Gear drive vs hydro

[ae_ted]

Ok I have read through all this and still dont see the main question I would ask. How does the reliability compare?????? And I am NOT talking about a mere 1000 hrs time. I would want to know how HST compares in 4000hr and above test as we have that data for the many many old tractors still in use with gear drive. I don't think there is any question on which is easier and faster to use...the HST wins hands down and I use and enjoy the old gear drive and manual trans. cars. This is kinda like comparing lawn mowers, the old tractor type compared to a ZTR, the ZTR will out mow any other type hands down.

 

[dynasim]

Torque(drawbar pull) doesn't equal hp.

Chris

 

[N80]

This is kinda like comparing lawn mowers, the old tractor type compared to a ZTR, the ZTR will out mow any other type hands down.

I think that's why this thread is as long as it is. I just don't believe that there is a "hands down" or "order of magnitude" difference in any of the types of tasks the two can perform. I think if that were true, their would be little reason for geared machines to be in production at all.

 

[deere755]

Ok I have read through all this and still dont see the main question I would ask. How does the reliability compare?????? And I am NOT talking about a mere 1000 hrs time. I would want to know how HST compares in 4000hr and above test as we have that data for the many many old tractors still in use with gear drive. I don't think there is any question on which is easier and faster to use...the HST wins hands down and I use and enjoy the old gear drive and manual trans. cars. This is kinda like comparing lawn mowers, the old tractor type compared to a ZTR, the ZTR will out mow any other type hands down.

This is exactly what I am wanting to know. Will a gear hold up better over the life of the tractor 3000 to 4000 hrs over a HST doing heavy tillage work? thanks.

 

[N80]

Torque(drawbar pull) doesn't equal hp.

Chris

If you are saying that HP and torque aren't the same, then that's exactly my point.

If you are saying that drawbar stats are given in pound-feet and not HP, then thats good because it seems like torque is a much better indicator of what a tractor can do than HP, especially engine HP.

I have never seen drawbar or torque curves on any of the types of tractors I have researched (primarily Kubotas).

 

[N80]

This is exactly what I am wanting to know. Will a gear hold up better over the life of the tractor 3000 to 4000 hrs over a HST doing heavy tillage work? thanks.

I think it would be mostly speculation. On the one hand, gear tractors are simple and have proven durability. On the other hand, a fluid drive system probably softens and even prevents a lot of the repetitive shock loads that wear a tranny and engine down.

And regarding heavy tillage, we likely will never know. I doubt anyone does heavy, long term tillage with an HST CUT. And I don't think HST type systems are common on the bigger Ag tractors, but if they are, it still would be an open question because an 8 wheeled, 4wd, 400hp articulated tractor has very little else in common with a CUT.

I still want to know if there is a typical major failure in either one...which one is cheaper to fix? And which one is easier to work on? I can guess at the answer but don't know it for a fact.

 

[MossRoad]

Ok I have read through all this and still dont see the main question I would ask. How does the reliability compare?????? And I am NOT talking about a mere 1000 hrs time. I would want to know how HST compares in 4000hr and above test as we have that data for the many many old tractors still in use with gear drive. I don't think there is any question on which is easier and faster to use...the HST wins hands down and I use and enjoy the old gear drive and manual trans. cars. This is kinda like comparing lawn mowers, the old tractor type compared to a ZTR, the ZTR will out mow any other type hands down.

I had a late 70's IH2500B tractor loader. 4 cylinder gas engine, 50 PTO HP, 8000 pound with cab and filled tires. It had thousands of hours on it when I sent it to the big recycling bin in the sky (IH salvage yard as an organ donor) a couple years ago. The only thing left on it that still worked well was the HST tranny. It still had guts!!

 

[Baby Grand]

If you are saying that drawbar stats are given in pound-feet and not HP, then thats good because it seems like torque is a much better indicator of what a tractor can do than HP, especially engine HP.

HP remains constant through a speed ratio reduction (minus losses) and torque divides, so for torque to be your yardstick it would have to be given at equivalent rpms, which I think you were getting at before:

The tractor companies, that I've looked at anyway, don't even publish the RPMs at which max HP is achieved.

Lacking raw data, it looks like we're going to have to go all empirical and drag some sleds. Would ESPN sponsor a TBN tractor pull?

 

[MossRoad]

I just don't believe that there is a "hands down" or "order of magnitude" difference in any of the types of tasks the two can perform.

Doubting Thomas

We get the same comments in the Power Trac design VS conventional tractor design discussions. In many tasks, the Power Trac design (or Steiner, Ventrac, any of the articulating everything out front machines) will simply run circles around a conventional tractor of the same weight and HP. Honest. Ask anyone that has operated both types and they will tell you the same thing. Some tools are better at some jobs than other tools. They will also tell you that conventional tractors are better at other jobs. It really is true and you owe it to yourself to use a tool and see how it works. You may find something you like better. Just like trying new foods, different beer, etc... you have nothign to lose.

 

[N80]

Doubting Thomas

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Oh well, I fall short on the meakness scale too.

Some tools are better at some jobs than other tools.

Right. But after building my own cabin and tractor shed I'm still pretty sure I don't need a $250 framing hammer. My $30 hammer serves me quite well and even though I've never used a $250 hammer I did use a $150 hammer. It was better. But not $120 better for a weekend warrior. So the analogy can only be stretched so far. (And no, nail guns do not fit the analogy either.)

It really is true and you owe it to yourself to use a tool and see how it works. You may find something you like better. Just like trying new foods, different beer, etc... you have nothign to lose.

How would I go about trying an HST sufficiently enough for the 'gotta be an HST veteran' gang to accept that I'd really given it a thorough go? In other words, another trip around the parking lot at the dealer is not going to do it. I'm certainly not going to rent one. I've got as much or more tractor than I need already. I don't have any friends near by with an HST. If any of you guys want to drop yours off at my place, believe me, I'll put it through its paces. But in a practical sense, there is not much way to do it and it is a little more complicated than trying a new beer....for which I am always game.

But once again (did I see that horse twitch?) even if I found an HST, used it and loved it (and became a new convert to the cult) I could not afford it. I can't afford two tractors and if it had to be an even swap...wait for it...here it comes....its not going to have enough HP to meet my needs.

Seriously though, if anyone out there has a 45 hp HST that they are willing to lend me (lender beware, I'm going to work the dickens out of it) I'm all for it!

 

[Soundguy]

The 'even' money is the issue that most here are missing.. .. for even dollars.. i think it will be hard to find a similarly equipped, and sized machine.. with the same hp,, and yeyt one model has a gear trans.. and one an HST.. since it isn't even money.. you have to kick the hst back down till you get even money for a direct dollar to dollar comparison.. that is going to yeild lower hp .. etc.

soundguy

 

[SPYDERLK]

How would I go about trying an HST sufficiently enough for the 'gotta be an HST veteran' gang to accept that I'd really given it a thorough go? In other words, another trip around the parking lot at the dealer is not going to do it. I'm certainly not going to rent one. I've got as much or more tractor than I need already. I don't have any friends near by with an HST. If any of you guys want to drop yours off at my place, believe me, I'll put it through its paces. But in a practical sense, there is not much way to do it and it is a little more complicated than trying a new beer....for which I am always game.

But once again (did I see that horse twitch?) even if I found an HST, used it and loved it (and became a new convert to the cult) I could not afford it. I can't afford two tractors and if it had to be an even swap...wait for it...here it comes....its not going to have enough HP to meet my needs.

Seriously though, if anyone out there has a 45 hp HST that they are willing to lend me (lender beware, I'm going to work the dickens out of it) I'm all for it!

Why not rent one for a day to do loader and sensitive all terrain work around your place? You could even plan some HD mowing/and or ground engagement. HP just lets you do things faster.-- It is forcexdistance/time or force x speed. Assuming the tractors are about equal in weight they will both do the HD work because of similar traction and stability - if the HST has lower HP it will just be slower [a lower "gearing" in its infinitely variable transmission] for the HD stuff. The equal weight and the expectation that you wont be able to do field tillage as fast with less HP will still give you a good basis to compare the HST characteristics w/o having identical HP.
larry

 

[dmccarty]

I FOUND it.

When I was looking to by a tractor in 1999/2000 I had to start making notes regarding prices, models, specs, etc. I was afraid I had thrown out the notes but I found them.

Woo Hoo.

I looked at Kubota, New Holland, and JD tractors.

A JD4700 PowerReverser is 21,355. Same tractor with HST was 22,910. A difference of 1,555. HP was 41.5 vs 40.0

A TC40 with gears was 15,600 and with HST was 17,500. A difference of 1,900. HP was 35 vs 33.2

TC35 with gears was 14,700 and HST was 16,600. 1,900 difference again. HP was 29.6 vs 29.1 which is not much of a difference. Typeo?

I don't trust my Kubota numbers. The HP numbers must be for the engine not PTO since they are the same across trannies. There was basically no price difference in between the tractors with different trannies. A L4310 was 17699 with HST vs 17600 with GST.

These are all qoutes and not MSRP. I bought JD because of price, features, and the dealer. The Kubota dealers near me were not real trustworthy. One did not even want to do business with me. He just wanted to sell backhoes no CUTS.

So there is more information.

I'll go back to lurking and listening to Zen Master George. Its a strange world when there aer 6'4" Zen Masters in SC! Who would have thunk it!

Later,
Dan

 

[Soundguy]

Not all speed issue can be discounted with a casual wave of the hand.

Disc harrowing and moldboard plowing do have a speed element involved or elseyou don't get good results.

while crawling at .0025 mph may be great for roto-tilling.. it wouls stink for plowing or discing.

thus speed, and ( hp ) will make some difference on the intended application. ever moldboard plow way slow and have problems getting the turned soil to lay over right?

soundguy

Why not rent one for a day to do loader and sensitive all terrain work around your place? You could even plan some HD mowing/and or ground engagement. HP just lets you do things faster.-- It is forcexdistance/time or force x speed. Assuming the tractors are about equal in weight they will both do the HD work because of similar traction and stability - if the HST has lower HP it will just be slower [a lower "gearing" in its infinitely variable transmission] for the HD stuff. The equal weight and the expectation that you wont be able to do field tillage as fast with less HP will still give you a good basis to compare the HST characteristics w/o having identical HP.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

I FOUND it.

When I was looking to by a tractor in 1999/2000 I had to start making notes regarding prices, models, specs, etc. I was afraid I had thrown out the notes but I found them.

I looked at Kubota, New Holland, and JD tractors.

A JD4700 PowerReverser is 21,355. Same tractor with HST was 22,910. A difference of 1,555. HP was 41.5 vs 40.0

A TC40 with gears was 15,600 and with HST was 17,500. A difference of 1,900. HP was 35 vs 33.2

TC35 with gears was 14,700 and HST was 16,600. 1,900 difference again. HP was 29.6 vs 29.1 which is not much of a difference. Typeo?

I don't trust my Kubota numbers. The HP numbers must be for the engine not PTO since they are the same across trannies. There was basically no price difference in between the tractors with different trannies. A L4310 was 17699 with HST vs 17600 with GST.

So there is more information.

I'll go back to lurking and listening to Zen Master George. Its a strange world when there aer 6'4" Zen Masters in SC! Who would have thunk it!
Later,
Dan

Maybe Kubota tweaks the engines of the HSTs a smidge to make up for HYD losses. ..... Or maybe BS like you said. Anybody know?
larry

 

[N80]

Why not rent one for a day to do loader and sensitive all terrain work around your place?

Are you kidding? I guess I'm just a little more Scottish (tight wad, stingy) than most but there is no way I'm going to drop a couple hundred bucks to rent a machine that might do some things better and some things worse than the machine I sacrificed to buy while it just sits there. If everything that every HST proponent has said was true or even twice as good, that still isn't going to get me to drop more money to play on a tractor.

HP just lets you do things faster.

Soundguy has addressed this already. But yes, going slow with a moldboard pretty much just puts a deep slash in the ground and the disk does not move the soil as it was designed to. So its not just a theoretical concern with speed if you do these things.

 

[N80]

A JD4700 PowerReverser is 21,355. Same tractor with HST was 22,910. A difference of 1,555. HP was 41.5 vs 40.0

That's good data. And pretty well illustrates what we've been saying. The HP loss between the two machines is trivial. The price difference is not trivial (at least to me). And that is a comparison with a grear tractor that also has the power reverser feature. If it was a straight gear drive the price difference would have likely been larger, as illustrated in the other two examples.

From what I've seen, the price difference between a gear L4400 and an HST 4400 is around $1500-$2000. That's a chunk-o-change in my book. Thats a good sized implement you could buy with that additional money, etc etc.

So there is more information./quote]

Thanks, it is helpful to put some fimr numbers into the discussion.

I'll go back to lurking and listening to Zen Master George. Its a strange world when there aer 6'4" Zen Masters in SC! Who would have thunk it!

Later,
Dan

Thank you Grasshopper. The way of the clutch is narrow but the enlightenment is broad.

 

[Soundguy]

I thought women were broads..

soundguy

 

[N80]

I thought women were broads..

soundguy

Some of them a broader than others and Confucius say: It is unwise to say anything further on that subject.

 

[dmccarty]

Maybe Kubota tweaks the engines of the HSTs a smidge to make up for HYD losses. ..... Or maybe BS like you said. Anybody know?
larry

Just to clarify.

I don't trust MY Kubota numbers. I'm pretty sure the HP is engine and not PTO. And I'm not sure about the prices either. I don't know if I got them from the same dealer or different dealers. My guess is that I parsed them from the Carver website. And the prices may have been a package deal and thus not easy to figure out real tractor costs. The Kubota dealers I talked too in the 1999/2000 time frame did not impress me at all. If I had gone for a Kubota I would have bought at Carver even though he is not that close to me.

Maybe someone has prices and specs on today's tractors.

And we can continue The Great Debate. This is better than my tractor brand is better than your tractor brand!

Later,
Grasshopper