Grapple Grappling for answers on Grapples

[Samandothers]

Daveinnh -
Thank you for your comments. I talked with WR Long today. I was/am leaning toward what they call an open bottom grapple vs the root grapple as they call it which some others refer as the clam shell grapple. I like the open bottom as you can slip up under items and then close the top tines. The person at WR Long offered that the clam shell (their root rake) has some advantages too. The load in closer to the loader so more lift or load available. The design is like a blade that you can lower the tines in the ground and push to deal with roots and the pressure is more on the loader arms than the cyclinders. Also the clam shell allows the top tines to close down closer to the 'back' of the grapple so you can grab or squeeze better a single pole or tree. He was very helpful.

I now discovers about 4 different companies in Denton NC that make and sell these items. I have yet to get price from WR Long as I must go through a dealer. So far other companies for a 60 or 63 inch is about 1500 to 1800. These all seem stout units with 1/2' steel two cyclinders and two top grapples. The weight on most are about 700lbs. WR Long is a bit lighter.

 

[Mike058]

I have a WR Long RBG2-60 grapple for use on a Kubota L4310. Not a lot of use, but it's very handy for moving small boulders ~ limit 1,200 lb. Brush gathering is good, log loading - less so.

I expected the holding power to be greater, but the upper arm doesn't have a lot of holding power - could be redesigned, IMO. I also looked at an ANBO, but couldn't justify the price extra.

In your opinion, is the lack of log holding power because of the shape of the upper arm?

 

[IslandTractor]

In your opinion, is the lack of log holding power because of the shape of the upper arm?

With a clamshell grapple the bottom tines are vertical or close to it and there is no horizontal base for logs to rest on so they can be held in place by gravity. Instead all gripping is "active" and depends on the shape and size of the load. If you have a really big bite of brush mixed with wood it is possible that the grapple arm would compress the wood in place but not fully compress the brush which could then leak out. Also if you pick up a bunch of smaller logs, the grapple may compress against some of the logs deep in the grapple jaw before the grapple securely encloses the outside logs which could then slip out. Brush falling out is to some extent also an issue with other types of grapples but seems more an issue with the clamshell (eg RBG style). Logs however are very securely held by the non clamshell type even when there are multiple logs of different sizes.

The Long OBG style (almost identical to Millonzi, Markham etc) the bottom of the grapple is longer and is horizontal in the travel position so that logs and brush are resting on it due to gravity ("passive holding") and the upper grapple arm really just needs to hold it in place to keep the load from sliding sideways or forwards.

A good analogy is in how you might carry wood to a fireplace. You can pick it up in one hand and grip it tight as you carry it to the fire (active, with your fingers acting as the upper and lower tines of a clamshell grapple), try that with two or three small logs and you'll see that they can easily fall out. The alternative is to stack the logs on your forearm (like a forklift) and use the free hand to just stabilize them as you walk (passive, using gravity to hold the log against your arm so they don't slip off. That is how a grapple with a horizontal bottom would work.

So, I would say it is not the shape of the upper arm but rather the shape and orientation of the lower arm that distinguishes the two grapple types.

 

[pitt_md]

Daveinnh -
Thank you for your comments. I talked with WR Long today. I was/am leaning toward what they call an open bottom grapple vs the root grapple as they call it which some others refer as the clam shell grapple. I like the open bottom as you can slip up under items and then close the top tines. The person at WR Long offered that the clam shell (their root rake) has some advantages too. The load in closer to the loader so more lift or load available. The design is like a blade that you can lower the tines in the ground and push to deal with roots and the pressure is more on the loader arms than the cyclinders. Also the clam shell allows the top tines to close down closer to the 'back' of the grapple so you can grab or squeeze better a single pole or tree. He was very helpful.

I now discovers about 4 different companies in Denton NC that make and sell these items. I have yet to get price from WR Long as I must go through a dealer. So far other companies for a 60 or 63 inch is about 1500 to 1800. These all seem stout units with 1/2' steel two cyclinders and two top grapples. The weight on most are about 700lbs. WR Long is a bit lighter.

WR Long offers a 48,56,64, and 72" OBG2 styles. The 56" weighs 460 lbs. I paid around $1800 for mine but that included shipping. This is the link to their web page.
OBG

 

[marksmu]

Im in the process of buying a grapple right now as well...I am 99% sure I am settling on an ANBO root grapple....heavy duty, and well built. They are a bit more expensive than some of the lighter duty grapples...but I too have a slightly larger tractor than alot of the byneters....I will be swapping it out on a 9' bucket on a 92HP tractor.

I plan on using it to clean up miles of debris that washed onto my property from Hurricane IKE in Chambers County near anahuac.

I will literally be picking up entire sections of Houses from the Gilchrist/Crystal Beach area of Galveston.

On a side note, if anyone is missing a Blue/Yellow beach house, they may retrieve it from my property before next week. After next week it will be on fire.

 

[farmboy12]

islandtractor-

We do release pressure in our lines before disconnecting. But the big problem comes when we put in on. We release by raising the claws slightly, and playing with remotes before we unhook the lines.

 

[Samandothers]

Pitt md ,
I have called several places for prices. Many of the heavier units are made with 1/2 steel and are in the 700 lb range depending on width. My loader has a lift of about 2400 at pivot so this weight leaves about 1700 in capacity vs getting a lighter grapple and leaving about 2000 in capacity. Markham and Long both have a 3/8" models that are in the 460ish pound range as you point out. The capacity of these are around 2200 lbs. Given all this I have about settled on a 56 inch open bottom type in the 3/8 steel to stay with the lighter weight. The Markham unit has one 30" top grapple the WR Long has two more narrow units. I need to go back to my dealer to get the a price on Long's model of the 3/8". I still have not settled on the control method. If I get a front mount remote I'll probably get the Kubota brand so I may run a hydraulic motor later if I have a need. Also I understand these are a 3rd function and you can control the grapple without diverting control from other loader controls. However, I have not ruled out two rear remotes and run hoses to the front. The remote controls on the Kubota L4240 would mount on the same side as the front loader control but more toward the back of the tractor thus it may be a pain to be reaching there to control the grapple. Getting closer to decision. Maybe next week. My advantage is I am with an hour or two of both Markham and WR Long and would pick up the grapple and save on shipping.

 

[dknarnd]

I have a WR Long RBG2-60 grapple for use on a Kubota L4310. Not a lot of use, but it's very handy for moving small boulders ~ limit 1,200 lb. Brush gathering is good, log loading - less so.

I expected the holding power to be greater, but the upper arm doesn't have a lot of holding power - could be redesigned, IMO. I also looked at an ANBO, but couldn't justify the price extra.

I have this same grapple and 95% of its use has been loading logs and my experience with it has been excellent for this task. If you don't keep the rpm up it will lack power but that is normal.

As you see with the attached photo I stack logs onto an old hay wagon then grasp about three or four (depending on the size) in the grapple and drive them about a quarter mile up the road before unloading them. I can stack and unload from the wagon one at a time and not damage the wood wagon bed.

 

[jake98]

My advantage is I am with an hour or two of both Markham and WR Long and would pick up the grapple and save on shipping.[/QUOTE]

Being within an hour is a real advantage. You should plan a trip to Denton and bring your camera. Lots of us would like to see the fabrication shops there. Don't forget Unlimited Fabrication. Ask some questions... I'd like to know how they all came to be in one town...
Jake

 

[Samandothers]

Denton is full of grapple vendors and Denton is not a large place! I gather that there was one that was the original fabricator in the area, which one I am not sure. Over a period of time several ex-employees went out on their own and started their own businesses. They are all very similar in price for the heavier units designed for skid steers and larger tractors. These units are in the approximately 7## lb range. Markham has larger units too but offers a 'lighter' unit for compacts, around 450 lbs. This is similar in design to the WR Long OBG-2, their open bottom grapples for compact tractors. One difference is the WR Long has two cylinders on their units over 48" wide (48" unit has one cylinder) while Markham offers one light weight unit I believe that is 60" and has one 30" wide top tine.
Given my loader capacity I will go with one of the smaller units by WR Long or Markham's smaller unit. I like the idea of the two independent tines on the WR Long's but don't know that it is worth the price difference.

Now if I can just settle on a electric over hydraulic valve for the remote.

 

[wedge40]

Denton is full of grapple vendors and Denton is not a large place! I gather that there was one that was the original fabricator in the area, which one I am not sure. Over a period of time several ex-employees went out on their own and started their own businesses. They are all very similar in price for the heavier units designed for skid steers and larger tractors. These units are in the approximately 7## lb range. Markham has larger units too but offers a 'lighter' unit for compacts, around 450 lbs. This is similar in design to the WR Long OBG-2, their open bottom grapples for compact tractors. One difference is the WR Long has two cylinders on their units over 48" wide (48" unit has one cylinder) while Markham offers one light weight unit I believe that is 60" and has one 30" wide top tine.
Given my loader capacity I will go with one of the smaller units by WR Long or Markham's smaller unit. I like the idea of the two independent tines on the WR Long's but don't know that it is worth the price difference.

Now if I can just settle on a electric over hydraulic valve for the remote.

Just to be fair Markham will make to order. I believe someone on here had them put two narrow top tines. Also Markham does have a 48". I have one. Haven't used it yet, but hope to soon. Still need hoses and fittings. I'll post photos when I do get it hooked up.

Wedge

 

[Samandothers]

Wedge let me know how you like your Markham once you get it up and running. Are you building your own 3rd function valve set up or getting a kit?
When I was talking with Melissa Markham I did not ask about other sizes of smaller units. When we were first talking I was inquiring about a 60" unit in the heavier grapple. When I asked about a smaller unit and she indicated they had a 60", could have been because we were talking about a similar size in the heavier unit and I did not pursue smaller sizes. I believe I will go with a 60" or so unit when I order from a vendor.
I may have to ask Melissa about adding the second tine. She is great to respond to questions and work with. I do like their prices too!
Thanks for the input!

 

[IslandTractor]

Given my loader capacity I will go with one of the smaller units by WR Long or Markham's smaller unit. I like the idea of the two independent tines on the WR Long's but don't know that it is worth the price difference.

Now if I can just settle on a electric over hydraulic valve for the remote.

I'd agree with your choice of grapple size. From my experience with a Millonzi 48 light duty grapple over the past three years, I'd also comment that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that I have not been able to pick up with my single upper jaw that might have been possible with a double jaw. The rationale for the double jaw grapple seems to be that it allow you to pick up asymmetrical objects as one jaw could close more tightly than the other. However, that is an entirely theoretical argument as best I can tell as I've never had trouble getting a good grip on asymmetric loads such as stumps etc. Almost any asymmetrical object likely to be moved with a grapple has symmetry if you just rotate it 90 degrees. For example, a fat stump with a skinny trunk is just picked up by approaching it from the stump side and allowing the trunk to stick out the front or the top of the grapple. No biggie. See photos. The advantages of single upper arm are obvious: less expensive and less weight. The only reason I could see using a double jawed grapple would be for construction debris where you would just drive into a big pile to clamp a bunch of trash. There the double would be helpful as it is wider.

Regarding electric over hydraulic vs rear remotes, that is a tough call that is probably dictated most by your pocketbook and amount you use the grapple. I have used rear remotes to control a grapple on my CK20 and I found it absolutely fine. The key is whether the rear remote lever is within easy, natural reach of your right hand when your hand is resting on the FEL joystick. If it is as natural as taking your hand off the steering wheel of your automobile to reach for the gearshift then rear remotes will be fine. I have a diverter valve (WRLong) on my DK40se which I frankly don't like as much but only for one reason. As the diverter is controlled by a button on top of the FEL joystick, it is obviously easy to reach, in fact a bit too easy. The difficulty I have even after a year is that I find myself, when working quickly, often releasing the diverter button just a bit sooner or holding it a bit longer than I should. If you release the button before allowing the joystick to return to neutral position you get unintended curl or dump of the grapple....not a disaster but inconvenient and confusing at times. It also means that sometimes I don't clamp as hard as I intended as I'll switch over to dump/curl before allowing the grapple to completely compress the load. This may sound confusing if you've not yet used a grapple but once you get comfortable with the grapple as an extension of your "hand", you do work pretty quickly and sharing one hydraulic circuit between grapple open/close and dump/curl is not ideal. Again, I don't hate the diverter valve and it has nothing at all to do with the WRLong kit but if I had to do it over I'd probably go with just the rear remote to start off and if I found myself using the grapple a lot then I'd install the electrohydraulic control. For occasional use the rear remote is clearly the choice in my mind but if you use the grapple a lot then consider the electrohydraulic. It is so cheap to set up the grapple control with a rear remote if you already have a set of remotes that I'd recommend doing that to begin with. You can reuse the hose and most of the fittings if you switch over to the electrohydraulic switch anyway so there is very little waste in setting up for the rear remote system.

 

[dknarnd]

Island has a good point with the rear remotes when he mentiones about the location. I set my grapple up using the rear remote and just as described when I drop my hand off of the joystick it falls onto the rear remote control just like driving a standard car. It is really pretty natural and for my use not a problem at all.

 

[wedge40]

Wedge let me know how you like your Markham once you get it up and running. Are you building your own 3rd function valve set up or getting a kit?
When I was talking with Melissa Markham I did not ask about other sizes of smaller units. When we were first talking I was inquiring about a 60" unit in the heavier grapple. When I asked about a smaller unit and she indicated they had a 60", could have been because we were talking about a similar size in the heavier unit and I did not pursue smaller sizes. I believe I will go with a 60" or so unit when I order from a vendor.
I may have to ask Melissa about adding the second tine. She is great to respond to questions and work with. I do like their prices too!
Thanks for the input!

Samandothers - I'll post once I have it up and running. Friday is my day off so I hope to get the hoses and fittings locally. I then have to change the mount system on the loader to Skid Steer QA. As far as hydraulics goes I have a 67' Ford 4000 with a Koyker loader on it. The tractor has a valve under the seat and Koyker sent a diverter plate so I could keep the valve, add the FEL and still use my 3pth. Bottom line is I already have an extra valve that I can use.
There was a nice thread on here about Markhams new light weight grapples, but it got removed for political reasons. That thread had info about the different things Markham was willing to do to make the customer happy. To name a few, extra tines on the bottom, tines with "teeth" instead of just smooth and two grapples instead of only one. I sort of jumped the gun when I bought mine and took what they were making in that phase of the design. The only thing I might have done different would have been to add teeth to the bottom tines.

Wedge

 

[Samandothers]

IslandTractor, Wedge, and Dknarnd thanks for the time to make the posts. The input is helpful. It is because of the help on this thread and the calling, talking, pricing that I have changed from a wide 72" heavy 770lb grapple to a smaller 56 to 60" unit weighing more like 450 to 500 lbs or so. I think the only thing remaining constant has been the desire for the open bottom more L or bucket shaped grapple vs the clam shell or root rake style.
As I will be working on land that is mostly wooded or areas that were clear years ago. I will/have quite a bit of use for a grapple and currently trying to use toothed bucket to move items takes too much finesse and many things I can't do. Rear remote controls if added on my tractor are back near your hip to the right at the fold of the seat. At this time I believe I will install a 3rd function on the front given the amount of use I beleive I will have. Besides that will give me a project down the road if I find I need/want rear remotes.

 

[Samandothers]

Well one commitment made. I let Melissa know at Markham Welding I'd purchase one of their 60" light duty grapples with a single top tine and added spacers in the bottom between the teeth. This will decrease the distance from 9" to 4.5". I thought about a second tine on top and decide not to. As stated in another thread regardless of which grapple you get you like the one you have. I decided to not go the extra money, failure point, and weight for the second hydraulic tine. It came down to the Markham or WR Long for light weight grapples. WR Long is a nice unit, however having to go through a dealer I was getting prices that were $500 to 600 apart and all greater than the Markham unit built with two top tines (WR Long had two top tines). Melissa is to call when the unit is ready. Now I must determine which 3rd Hydraulic valve for the loader, WR Long or Kubota. More to follow!

 

[BillBee]

I too am ready to pull the trigger on a grapple purchase and interested in Markham, but would also like to use the grapple for raking and removing surface roots. I question the flat bottom on Markham and perhaps WR Long RBGD 66 inch would be more suitable for raking.

 

[Happyman]

I too am ready to pull the trigger on a grapple purchase and interested in Markham, but would also like to use the grapple for raking and removing surface roots. I question the flat bottom on Markham and perhaps WR Long RBGD 66 inch would be more suitable for raking.

BillBee, I have the same issue. I like the broad flat bottom but think I'll need the WRLong "Root Rake Grapple" because I'm clearing land in the spring and a "real" root rake with the curved tines may suit my needs better for digging roots out while driving forward. It seems that moving trees and brush is still possible with the root rake. Are you thinking of one upper claw or two? I'm leaning toward 2.

 

[Samandothers]

I agree with you guys if the primary use is clearing and removing roots the rake design would be better and less strain on loader components than trying to use an open bottom design. I am not sure why the prices for the root rakes appear to be higher than the open bottoms for same width and number of tines. Must have more material in them. Good luck on the choice. Kinda glad the selection is behind me and ready to get the plumbing fixed and move some brush!