Bad Oil New Tractor

[MessickFarmEqu]

As far as using MFG'S oil and filters that's BULL if it meets the spec's on oil use it

Any chance the green stuff was alge?

Just a quick note on this. If you read the pails of oil you'll find that many oils meet Kubota UDT spec, but I don't know of any generics that meet Super UDT. Most of the newer tractors are requiring SUDT. The added cost is offset by the fact that your only changing the fluid half as often... check your owners manuals.

Every dealer can point to several customers who have been burned by using non-OEM filters, oils, etc. A few weeks ago we had a New Holland TN that had a wix filter on it. The filter material came loose and was sucked into the engine and wrecked the whole thing. I can understand if you saved substantal sums by using non-OEM stuff, but the difference is all to offten not more than a few bucks. Its cheap insurance.

 

[kenstrac]

Any chance the green stuff was alge?

Just a quick note on this. If you read the pails of oil you'll find that many oils meet Kubota UDT spec, but I don't know of any generics that meet Super UDT. Most of the newer tractors are requiring SUDT. The added cost is offset by the fact that your only changing the fluid half as often... check your owners manuals.

Every dealer can point to several customers who have been burned by using non-OEM filters, oils, etc. A few weeks ago we had a New Holland TN that had a wix filter on it. The filter material came loose and was sucked into the engine and wrecked the whole thing. I can understand if you saved substantal sums by using non-OEM stuff, but the difference is all to offten not more than a few bucks. Its cheap insurance.

If you look at op you will see that it was serviced by a Kubota dealer would you not replace oil when all the work was done on the brakes .
as far as the oil filter goes DID you call WIX and tell them you had a problem they may want to know did you send them the old filter who replaced the filter the customer, did they get all the cellophane off the filter before they installed it?
AS far as the same old BS about buying oem oil filters how do you explain a customer of mine brought over a NH LB 620 with NH filter in it the paint was coming off the filter so I got the rest of the paint off and it was a WIX filter!

 

[Gizmo2]

If you look at op you will see that it was serviced by a Kubota dealer would you not replace oil when all the work was done on the brakes .
as far as the oil filter goes DID you call WIX and tell them you had a problem they may want to know did you send them the old filter who replaced the filter the customer, did they get all the cellophane off the filter before they installed it?
AS far as the same old BS about buying oem oil filters how do you explain a customer of mine brought over a NH LB 620 with NH filter in it the paint was coming off the filter so I got the rest of the paint off and it was a WIX filter!

Yep, I remember when I worked in a hardware department in a large department store. Brand named paint would come in by the case and I was told by the management to remove the paint can labels and replace them with the department store labels, and we sold both kinds, the brand name and the store brand. Go figure! This was many moons ago.

 

[Diamondpilot]

"Does anybody use Motorcraft oil in their Ford truck or car, or Delco in their GM? I don't and never will. I'm sure SOMEBODY does because they still sell it. I run RPM DELO 400 in my Ford power stroke. Ford "recommends" Motorcraft, WHY?? BECAUSE THEY SELL IT, that's all."

I am like most and use aftermarket filters and oil. One thing interesting is I have found that Fords oil is better priced than any aftermarket oil out there other than WalMart Brand oil.

Either way I fell sorry for the guy. I really feel that the only one he is going to have a chance in **** of going after is the oils manufacture. Kuboat and the parts dealer are going to wash their hands of it.

Chris

 

[Hematite]

kentrac:

Even if you could prove that NH doesn't spec the filter differently when they order 10,000 of them from Wix (which you can't), the BIG difference is that when the engine sucks in a filter, if its a NH filter guess who buys a new engine: NH. If it's a WIX filter guess who buys a new engine: WIX or YOU! I'd love to see how much trouble you would have to go to to get WIX to buy a new engine!

By the way the NH filter from WIX fits hundreds of engines. Do you REALLY believe that the operating conditions are close enough on all for that filter to work equally well? If you were a manufacturer and wanted to insure your reputation, wouldn't you make spec changes when you order 10K filters for the parts dept? And I'll bet WIX would make those changes, too.

Part Applications

 

[SPYDERLK]

I think there's a difference between what you know and what you can prove. The other question is it worth it in time and money?

[[[I run SUDT because I haven't been able to fing anything aftermarket that says it meets SUDT specs. Plenty of stuff meets UDT but I haven't seen anything that meets SUDT.]]] I have no problem running a high dollar synthetic if it meets or exceeds manufacturer specs. If you were running Kubota fluid and had these issues it would be a much easier fight.

Do you have SUDT specs? I ask because I am interested in looking. My Dealer does nothave enuf SUDT for an oilchange. They say everybody just uses UDT. For ordering purposes they would "have to order a pallet and couldnt sell it in a reasonable time".
larry

 

[kenstrac]

kentrac:

Even if you could prove that NH doesn't spec the filter differently when they order 10,000 of them from Wix (which you can't), the BIG difference is that when the engine sucks in a filter, if its a NH filter guess who buys a new engine: NH. If it's a WIX filter guess who buys a new engine: WIX or YOU! I'd love to see how much trouble you would have to go to to get WIX to buy a new engine!

By the way the NH filter from WIX fits hundreds of engines. Do you REALLY believe that the operating conditions are close enough on all for that filter to work equally well? If you were a manufacturer and wanted to insure your reputation, wouldn't you make spec changes when you order 10K filters for the parts dept? And I'll bet WIX would make those changes, too.

Part Applications

So what you are telling me is the wix # that was on the NH filter is not the same as the WIX filter I replaced it with which was the same # . SO wix is using the same # for different specs I DON'T think SO.
BTW what do you think would happen if you bought a Kuboto filter and put it in yourself and the engine sucked the filter in, they would say you improperly installed the filter and you would pay !

 

[Coyote machine]

What Messicks said about a spec on the type of oil makes sense. What is less viable is the oil filter argument about whatever brand vs. OEM. Often OEM is what a tractor, car, truck, lawnmower manufacturer has a major filter company make and put the Ford, Kubota, Kioti, John Deere, etc. name and color on and package for the Dealer network to sell at a higher retail cost than one can buy the exact same filter under another name at K-Mart, Walmart, Costco, Allied Auto, Napa, etc.
Does what filter one uses really make a difference? Yes and no. Depends on if a Wix filter or a Bosch or Mopar or whatever brand fails like Messick's exemplified. Regardless of who's name is on the filter the company that manufactured the filter ought to be the one to take responsibility for the defect/failure IF it can be shown that they are the responsible party in our litigious society.

 

[ghitch75]

i don't understand why anyone is gettin' sued......when the pail was opened and it was green it should have never went it to the tractor.....person that put green oil in should be sued.....should have been returned and what oil got in there drained and the right oil from Kuboat put in it......50 hours is still brand new should have stuck with was what Kuboat sells for warnttey....then when it's out put in what ever....

 

[CurlyDave]

Regardless of who's name is on the filter the company that manufactured the filter ought to be the one to take responsibility for the defect/failure IF it can be shown that they are the responsible party in our litigious society.

I agree in principle, but if I take my John Deer tractor into the John Deere dealer and they have their name on the defective filter, I don't have to sort out who really made it, and force them to pay up. The dealer is on the hook to fix the problem caused by "his" filter.

Now I know they will turn around and get Wix or whoever really made it to reimburse them for the costs, but there is no lawsuit necessary. When you buy filters 100,000 or so at a time, the manufacturer of filters is going to make good on his mistakes.

When I buy 2 or 3 filters a year, I am going to need lawyers and lawsuits to get those same results.

Dave's law of customer service goes like this: "The service you get from anyone depends solely on the amount of money he thinks you will pay him in the future. Money paid in the past does not count."

There are exceptions of course, and reputable contractors will stand behind their work, but even there the rule works. Think about this situation: Your two year old roof has started to leak. You call the contractor and he says he will come out & repair it, but he has to work it into his schedule. Now suppose you are a builder and have a few houses going up that will need roofs. I bet that contractor will be out to fix yours the very next day.

 

[dodge man]

I can remember when Consumer's Reports did a test on automobile oil filters several years ago. They tired out just about every brand at the time, but this has been maybe as much as 20 years ago. There was a difference between them. I remember at that time Fram was on average one of the best, but depending on the application, others were often better.

My point is that there is a difference in them, but you really have no way of knowing if what you are using is the best. With my limited knowledge of manufactoring, I am just about sure that for most applications, the tractor makers are using an "off the shelf" oil filter. This means it is already being made by someone. Why would they want to design a new oil filter for every engine they make?

From what I have read, Kubota SUDT may be a unique product. My understanding is that it gives much better cold weather performance.

I can remember a friend of a friend who had a Champion spark plug fail and damaged his engine. He was not able to get any money from Champion.

 

[two_bit_score]

Part II of my reply...

I realize the apparent problem is the product purchased was improperly labeled and in fact not Smitty's Super Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid.

I went to the Smitty's website for additional information and KUBOTA IS NOT MENTIONED as one of the recommended applications for this product...

Here is what it says:

"Super Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid is a universal lubricant for farm and industrial tractors and construction equipment. Super Trac is a blend of highly refined base stocks selected for their inherent thermal stability. It has a premium EP, anti-wear additive package and highly active rust, corrosion and oxidation inhibitor, all in a balanced performance package to insure proper lubrication, wear protection, oxidation stability, water tolerance, low brake chatter, compatibility with seals, o-rings, and packing materials. Super Trac is a true multiple service oil recommended for the majority of hydraulic, wet brake, and transmission requirements of most equipment manufacturers, including Allis Chalmer, J. I. Case, John Deere, Ford, International Harvester, Massey-Ferguson, Allison and White."

Reference Link: Super S Oils

Probably why he felt the need to call and ask if Smitty's was OK to use in his tractor.

How many months has it been since the original fluid change and still the offending fluid has not been analyized?

 

[neucam]

Bad story, your first gut feeling was right, something was wrong with the oil in the can. I would love to know what the green stuff really was. I would not have excepted the parts person's explanation. I would have had them prove to you it was the same oil as recommended by Kubota or open another oil can. But people make costly mistakes. Our local wine grower had one of his helpers spray the grape vines for fungus. They had two barrels, one fungus spray, one Round Up weed killer, which one did he use, weed killer, a few acre patch of vines 3 years later is just starting to come back. Very costly, could you sue the worker, not really.

 

[Soundguy]

the green oil wouldn't have scared me... any color dye can be added to oil.

when the oils viscosity was different. that would have alarmed me and made me do an immediate flush.. I'm betting hte first 'thick' green oil was a hypoid gear oil...

as for the hyd remotes installed wrong / incorrect.. that's a boneheaded move by a dealer that should have known better.... depending on the issue.. i bet a hyd pump was running against relief and that's aprt of the squeal.. add thick gear oil in there and the relief may not have been able to keep up with the flow.. add a hyd clutch pack / independent pto, and i can see why the pto squealed... kick wet brakes inthere and gear oil not made for them.. and well..... sounds expensive..

soundguy

Good Evenin Broker than broke,
I feel for you, thats a terrible story ! I think the only way your going to get anything out of the parts store, is through an attorney, and thats obviously going to be costly ! Good luck with it if thats what you decide !

Im thinking you just taught many people a very valuable lesson on buying fluids for their tractor ! Dont skimp bottom line, on a valuable piece of equipment !

You may be able to get some restitution from the parts store but I dont see a new tractor in your future unless you can get Johnny Cochrane to represent you !

Pay the dealer to get it back to where it was before the fatal mistake and use the proper fluids in the future !

BTW welcome to TBN !

 

[swines]

While the lubricants found from equipment manufacturers may be packaged under contract by an outside refinery, the formulations may not be just repackaged oils from the oil company.

In many cases, the lubricant formulations contain additives specified, and in some cases, provided by the equipment manufacturer. John Deere has a number of proprietary additives that they provide to be added to their fluids by the company making and packaging the fluid. In fact on some products, you will see that the label of ingredients will include the statement "trade secret additives."

I don't believe that in the large picture, selling oil, grease, hydraulic fluids, etc. is a huge profit center for the equipment manufacturer, but a way for them to help ensure that the equipment (that costs many, many times the amount you will ever use in fluids expenditures) works as long as possible at the performance levels to which it has been engineered.

You're certainly free to use whatever YOU think is equal to the OEM lubricants, but, while the substitute may be listed to have the same performance level - in all probability it will not have the same additives as the OEM product.

I don't think you're going to get very far with a lawsuit unless you can prove exactly what was in the green fluid bucket with traceability to the manufacturer. They cannot have incorrectly labeled a single pail - that is nearly statistically impossible in the manufacturing and shipping process.

The dealer doesn't order a single pail, but numbers of the same product usually delivered on a pallet. That means the dealer has an entire pallet of the same product that has been mislabeled. Unless the manufacturer has issued a recall to the dealer for mislabeled products that includes the batch number you've purchased - you're not going to get anywhere.

And BTW - it's NOT Kubota's fault that YOU chose to use an other than OEM product - and YOU put it into the tractor. You will find the phrase "caveat emptor" used in law - "let the buyer beware." That means YOU'RE responsible for what you buy. The OEM products would have been warranted by the equipment manufacturer to be the correct product for the equipment regardless of whether there was a mislabeling issue or not.

You chose to buy an other than OEM product - now I guess you get to see whether "Smittys" has the same warranty on their product or not...

 

[nunyabinis]

Now this is what I call a Nightmare Scenario. YIKES!!!


He should have listened to that little voice telling him something was wrong. Unfortunately, every time I ignore my own little voice it usually ends up costing money too. Hopefully not THIS expensive though.



Of course there was the time with the 1992 Chevy with the seized spark plug...... that little voice was SCREAMING........ then $3,500 later........



ALWAYS listen to that little voice.




.

 

[kenstrac]

the green oil wouldn't have scared me... any color dye can be added to oil.

when the oils viscosity was different. that would have alarmed me and made me do an immediate flush.. I'm betting hte first 'thick' green oil was a hypoid gear oil...

as for the hyd remotes installed wrong / incorrect.. that's a boneheaded move by a dealer that should have known better.... depending on the issue.. i bet a hyd pump was running against relief and that's aprt of the squeal.. add thick gear oil in there and the relief may not have been able to keep up with the flow.. add a hyd clutch pack / independent pto, and i can see why the pto squealed... kick wet brakes inthere and gear oil not made for them.. and well..... sounds expensive..

soundguy

You might be on to something here soundguy Smittys does not sell antifreeze in 5 gal pails only gals and 55 gal drums according to Smitty's web site they have 9 filling lines and I cant see them packaging antifreeze on an oil filling line much less changing 5 gal to 1 gal on a line or or the other way around.
It probably was rear end oil

 

[broker than broke]

Well, I think some of you folks are misreading what I wrote. I had a gut feeling, big deal. A gut feeling is not science. If you have a gut feeling about getting on an airplane and you go ahead and get on it and it crashes, the the airline is not liable?? That's crazy.

I had a gut feeling there was something wrong so I carried the residue in the container to the AUTHORIZED AGENT and he ASSURED me it was fine. I reminded him it was a new tractor, and it was the very first service, but then he REASSURED me it was fine. I said OK.

You folks would flunk a business law class.

The guy that sold the oil is liable as is the manufacturer. The only way I would have any liability is if I SAW some gravel or something BLATANT like that in the oil. Then the burden of proof would be on the AUTHORIZED AGENT TO PROVE THAT I SAW IT.

The container the oil came in CLEARLY STATES the oil meets Kubota Specs. I have about a dozen containers around here because I have been using it for years, and they ALL say that. I have already met with the attorney and I have some knowledge of consumer law although I AM NOT an attorney.

I have really received some interesting comments though. I think some of you thought I wanted Kubota to replace the tractor, I DO NOT. I want the AUTHORIZED AGENT WHO SOLD THE OIL AND HELD HIMSELF OUT AS KNOWING HIS PRODUCT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND REQUIRED BY LAW.

If they are deliberately saying the oil meets Kubota specs when they KNOW they are not then that is FRAUD. I don't believe that at all. I think their oil is fine, I have been buying and using it for years and everybody I know that has equipment uses it. I just happen to buy a jug of pills that some guy put the wrong pills in. I have NEVER had that happen before, and most likely will never again. But I will concede this, if it DOES happen again, I will make the guy reassure my in writing or buy the oil right back at that point. I am NOT required to be an oil expert, I do not make or sell the stuff.

To see so many people think that a gut feeling rises to the level of a fact or science is kind of amusing and then troubling.

Like I say, if I have a gut feeling that an airplane flight is doomed, and then get on it and it crashes do my family not have a claim?? That is utterly absurd.

If I go back to the pharmacy and say "Mr. Druggist these pills are the wrong color and he reassures me they are correct, and I take them is it my fault"? The answer is NO. In fact, the druggists responsibility INCREASES because he had a SECOND chance to correct the problem and he didn't take it.

That's the way it works. Interesting comments though. Thanks.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Well, I think some of you folks are misreading what I wrote. I had a gut feeling, big deal. A gut feeling is not science. If you have a gut feeling about getting on an airplane and you go ahead and get on it and it crashes, the the airline is not liable?? That's crazy.

I had a gut feeling there was something wrong so I carried the residue in the container to the AUTHORIZED AGENT and he ASSURED me it was fine. I reminded him it was a new tractor, and it was the very first service, but then he REASSURED me it was fine. I said OK.

You folks would flunk a business law class.

The guy that sold the oil is liable as is the manufacturer. The only way I would have any liability is if I SAW some gravel or something BLATANT like that in the oil. Then the burden of proof would be on the AUTHORIZED AGENT TO PROVE THAT I SAW IT.

The container the oil came in CLEARLY STATES the oil meets Kubota Specs. I have about a dozen containers around here because I have been using it for years, and they ALL say that. I have already met with the attorney and I have some knowledge of consumer law although I AM NOT an attorney.

I have really received some interesting comments though. I think some of you thought I wanted Kubota to replace the tractor, I DO NOT. I want the AUTHORIZED AGENT WHO SOLD THE OIL AND HELS HIMSELF OUT AS KNOWING HIS PRODUCT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND REQUIRED BY LAW.

If they are deliberately saying the oil meets Kubota specs when they KNOW they are not then that is FRAUD. I don't believe that at all. I think their oil is fine, I have been buying and using it for years and everybody I know that has equipment uses it. I just happen to buy a jug of pills that some guy put the wrong pills in. I have NEVER had that happen before, and most likely will never again. But I will concede this, if it DOES happen again, I will make the guy reassure my in writing or buy the oil right back at that point. I am NOT required to be an oil expert, I do not make or sell the stuff.

To see so many people think that a gut feeling rises to the level of a fact or science is kind of amusing and then troubling.

Like I say, if I have a gut feeling that an airplane flight is doomed, and then get on it and it crashes do my family not have a claim?? That is utterly absurd.

If I go back to the pharmacy and say "Mr. Druggist these pills are the wrong color and he reassures me they are correct, and I take them is it my fault"? The answer is NO. In fact, the druggists responsibility INCREASES because he had a SECOND chance to correct the problem and he didn't take it.

That's the way it works. Interesting comments though. Thanks.

I don't know what type of parts store you have there but the guys who work at them here generally don't even know how to change their own oil.

What I and I feel a lot of others feel is that as soon as you noticed the two pails of oil looked different and the viscosity was different then you should have bit the bullet and trusted that gut feeling regardless to what the clerk at the parts store said. the store gave you more oil to flush your system so they did what they could to help you out but ultimately it looks like this is a fight you should take up with the oil manufacturer.

The guy selling you oil isn't a pharmacist, heck, I doubt he even knows how to do an oil analisis. The pharmacist is on the hook for his mistakes because he went to school for that job and people have to rely on him. The guy selling parts didn't go to school for selling parts and oil. Trying to compare this whole situation to a pharmacy is way off base and only hurts your argument. He is just a low level employee with no required education or experience for that job. Just punch some buttons and find the correct parts.

 

[ultrarunner]

So... have you had the contents analyzed?

Very good think you kept the pail since the company's website does not list Kubota for the product you bought...

I'm not a lawyer... only play arbitrator from time to time.

My belief is your case hinges on the residual green fluid in the pail that is listed as meeting Kubota Spec for your equipment.