Bad Oil New Tractor

[wstr75]

Am going to take a different approach. He says the tractor operates (he has put about 75 hours on it since the green oil was flushed out), but that everything squeals when turning (PTO, clutch, etc.). He has not mentioned having any hydraulic leaks.

Here is my take:
1. A lawsuit is expensive and a major diversion that possibly could take years off one's life through the overall frustration of a long-running process.
2. The dealer is not going to do anything more for this gentleman.
3. The choice I would make is to run the tractor until something breaks. To forestall breaking something and to quiet the squealing, I'd put the best possible hydraulic fluid into the tractor and run it, run it, run it for hundreds of hours. My thinking is the squealing will eventually go away as whatever the greenstuff put on the rotating surfaces slowly gets stripped away through hours of usage.

Kubota tractors are built tougher than their specifications and my guess is your tractor will eventually straighten-up and fly right with another hundred hours on the clock.

I do not own a Kubota and have a question for the group:
Does the PTO have some sort of clutch pack? Does it work in any semblance to the clutches in an anti-slip differential? Anti-slip differentials have special oil to help the clutches "bite". Is the squealing possibly being caused by oil that is precluding the clutches from "biting together"? If so, then it would surely seem the Kubota original specification lubricant would have the necessary additive.

At any rate, if it were me, I would not screw around with lawyers, the store or the dealership because IMHO it is a waste of time and a source of extreme frustration. I'd run the tractor until something broke (but keeping good, fresh oils in it).

Bill in NC

 

[wstr75]

Here is something found via Google search. It is from a lubricant manufacturer:
"Prolongs Power Take-Off Life

Power Take Offs (PTO's) very often fail to have their clutch plates lock up quick enough to prevent a great deal of slippage. Slippage causes clutch plates to burn up and results in loss of power transmission. There is a performance lock up test called the Stall Test that allows up to 3 seconds before lock up. Texas Refinery Corp.'s UNIVERSAL TORQUE FLUID passes this test with a lock up time of less than 1 second. This fast lock up time reduces clutch wear and prolongs PTO life. Texas Refinery Corp. uses a great deal more of the superior additives to protect PTO's than is necessary to pass equipment manufacturers test."

http://www.texasrefinery.com/lb-universaltorque.htm

Bill in NC
(not affiliated with anybody in the lubricant or tractor business!)

 

[greenmule]

Yeah but he put bright green oil in his tractor[had to say that one more time]

If I bought a bottle of asprins and got them home,opened them up,poured me out some and they was green,wouldn't take any,would probably go back to place I bought them and say heh,looka here,these asprins I bought off you are green,person would say well I be $#%^&^,your right! Let me give your money back and I will contact our supplyer.[or other such story]

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Once again it is ILLEGAL for a manufacturer of ANYTHING to DEMAND you only use their brand. Even the government recognizes the issue. If you can come up with the same SPECIFICATIONS with another maker of the product they CANNOT demand you use ONLY their oil. It is a violation of Fair Trade Laws and is a form or "price fixing". A dealer will tell you that. Ask one. The courts settled that one YEARS AGO.

I am not disputing wether it is legal or not. However, Kubota is not reponsible for your problems because you used an aftermarket oil that was the wrong oil. So because it was packaged wrong it is your problem, not Kubotas. Now if you bought the Kubota oil and it was packaged wrong I bet they would take care of this for you but since you didn't you really have no justification trying to get them or the dealer to fix your tractor for free. Your only recourse is to go after the oil supplier but once again your own mistake played a large role in this. You knew immediately that these two jugs of oil were different and from that moment you should have drained any oil and cleaned the system before ever starting the tractor.

If I recall the parts store gave you 25 gallons to flush your system. It seems to me they did what they could to help you out. Reading your story it sounds like you really don't have too many options. Contact the oil manufacturer and see if they can help you out any but trying to sue everyone would be wrong as Kubota, your dealer and the parts store appear to have done nothing wrong.

 

[thavil]

broker than broke - I just read this entire thread in one sitting, so I may have missed what I have been wondering since your first post. Have you contacted the manufacturer of the oil to ask if they make different color fluids? Just curious as to what they say. They may have a known issue with a certain batch and you can work your issue from there.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

*Yep takes the worry out of wondering.

Exactly, even if there is a problem with the oil you have a better claim as it is the OEM oil so they are more willing to take care of the problem. And OEM oils like Motorcraft and New Holland isn't that much more then generics of equal specs.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

The guy that sells the stuff is in the same position as a pharmacist that puts the WRONG medicaine in a pill bottle, it is EXACTLY the same thing.

It is not the same thing and not even close. A pharmacist takes pills from a large bottle and puts them in a smaller bottle and gives them to you. he has to label the bottle himself also. The guy selling the oil gets the jugs from the distributer and doesn't do anything to it before selling it to you more or less untouched. The only similarity is you have to pay for both items

Once again, you can buy the dealer brand if you want to and pay double if you want to, but ask yourself this, if you bought the DEALER brand and IT WAS MISPACKAGED AND RUINED YOUR MACHINE, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL???

If that happened the dealer would warranty it because it was the OEM oil that was defective. Not an aftermarket oil the "OEM" has no control over.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I really think that some are pointing the finger at not using the factory brand, and it may very well be made by the same manufacturer as what you used. In fact, you could have bought from the dealer, and it could have been mislabled just as easily. I think your problem in either case is the tracability. Since you do not have the mislabled stuff with the container, you are at a huge disadvantage. Even if you did, it would be difficult to prove for sure that it was the manufacturer's doing. If you had done this all with the dealer's oil, you may very well be in the same pickle. Hindsight is 20/20, but it is easy to look backwards and wish you had done a few things differently. Maybe you would have a stonger case. Maybe you will be successful with the case as it is.
Some people look at the dealer fluids as the holy grail. Gimme a break! Then we start throwing out comparisons to the original purchase price. If you save $50 on a fluid change for the same spec fluid, isn't that still saving $50? Regardless of the original price of the tractor? Keeping careful records and samples (how many of us really do that) could have helped here. Now, if the dealer did it all, then I guess you could wash your hands of it. You put up with a hosing every time you get fluid changed on the rare, outside chance that something like this happens? That's not my style. I just can't believe that folks take this opportunity to rub someones nose in it because he did it himself. If this makes the "dealer service only" crowd sleep better at night, then goodie for them.

If there is a problem with the OEM oil the OEM is responsible for any damages. The OEM has no control over aftermarket oils so if you get a mislabeled oil and put it in your tractor it is no different to the OEM then if you put the wrong oil in knowingly. Kubota can't be responsible for these damages because some other company screwed up.

 

[kenstrac]

Am going to take a different approach. He says the tractor operates (he has put about 75 hours on it since the green oil was flushed out), but that everything squeals when turning (PTO, clutch, etc.). He has not mentioned having any hydraulic leaks.

Here is my take:
1. A lawsuit is expensive and a major diversion that possibly could take years off one's life through the overall frustration of a long-running process.
2. The dealer is not going to do anything more for this gentleman.
3. The choice I would make is to run the tractor until something breaks. To forestall breaking something and to quiet the squealing, I'd put the best possible hydraulic fluid into the tractor and run it, run it, run it for hundreds of hours. My thinking is the squealing will eventually go away as whatever the greenstuff put on the rotating surfaces slowly gets stripped away through hours of usage.

Kubota tractors are built tougher than their specifications and my guess is your tractor will eventually straighten-up and fly right with another hundred hours on the clock.

I do not own a Kubota and have a question for the group:
Does the PTO have some sort of clutch pack? Does it work in any semblance to the clutches in an anti-slip differential? Anti-slip differentials have special oil to help the clutches "bite". Is the squealing possibly being caused by oil that is precluding the clutches from "biting together"? If so, then it would surely seem the Kubota original specification lubricant would have the necessary additive.

At any rate, if it were me, I would not screw around with lawyers, the store or the dealership because IMHO it is a waste of time and a source of extreme frustration. I'd run the tractor until something broke (but keeping good, fresh oils in it).

Bill in NC

I think running it is a foolish thing to do if bearings seize up you could do a lot more damage burnt up shafts,wallowed out main castings,you could end up buying the whole belly of the tractor.
As for the substance you poured in the tractor was the seal on the spout or was it tampered with, could have been a return from another customer.

 

[wstr75]

Ken, I see your point. But poor ole broker than broke is going to go crazy trying to get these other parties to help him out. They ain't going to do much more than they already have done.

The cheapest attorneys we work with are $200/hour and the better ones are $350/hour. Let's say this situation rambled over three years and ended up being 200 hours at $200/hour of legal time. According to my Elm City, NC High School mathematics training, that would be $40,000. It would also be a whole lot of sleepless nights, internal anger, frustration and probably some serious health consequences along the way, too.

He put green stuff in the tractor. He subsequently replaced the oils. He had the tractor torn apart. It squeals when running the PTO. It probably needs some kind of oil additive to make the PTO clutches lock-up correctly again as they have been likely slicked-up. It is a awful situation to be in but trying to go the legal route is an even worse situation in my humble opinion.

I would call the folks at Texas Refinery (the link above) and ask them what they have seen regarding situations like this where the PTO and other systems squeal. It is quite possible they have seen something like this before and have some suggestions or can direct you to another company that has a solution.

Bill in NC

 

[two_bit_score]

Sorry but why or how can someone justify buying a piece of equipment for say $20,000, in the case of my last tractor and then try and save $10.00 on a $100.00 maintenance costs? People do it all the time and I simply cannot figure it out.

Or just being so adamant that you will NOT use the manuf. branded fluid just because they can't MAKE you do it so you run the risk of things turning out like this.


I just don't get it.

 

[two_bit_score]

broker than broke - I just read this entire thread in one sitting, so I may have missed what I have been wondering since your first post. Have you contacted the manufacturer of the oil to ask if they make different color fluids? Just curious as to what they say. They may have a known issue with a certain batch and you can work your issue from there.

Or having the original green/brown fluids tested?

 

[CurlyDave]

I think if the OP would quit pouring that Smitty's stuff, which is clearly of unknown parentage, and would flush the hydraulic system with known, high quality oil, the problems might start to go away.

Even the Super-Tech oil from Wally World, I have some confidence in. If it doesn't meet spec, they have deep pockets and lots of lawyers would happy to take them on. Smitty, on the other hand, has to be found before he can be sued and then he has to have two nickels to rub together, which I very much doubt.

One thing that would help a lot is what does the oil look like that comes out of the machine? If it is cloudy, you probably poured anti-freeze in there. If it has been clear every time, then whatever you put in mixes with oil and it is just a matter of enough flushing. If it was cloudy the first few times, and is starting to become clear, you are on the right path, just need some more flushes.

My own opinion is that 25 gallons is not enough to flush a system that holds 10 gallons, really only two flushes. OTOH, 25 gallons of Smitty's has no legitimate use other than going directly to the oil recycling sump.

 

[Arkhermit]

well. what a bad deal. After reading all this I don't see a bit of proof of anything. What is the green stuff ? Where is the "expert" that will say this is what caused the problem. What about the remotes being the wrong ones, could this have in fact caused the problem ? The tractor was "stored" for a length of time twice. Was it prepared according to Mgr directions ? Looks like a lot of assumptions and no facts. I say a lawyer would have a field day with this. also the lawyer wanting paid by the hour doesn't have much incenative, he needs to be getting "paid if I get Paid"

 

[Coyote machine]

'IF' the green stuff put in the tractor by the owner was antifreeze it might have had a thicker consistency than the usual hydraulic oil if it was made to be diluted like most antifreeze was until recently- and it seems that too has changed because people are in general too stupid to read directions carefully and often think the more antifreeze I put in the better and colder climate my car/truck will be able to run in. {So now antifreeze manufacturers are premixing it for all the morons who can't seem to do it themselves}. WRONG answer- too much antifreeze and not enough water is worse in some instances than not enough. It turns to sludge and gums things up- sort of what it sounds like is happening to the tractor that squeals like a stuck pig because it has NO LUBRICATION where it needs it- in the hydraulic system. Antifreeze acts as an etchant, NOT as a lubricant- squealing anyone?
I'm not saying it was or is antifreeze- just that antifreeze is a crappy lubricator and a poor substitute for the proper lubricity from a high quality, of whatever brand, hydraulic oil.

And please let's not compare what a pharmacist does to what a store clerk or warehouse shipping labeler does to 5 gallon pails of various fluids....its not even a close comparison.

I'm sorry you've lost more time and that your tractor and you have been 'sick'. I really believe you must forget this situation and take it as something that you should take responsibility for from the moment you concluded something is amiss. Otherwise you will likely make yourself more ill by trying to prove something you know in your heart is at least partly your own fault for not stopping at the moment you thought something with this picture is wrong. You could have prevented the current outcome, and that is what I would argue against you if I was defending whomever you decide to sue.

But then again, if I spill coffee in my lap and burn my ...s off then I can be awarded millions of $ for not having been warned properly that coffee in a Styrofoam cup might be HOT!!
Ah, our litigious society- when will it ever end?

I hope you decide to follow the advice of one who suggested you have the system flushed and the proper fluid installed.

 

[Skyco]

Ya know BtB keeps beating on Motorcraft oil and apparently how ignorant many of us are for even thinking of using it. Well it turns out Motorcraft oil is an excellent oil and costs NO MORE than other oils at Walmart. I have used it in my FORD and even use it in my HONDA. Get over it.

Another thing- it is not ILLEGAL for a manufacturer to require one to use THEIR oil. It is perfectly legal if the manufacturer supplies the oil they REQUIRE. So get over that one too, or get the story straight.

And BtB doesn't have time to READ all the replies but he does have time to keep reposting the same stuff detailed above. He hasn't answered any of the questions about does he still have the "bad" oil and has it been analyzed. He doesn't appear to have even contacted the manufacturer of the oil, heck for all we know they may admit responsibility right away and offer to take care of the problem. Jeeeez.



I own a Kubota and no I don't use their motor oil. But I do use their tractor fluid, SUDT, and will continue to do so. To me tractor fluids are a little more mysterious than motor oils as to their exact properties. In the big pic the cost is minor to be sure of what I get.


BTW my guess on the mystery GREEN fluid is 2 stroke oil- Smittys sells that too

 

[ultrarunner]

At one time I did a number of Automotive Lemon Law Arbitration Cases

The OP is exactly correct... in that the Manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim when it can be proven that a substitute product meets or exceeds the Manufacturer's Specification.

The problem is the Manufacturer only warrants the products it sells... so any claim that a third party product meets the Manufacturer's Spec rests solely with the Party making the claim and that is not Kubota.

Introducing a third party product only serves to make it easy to point fingers back and forth when a warranty problem comes into play.

In the real world... Major Manufacturer's Like Pennzoil, Quaker State, Shell, etc... will and do stand behind their product and have the documentation to prove their claims as well as legal departments.

Off-Brand products, often from one source one day and next week from another are much harder to hold accountable...

I'm hoping for the best for you... it's sounds like it will be difficult.

Have you looked into the financials of the product you purchased? What kind of numbers in dollars is their market share... have their been any similar suits previously?

I hope you still have the container with at least a little of the Green Fluid inside to have analyzed by a lab qualified to provide Expert Testimony in litigation...

 

[kenstrac]

Well I am still against running it if it was antifreeze that was poured in there no amount of flushing is going to reverse the damage that's already been done once antifreeze gets into bearings it's not a pretty sight.
If the lawyer is going to charge you $350 an hr why not take it to another dealer other than the one that messed up your valves and have him check it out dealer probably charges 70-80 per hr and you would have documentation on what is really going on .it just may be something that the dealer did.
Then with all of your ducks in a row you could pursue this in small claims court no lawyer involved

As far as using MFG'S oil and filters that's BULL if it meets the spec's on oil use it.I was buying oil in 55gal drums and used it in all brands of tractors and had no problem. In fact a dealer down the road was buying bulk oil he was using Shell Rotella 15-40 and Texaco UTF had 300 gal tanks.
Oil filters are another story after changing many filter for customers I only buy WIX,BALDWIN,FLEETGUARD filters.I have found that these filters are very high in quality and weigh more new than some of the off brand filters that I removed with the oil or diesel still in them.

 

[ultrarunner]

Part II of my reply...

I realize the apparent problem is the product purchased was improperly labeled and in fact not Smitty's Super Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid.

I went to the Smitty's website for additional information and KUBOTA IS NOT MENTIONED as one of the recommended applications for this product...

Here is what it says:

"Super Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid is a universal lubricant for farm and industrial tractors and construction equipment. Super Trac is a blend of highly refined base stocks selected for their inherent thermal stability. It has a premium EP, anti-wear additive package and highly active rust, corrosion and oxidation inhibitor, all in a balanced performance package to insure proper lubrication, wear protection, oxidation stability, water tolerance, low brake chatter, compatibility with seals, o-rings, and packing materials. Super Trac is a true multiple service oil recommended for the majority of hydraulic, wet brake, and transmission requirements of most equipment manufacturers, including Allis Chalmer, J. I. Case, John Deere, Ford, International Harvester, Massey-Ferguson, Allison and White."

Reference Link: Super S Oils

 

[ultrarunner]

Reply part III

I have not been able to pull up the MSDS sheet for Smitty's Super Trac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid

The closest link I could find is:

http://www.velvinoil.com/images/uploads/TO 4 Synthetic Trans Fluid 10wt, 30wt, 50wt.pdf

The correct Material Safety Data Sheet should be no more than a phone call and fax away...