Gear drive vs hydro

[N80]

Think they need to borrow my avatar?

We're not beating the horse now, we're just keeping the flies off.

Don't ask me why.

 

[jake98]

Thanks John,

Maybe we should have a 'test ride town hall debate' and invite everybody.

Jake

 

[jake98]

George, for cryin out loud, it took you 50 pages to say you never used one. Where are the flys comming from?

Dargo, where'd you get that ***-kickin .... avatatr? can I borrow it?

Men, I have to desert yous now...; the pandora thing... thanks jake

 

[N80]

I put double quotes around a healthy pet peeeve. what is real work, a fisherman would think it's another typo. Personally I think everything I do is on the real side.

I think the working definition of real work is the work that you get paid for and wouldn't be doing if you didn't.

(other than typing gibberish late at nite here), that's just plain fun.

Its has been fun and about the only fun I've had this weekend since I've been doing my own 'real work' (see my definition above) most of it....and no drinking games allowed.

this is supposed to be about gear/hydro not how much can sombody afford or how far can i puff out my chest...

You have much to learn, Grasshopper.

I mean good grief, there are guys here admitting that they have HST tractors with R4's on them. I don't know about you, but I don't want those guys in the same locker room with me. (Unwad panties fellows, its a joke).

nobody answered yet if they have syncro on a CUT...

I think the smallest Kubota that is fully synchronized is the M5040 and its really not a CUT. But I have not plumbed the depths of Grand L specs. For what its worth, a fully synchronized tranny with shuttle shift would be, to me, in my twisted little world, absolute perfection in tranny design.

 

[N80]

George, for cryin out loud, it took you 50 pages to say you never used one. Where are the flys?

I've had plenty of company fanning the flies....wouldn't you say?

But I don't know why folks keep saying I've never used one. I have and detailed that experience somewhere within these "50 pages".

You must have missed it.

 

[N80]

N80,

Your points on pulling a 2 bottom or what ever in "just barely" mode with a gear tractor and not able to with an HST is fallacious.

I disagree. I'll explain further down

There are 3 HP's that are important with tractors, as you know. (I'm adding this for those that are less knowledgeable).

Thank you.

But, there is also the drawbar HP. That's the load that can be pulled. It's a function of tire design, weight and 3pt design geometry. An L4400 FST, GST and HST will all be too close to distinguish in drawbar hp with the same tires, balance and geometry of all are practically identical.

If you know this for a fact I will gladly concede my first point. But I'd like to see some actual data that says this is true. As I have been led to understand it by the HST experts here at TBN that there is significant HP lost, to some degree as heat, in an HST vs straight geared. Of course, we will contend with what is 'significant'. But if I'm barely making it with 30 hp at the draw bar, then 28 isn't going to cut it, right?

I know I can pull a 2x14 bottom plow with a L3410 hst thru sod bound soil that hasn't seen tillage in 20+ years.

Thats is not relevant. I am not in any way suggesting an HST can't pull this or that implement through this or that soil. That's specifically why I framed the example in terms of whatever conditions it took to tax the geared tractor. Any less HP and it may be taxed beyond its ability.

With 99% probability a L3410 FST would not be able to pull a 3x14. I doubt that an L4400 would pull a 3x14, but it may.

Again, this is dependent on conditions. In my soil, the 4400 could not pull a 3x14. In my soil, under certain conditions, it can barely pull 2. Under those conditions, any less tractor would be at best overworked, at worst inadequate.

But it would take at least a 15 hp jump to pull an extra bottom and to get that hp gain, it's more than the typical cost difference gear to hst.

That's not right. At least not when I was buying 3 years ago. And it is THE crux of my argument. Not 4400DT vs 4400HST. The comparison is 4400DT vs smaller GL HST. The price is equal. In other words, $19,000 gets you gears and 45 hp or HST and about 30 or 32. The HP difference is around 12. Ten to 12 less HP and that 2 bottom plow is not going to go real far in our 'bull tallow' soil and that 7 foot disk is going to be a real challenge. This is a real and very practical consideration.

Maybe I do more loader work than most. Dunno. But I feel more is done in less time with the smaller hst tractor, and it's on the order of hours per day and not fractional minutes when there is a job exceeding a day's length.

I can't and wouldn't argue that. It makes sense to me.

 

[jake98]

I'm sure.

Didn't want to put you on the spot but nobody else wants to talk. I remeember the p/l.

reemeeberthis.... talk to you tomorrow geo.

jake

 

[jk96]

I mean good grief, there are guys here admitting that they have HST tractors with R4's on them. I don't know about you, but I don't want those guys in the same locker room with me. (Unwad panties fellows, its a joke).

N80 I'm assuming that was directed at me and my useless tractor.

Man I really need some snow here so I can get back on the tractor. I've wasted more time on TBN this week posting comments that contribute absolutely nothing than I have in 6 months.

 

[MossRoad]

I put double quotes around a healthy pet peeeve. what is real work, a fisherman would think it's another typo. Personally I think everything I do is on the real side. (other than typing gibberish late at nite here), that's just plain fun.

this is supposed to be about gear/hydro not how much can sombody afford or how far can i puff out my chest...

nobody answered yet if they have syncro on a CUT...

jake

what's up? you guys all trying out pandora.com? i can't hear you...

It was a joke between Soundguy and me. I have a little dinky tractor and he has some big iron.

 

[N80]

N80 I'm assuming that was directed at me and my useless tractor.

Nope. Not directed at any one person. I'm sure there are lots of folks with the HST/R4 combination who are...how should we say....still in the closet. And I'm okay with that, but it probably is more healthy to just get out there, admit it and be proud of it!

I've wasted more time on TBN this week posting comments that contribute absolutely nothing than I have in 6 months.

Contributing nothing!?!? Don't sell yourself short. This has been the most entertaining thread in months. And laughing is good for us. Even when we seem to be laughing alone...which makes us look crazy....but we're not.

 

[Soundguy]

OK, maybe I just drive into a pile differently.
I don't see a need to push at all hard at zero speed, I tend to lift/curl as I go into the pile with the clutch fully engaged..

I tend to do similar to what you do.. drive into a pile, clutch fully engaged, lifting and curling the bucket as i go.. when the tires start to slip.. that's when I've got the bucket full enough and tip her full back and start my reverse... no clutch slipping other than for normal change of direction..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

That's not a real comparison.

The small difference is equal hp machines.. if we are actually compairing money.. then you have an hst machine that is perhaps quite smaller than the gear... then you have a significant pto hp difference... not a 5% one.

soundguy

Just like what PTO intensive jobs that a gear transmission's 5% makes a noticeable difference for that same 99.999% ? You can't often buy a larger sized attachment based on 1-2 more hp. And if $$ are a concern the added cost of the larger attachment needs to be considered too. But... These "theoretical" argumentative points are delving down into the nit-picking area.

The tractors with hst are often the ones that are also "feature encrusted" as one poster put it where the gear tractors are "economy". Not a real fair comparison as the hst is blamed for all the cost differential. It's more a features vs economy argument. Would the argument still hold if the economy tractor was manual steering and the hst was powersteering? The PS pump takes hp away from the pto same as the HST does? Better go strip off that pump so you can get a 73" rotary cutter...

Some seem to be against any improvements. I'll bet they wish they had a hand crank on the front of the machine too. Then they could get rid of the alternator and have a 74" cutter.

Let's get real. They make multiple options for multiple uses and likes/dislikes. Why does it make a difference what a person that you will never see buys? I for one don't have a stock portfolio based on HST transmissions!

jb

 

[Soundguy]

For those that cannot turn around to look while backing up.. or who are not good at it.. then a standard parking spot for your implements, and then lines painted on the ground should let you line up virtually perfectly.... pull forward to get parallel and on the line. then backup straight with 3pt lifted and then back till you hit the paint line for your tires to stop at... this all can be done looking forward and down at your front tires... or.. optionally.. rear view mirros ont he front of your cannopy can be used... I'd also seen side mirrors on tractors before....

soundguy

Recognizing that I might anger the safety gods here is my tale. My implements are stored outside and hooking up to my Bush Hog was always a fight. I have a hard time twisting around so getting a good alignment to the Bush Hog was difficult. usually I could get one side hooked and would need to move something to hook the other side. The Bush Hog was too heavy for me to move. Vernon

 

[Soundguy]

Don't think a gear drive is stronger. All the power is transferred through the same weak stub axles which do break.
The hydrostat might be far better for insurance against breakage.

It's been reported that you can get some relief valve opening on the HST is some places where you are only getting some tire slippage with a gear.

I also remeber a quite funny story about an hst ( kubota i think) trapped at the bottom of a gully that it's hst wouldn't crawl out of...

Soundguy

 

[N80]

I tend to do similar to what you do.. drive into a pile, clutch fully engaged, lifting and curling the bucket as i go.. when the tires start to slip.. that's when I've got the bucket full enough and tip her full back and start my reverse... no clutch slipping other than for normal change of direction..

soundguy

Me too. Same way.

My owners manual also makes an interesting note, that does not have anything to do with this post....but so what. In any case, it mentions that pushing harder, or re-attempting a scoop in order to get a full bucket with each load is less efficient than just going with the less full load more frequently. In other words, struggling to get the loader completely full is a waste of time for typical loader operations......as in real work.

 

[Soundguy]

Thanks! So there's a chart around the edge of the tach with different rings for different gears for different RPMS? Anyone got a picture of that. Sounds interesting.

Yep.. here's a pic... meter denotes rpm in hundreds.. and there is a ring for each gear that shows ground speed in mph.. thus.. look at the needle, and then choose the ring for the gear you are in.. and you have ground speed... etc.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

You and I have had this discussion before... you actually do real work with your machines and most of these folks do not.

Well.. I can't say on the real or not real issue.. i just know that, for me, setting in a seat for 6 hours mowing a field vs setting in a seat for 2 hours mowing a field, and having those other 4 hrs available for other chores is a nice thing.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

I think the working definition of real work is the work that you get paid for and wouldn't be doing if you didn't..

I think you could also say that real work is work that you would have to pay others to do.. if you weren't doing it yourself.

IE.. I'd ahve to pay others to mow my fields for me.. If i didn't mow them. At current mowing rates... It's MUCh cheaper for me to mow them per year.. even figuring the cost of the tractor i bought to do so... If I paid to have them mowed.. I'd have to let them grow up alot more inbetween cuttings due to the price.. etc.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

It was a joke between Soundguy and me. I have a little dinky tractor and he has some big iron.

.. hey.. at least i restrained myself from using the 'riding lawnmower' analogy at any point in this conversation.. :0

soundguy

 

[MossRoad]

Yep.. here's a pic... meter denotes rpm in hundreds.. and there is a ring for each gear that shows ground speed in mph.. thus.. look at the needle, and then choose the ring for the gear you are in.. and you have ground speed... etc.

soundguy

Thanks for the picture. Weird that it reads counter clockwise, though.

Pretty neat and simple concept.