supposed to and runs a self test every monday at 1pm. I would buy another one if i needed too.

James
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #16  
Do you really need such a big capacity in times of emergency? I realize that it's a lot more convenient to have a whole house, auto changeover, auto-test generator ready to go. But do you really need it?
How often to you have power outages and how long do they average? Do you really need constant power to the guest bedroom and the garage? And are you willing to pay a lot more for auto switch?
The whole house system will cost a lot more, but more seriously, will require more fuel. Are you willing to store 100/200 gallons of gas for a week long ice storm type outage. And how are you fixed for driving out of your storm-hit area to buy extra fuel?
In my case I calculated how much capacity that I needed for essentials and a minimum of convenience - refrigerator, water pump, sewage, furnace, half the kitchen, one bedroom, entertainment area and computer area. I got a 6.2KW unit that drinks 7 gallons every 17.5 hours. And I store 19 gallons of gas. That should hold me for 48 hours before things get desperate.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #17  
I use a 10kw Briggs and Stratton portable gen with a plug in with a transfer switch. It is cheaper than buying a whole house unit and you can use it other places if you need it.

I only paid 900 for mine new with electric start and wheel kit. It works great. Easy to take with you if you move to.
:)
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #18  
Thanks for the advice. Looking at our electric bills our usage varies from an average of 3000 watts in the Winter to 5000 watts in the summer.

Does this mean: 3000 watts average point-in-time usage, or 3000 kilowatt hours per month?

Dave.
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #19  
You need a power study done by a non interested party IE: not the company trying to sell you a generator. You have two loads to deal with. your average KW/HR load, which is what your power bill will give you, and your peak load. If your power bill says you only average 3KW/HR over the entire month, that is fine, but you could have an intermittent 10, 20 or 30KW load that only comes on once a day briefly... Anything with large motors or electric heaters will have large peak loads.

Having a genset to handle that 3KW average load is easy. Having one to handle that 20KW load is considerably more costly for the machine, and for the ammount of fuel it will cost to keep it running feeding that little 3KW load most of the time while it waits for that 20 or 30KW load to come it's way.

If this is for emergency backup power, a power study can help you decide which loads draw what, and perhaps make a decision to suffer thru without some of them during a power failure. If you have an older style power meter at your panel with the spinning disk, you can easilly do the study yourself. Ideally, you want a generator sized to run most of it's time at 70% load. Generators run at low loads, are less efficient, and can suffer from other issues.

I work on a grosely oversized 100KW generac that only has a peak load of 21KW. It never ran at proper operating temperature for the first 200 hours of it's life, and has oil consumption issues from improperly broken in rings. Somebody thought bigger was better, and that is definitely not the case where generators are concerned. We blocked off 4/5 of it's massive radiator to match it to the size of it's load, and at least it now gets up to it's rated 195F op temp. It still consumes quite a bit of oil though, and that is it's limiting factor for unattend operation time. It will run out of oil long before it will run out of fuel...

Good Luck
 
/ Whole house backup gen set? #20  
Ron is absolutely correct regarding the need to understand your loads. Then one can decide what they want to run off of the generator and size/install it accordingly. There are many options as to how one installs the transfer switch/panels enabling you to choose various sizes of generators to protect different sizes of load without overloading them. I can not stress enough the peace of mind a properly installed whole house generator brings but it does cost money.

Generacs are the most popular because they are typically the cheapest and are carried every where, not because they are the best.

As far as storing 200 - 300 gallons of gas, 99.99% of automatic standby generators are either diesel, natural gas, or propane, with the choice depending upon what is available and what you use. On my own generator, i use a 1000 gallon propane tank. For my loads, i can run my heat and generator for about 2 weeks if the tank was half full.

Ken
 
 
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