My very own grapples!

JustGary · Oct 15, 2008

Adding a radius to what would be a square corner (or adding a fillet to a butt joint) will certainly add strength to a part by distributing the stress that would otherwise focus at the corner.

It's also safe to say that certain holes won't weaken a part if they are properly done.

And isn't a radiused corner just a part of a hole?

In that case, since a partial hole can strengthen, and a whole hole won't weaken, then partial holes really can strengthen a part...

And the Chinese Tool Store has a special on partial drills this month! I'm going to buy some and start adding partial holes to all of my projects so they'll be stronger.

I'd better quit while I'm still just an impartial observer...

- Just Gary

kcprecision · Oct 15, 2008

Hi Folks I found this thread and skimmed through it. A very interesting project.

I have a ford 4000 that needs a new bucket on it and am thinking that will be this winters project for this year. After reading your grapple project I would like to add some to the new bucket.

At this time I have a question that was probably answered already and I missed it. So here goes, how thick is the material that you made the grapple from?

I won't be drilling any lighting holes in mine as I would guess once they are in place they will stay there and the tractor is big enough that the weight of the grappel will not be a factor.

Very nice build, you should be proud.

3RRL · Oct 15, 2008

Hi kc,
Welcome to TBN! Glad you like the grapple build too.
The material I used is 3/8" thick hot roll plate. The lightening holes were to keep the weight down for my wife's smaller tractor, but if you don't need that, it's certainly not necessary.

Are you going to get a toothbar on that bucket? I would highly recommend you do, because the bucket grapple like this works great with a toothbar. After several hundred hours using bucket grapples on this tractor and my other one, I wish I would've made the jaws long enough so they reach out all the way to the end of the toothbar teeth.

I originally designed these jaws to meet the edge of her bucket without the toothbar on. So what happens is when trying to grab stuff with a horizontal bucket, sometimes the toothbar pushes the object away a little bit and I can't grab it. So I have to make sure I'm under the object enough to grab it that way. I'm talking mostly boulders, bigger rocks and some stumps. Once I get them over the toothbar it's fine. Plus, no problem with shrubs, branches and stuff like that at all. You can see a toothbar would act like a rake or root bucket a little to make it easier to pick up stuff. With that in mind, having the jaws long enough to reach to the end of the toothbar is important.

There is another technique I use to overcome this drawback though. It's the clamshell technique where I raise the bucket up over the object in full dump mode. Then with the grapple wide open, I lower over the object making sure the toothbar tips and the grapple jaw tips touch the ground to swallow up the object into the bucket. I use that technique more for getting smaller plies of brush. Another way I use is to drive up with the bucket horizontal and the toothbar slightly lowered so the tips are even or just under the bottom of the object. Driving into it like trying to pick it. As I do that, I simultaneously start to lift and dump the bucket until it rolls the object with the roll of the bucket. Then set the grapple jaws to capture it. I use that technique more for boulders that tend to roll out of the way or if they are so big that I need the curl power to get it up after I've grabbed it. Both ways work real well, but like I said, a toothbar will make those bucket grapples work wonders.

For example, I took these pictures using my other tractor to show the technique. Here is a small pile that would scoot forward of the tractor if I just dove into it. So clamshelling the pile keeps it from getting away, it crushes it down and allows you get almost all of it neatly and cleanly.
Other stuff you can get easily like Loretta is doing with her tractor.

kcprecision · Oct 16, 2008

3RRL, I had not considered making a tooth bar for the bucket up to this time.
I don't think that I would really need a tooth bar although it would be nice at times.
A set of grapples for picking up the tree limbs after pruning is what I would be looking for.
At present, I think that I have enough steel that I could recycle into a set of grapples.
The first thing that I need to do is rebuild the bucket. Some where in a previous life the bucket had the cutting edge tore off and the metal tore away from the side of the bucket.

Who ever welded it should never have been left alone with the welder.

3RRL · Oct 16, 2008

kcprecision said:
3RRL, I had not considered making a tooth bar for the bucket up to this time.
I don't think that I would really need a tooth bar although it would be nice at times.
A set of grapples for picking up the tree limbs after pruning is what I would be looking for.
At present, I think that I have enough steel that I could recycle into a set of grapples.
The first thing that I need to do is rebuild the bucket. Some where in a previous life the bucket had the cutting edge tore off and the metal tore away from the side of the bucket.

Who ever welded it should never have been left alone with the welder.

Good luck with fixing your bucket ... first things first of course.
But I'm telling you the grapples will certainly work better, grab the limbs and stuff better with a toothbar. Although a bucket grapple will certainly do what you want, a key to successful grappling with a bucket grapple is the toothbar.
It takes the smooth edge out of play which tends NOT to help pick up limbs, cuttings and such. The tooth bar is what makes the bucket grapple act just like a real grapple that has teeth for sliding under the limbs, brush, rocks and logs much better than a solid edge. It's the slight bit of extension from the sides of your bucket that lets you get and hold those logs and stuff.
I'm saying this since you need to repair your bucket anyway, you might consider doing it all in one shot? You could make one or get one from Markham like I did. I think they are under a couple hundred bucks.
Plus you could always take it off.

kcprecision · Oct 16, 2008

Rob, I have not decided aginst the tooth bar as I can see where it could be a help.
I would have to make it so that it would be removeable but than again maybe it would not. I will see when I get to that point.
You might find this interesting. It is some pictures on photobucket of things that I have done.

kcprecision - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

3RRL · Oct 16, 2008

OK, that's good to know. lol ... I probably sound like a nut about the toothbar

.
Mine is removable but I've never had it off in over 3 years now.

I didn't go through your entire album because my Internet is very slow at the property. I did see your boat. What is that, what kind of engine?
I also see you make a lot of your own stuff like I do. So all this tractor stuff will be duck soup for you. And man, it's been a long time since I ran a horizontal boring mill. Looks like you got a couple of them? We used to do all our pocket work on horizontal mills back in the day. Chips fel out so you don't cut them twice and stuff is easy to measure.
Is that your shop in that photo then? I see an Elk and Mule deer antlers above what looks like your Bridgeport in the background. Too bad about your buddy's lathe! Where's yours?

kcprecision · Oct 16, 2008

Now that you mention it I don't have a picture of my lathe on there.

The lathe is a jet 13X40 with a anilan DRO on it. Yes the building is my shop the enclosed area is 32X48 ft.
The boat is steam. I machined the engine from a set of castings that a friend had purchased and never completed. The engine is a 3X5X4. The hull is from a WW2 liberty ship. The boat sure draws the looks when we are launching or pulling out. People can't believe that it runs on wood.

The horizontal mill is a Nichols, kind of a neat little mill. Went to an auction and started the bidding at $50 and it was mine. The Bridgeport is a Taiwan copy but it has been a good piece of machinery.It also has a anilan DRO on it.

JustGary · Oct 27, 2008

Rob -

Another silly question as I (slowly) continue my own grapple work. I have a length of 1" water hardening drill rod that I had planned to use for pins, but when I looked into zinc plating them (for a little rust control) I realized that alloy steels do not plate well (something about hydrogen embrittlement). I don't think that I can get away with chromate dipping them without zinc plating them first.

Anyway, I suspect that you used a milder steel for your pins. What did you use, and what have you done for the rust that will form on the ends (other than rub grease on them)?

Down here in Florida even the rust rusts. Plated and chromated parts tend to last much longer, so I want to do what I can to slow down the process.

Regards,

- Just Gary

3RRL · Oct 27, 2008

JustGary said:
Rob -

Another silly question as I (slowly) continue my own grapple work. I have a length of 1" water hardening drill rod that I had planned to use for pins, but when I looked into zinc plating them (for a little rust control) I realized that alloy steels do not plate well (something about hydrogen embrittlement). I don't think that I can get away with chromate dipping them without zinc plating them first.

Anyway, I suspect that you used a milder steel for your pins. What did you use, and what have you done for the rust that will form on the ends (other than rub grease on them)?

Down here in Florida even the rust rusts. Plated and chromated parts tend to last much longer, so I want to do what I can to slow down the process.

Regards,

- Just Gary

Hi Gary,
Actually, I used case hardened H-13 leader pins and bushings for her grapples.
They are left overs when I do P&M on the plastic injection mold bases. Sometimes I use Nitrided ejector pins which have a super hard surface. They all make great pins.

No rust preventative.
I figure a good amount of grease on the working surfaces should be good enough. Don't forget to make the pins so they are greasable and will lubricate the entire inner surface of the bushings. The photos below show some of what I did to do that, like add grease holes and flats on the pins. I recessed the zerk fitting to reduce the chance of snapping them off.
If I were you, I'd just heat treat that water hardening drill rod after putting the grease grooves and such in and not worry about plating them. I'd think the grease will prevent any rusting for a long time.

tlbuser · Oct 28, 2008

kcprecision said:
The boat is steam. I machined the engine from a set of castings that a friend had purchased and never completed. The engine is a 3X5X4. The hull is from a WW2 liberty ship. The boat sure draws the looks when we are launching or pulling out. People can't believe that it runs on wood.

Any chance we could see more of your steam boat? Complete with a steam whistle too ( noticed the drawing set) ?

JustGary · Oct 28, 2008

Rob -

Thanks for the pin info. I remember reading about them now that you reminded me. The Kubota pins have recessed zerks, and I plan to do that for the grapple pins. It makes a lot of sense.

I'll probably use the existing loader pins for the rake and make three new pins for the grapple. To tell you the truth, I had considered just milling the grease slots and zerks, and then just using the pins unhardened. Since you mentioned it, though, I'll do my best at giving them a good temper.

I'll post pictures of the progress I've made as soon as the new hoses come in. I'm trying to get the hydraulics done first (so I can change the transmission oil) before I start the rake and grapple.

The Pit of Despair has taken up a lot of my "spare" daylight hours, but I'm sure I'll have more questions soon...

Regards,

- Just Gary

3RRL · Oct 28, 2008

Ha, I see now why you want those grapples.

You should have made them before you started removing all that bamboo. They would've come in handy for all that clean up work for sure!

JustGary · Oct 28, 2008

Rob -

Actually, the grapple is for the 40 acres we just had cut. The timber men did a great job, but I have a few improvements I want to make before we replant, so I figured I ought to jump on the grapple while I can.

I'll probably still have to hire a dozer for the pond work, but the grapple will allow me to do the rest of the things I want done. Also, a grapple will be very valuable the next time a hurricane hits. Moving mountains of brush and fallen trees is never fun, but with a grapple it could come close...

On the other hand, I did order a tooth bar for the bamboo job. Unfortunately, they still have not shipped it. When I ordered it back in August, she thought they had enough teeth on hand to ship that week. It would have helped a lot to get through the roots and dig the first layer of dirt out. I don't understand their tooth ordering process, but it would seem that they run out just as soon as they get started.

I have not approached them about possibly doing the rake and grapple build because I haven't heard anything about the tooth bar. If I get the rake and grapple done before I get the tooth bar, I'll cancel the order and build my own.

- Just Gary

kcprecision · Nov 20, 2008

3RRL It looks like I missed a few posts here, darn.

Instead of building a bucket for the loader I found one at a implement dealer that had some use but was still in like new shape. The bucket did not fit my loader but with some cutting and welding it does fit now.

I have some more questions if you don't mind.

I am working on plans and building the grapples for the new bucket. The bucket has a different configuration than the one that you have, so some angles have/are being changed.

The grapples are being made from stuff that I have in the goodie box. For instance the teeth were cut from a 1/2 plate with a O/A torch, not the smoothest cut in the world but it will have to work.

I am at the point that I am trying to fit the cylinder to the grapples and have the grapple open up to the point that the grapple teeth are above the cutting edge.

Now that is where I am having problems, getting the collapsed cylinder distance from pin to pin to make the grapples open all the way.

Now the question, How big was the cylinder you used?

I appreciate any help that you can give me.
Charlie.

3RRL · Nov 20, 2008

kcprecision said:
3RRL It looks like I missed a few posts here, darn.

Instead of building a bucket for the loader I found one at a implement dealer that had some use but was still in like new shape. The bucket did not fit my loader but with some cutting and welding it does fit now.

I have some more questions if you don't mind.

I am working on plans and building the grapples for the new bucket. The bucket has a different configuration than the one that you have, so some angles have/are being changed.

The grapples are being made from stuff that I have in the goodie box. For instance the teeth were cut from a 1/2 plate with a O/A torch, not the smoothest cut in the world but it will have to work.

I am at the point that I am trying to fit the cylinder to the grapples and have the grapple open up to the point that the grapple teeth are above the cutting edge.

Now that is where I am having problems, getting the collapsed cylinder distance from pin to pin to make the grapples open all the way.

Now the question, How big was the cylinder you used?

I appreciate any help that you can give me.
Charlie.

Hi Charlie,
The cylinder I used is a 2" bore x 6" stoke.
They are readily available at Surplus Center with several choices and costs. I think I got one for about 60 or 70 bucks.

Regarding finding your base position of the cylinder, I presume you're using some sort of CAD and have already picked a pivot point for the grapples themselves on the bucket? You need to use the fully extended length of the cylinder when the grapple is closed. Draw a circle using that dimension using the centerline of your front grapple cylinder connection. Then rotate the grapple up to full open and draw a circle using the closed cylinder length. Where the two circles intersect is where the rear cylinder pivot should be. If they don't intersect at all, you'll need to pick another spot for the front cylinder connection and redo the procedure until you get the two circles to intersect. You might have to do this a couple times or even change how much the grapple opens up.

kcprecision · Nov 20, 2008

Thanks Rob, the cylinder size was what I needed. I have been trying to find the anchor points for a larger cylinder. I don't have the cylinder yet, the one that I was going to cut down definitely would not work so I need to find another one.

Finding the anchor point suggestion is a big help, thanks very much.The drawing program that I am using is called Auto Sketch.

Now, TLBUSER, some how I missed your request about the boat, sorry.
If you go to the following link and check the left hand column and click on "steam launch" that should give you some pictures. My boat is the yellow one.

kcprecision - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting