KL130 loader fix released.

[mrutkaus]

I have the KL130 kit, it fits tightly.

I'm a bad welder, but have thought of welding it at the ends. You can ALMOST make it to the side arms, it is very close and if I were a real welder I could probably figure a way to do it.

Anyway, of course I haven't taken it off to check the cracks, but it is tight. And very heavy.

Mike

 

[4shorts]

Interesting Taesung site. Thx for posting, Don.

Probably the best solution to strengthening the KL130 & 120 involves
welding outside the factory. That is a big unknown for Kioti, so they
agonized over a "solution" that did not involve welding.

You've made a real good point here and I don't think your to far off the mark.

Although I'm not a Kioti owner I almost was and I've been watching this subject for a week or so now with great interest.

A few years ago I purchased a new touring motorcycle. A week into owning the bike I inspected there all new aluminum frame on my bike that the manufacture was so proud of and I noticed in one section of the frame there were two welds that were just terrible looking. I called the head office of that manufacture and they basically said not to worry and there was nothing to be concerned about.

Almost a year after that call and after every ride on that bike I found the crack I was waiting for right where I said it would appear. I got the dealer, the manufacture and Transport Canada involved and by the time it was all said and done almost 15.000 units here in Canada were taken back and re-welded or in some cases had there frames replaced at no cost to the customer.

Things happen in the building process and I'm sure we all know that but in the motorcycles case the manufacture did the right thing and looked after there customers.

In this case I get the feeling it's not the customer Kioti is worried about. To go so long before there was even a fix seems very odd to me and then to find out it's only a "Bolt on" fix appears to be the cheapest way out and maybe not the best way. By coming out with the bolt on fix they can have there dealers do it which is cheaper for them.

In the case of my motorcycle the dealers picked up the motorcycle, removed the necessary parts off the bike and sent the bike out to a centralized welding shop that was pre approved by them to do the repair at no cost to me what so ever and to date there has never been another crack reported on anyone's motorcycle.

If it were my tractor I would expect Kioti to come and get my tractor. Do the necessary repairs and return with it in a timely manner and a bolt on band aid repair wouldn't do it for me.

This was one of the deciding factors why I dropped my Kioti purchase this past week and went with Kubota and after reading the new "Fix" I'm happy I did. I hope it works out ok for you guys and I know how frustrating all this stuff can be. Just my two cents worth!

 

[IslandTractor]

In the case of my motorcycle the dealers picked up the motorcycle, removed the necessary parts off the bike and sent the bike out to a centralized welding shop that was pre approved by them to do the repair at no cost to me what so ever and to date there has never been another crack reported on anyone's motorcycle.

If it were my tractor I would expect Kioti to come and get my tractor. Do the necessary repairs and return with it in a timely manner and a bolt on band aid repair wouldn't do it for me.

This was one of the deciding factors why I dropped my Kioti purchase this past week and went with Kubota and after reading the new "Fix" I'm happy I did. I hope it works out ok for you guys and I know how frustrating all this stuff can be. Just my two cents worth!

I have been involved in this loader fix thing since the beginning. I had a KL120 with cracks that I finally traded to a dealer before getting it fixed so I never did install the kit. I've been very critical of Kioti's management of the whole problem especially regarding their lack of timely communication.

I do however think there is a real difference between fixing frame welds on a 140mph motorcycle and torsion tube cracks on a piece of farm equipment. For starters there is the safety issue. Obviously life threatening with a motorcycle frame but much less likely to result in bodily harm with a tractor loader. Secondly there is the issue that a major motorcycle manufacturer like Honda or Yamaha etc have resources (and liability) that a relatively small tractor manufacturer is not going to be able to bring to bear on the problem. A motorcycle is a lot easier and far less expensive to transport to a centralized welding facility. The direct welding repair would not have been sufficient for the Kioti loader anyway as it was not a welding failure but rather a design defect that left too much stress on unsupported corners of a hose cut out. Welding those corners would be a temporary solution. There would need to be some additional support engineered into the fix. Additionally, if you look back at the first report on TBN of the cracking issue you will see one reason why Kioti chose not to go with a welding fix. Some local idiot tried to weld a bridge on to Highbeam's loader. Kioti has no control over the welding skills of it's dealers subcontractors and they would have had innumerable headaches trying to maintain quality control. While a bolt on fix may be inelegant, if the engineering is correct (can we trust that???), it should be fine for the loader function and life. Agricultural implements are traditionally patched back together and I for one do not expect Kioti to respond as though a brand new Porsche had a defect requiring either a functional but inelegant patch or replacement of an expensive part.

Kioti does not do well in communicating but in general they seem about average with responsiveness to warranty and post warranty repair issues. They have a history of updating or fixing problems that occur in or out of the warranty period. They just suck at communication. Kubota has also had issues they did not respond to promptly such as the BX fenders, the B seats and some L PTO issues to mention a few. I don't follow JD or NH very closely but I am sure there are equivalent tales of woe in those camps as well.

 

[4shorts]

I have been involved in this loader fix thing since the beginning. I had a KL120 with cracks that I finally traded to a dealer before getting it fixed so I never did install the kit. I've been very critical of Kioti's management of the whole problem especially regarding their lack of timely communication.

I do however think there is a real difference between fixing frame welds on a 140mph motorcycle and torsion tube cracks on a piece of farm equipment. For starters there is the safety issue. Obviously life threatening with a motorcycle frame but much less likely to result in bodily harm with a tractor loader. Secondly there is the issue that a major motorcycle manufacturer like Honda or Yamaha etc have resources (and liability) that a relatively small tractor manufacturer is not going to be able to bring to bear on the problem. A motorcycle is a lot easier and far less expensive to transport to a centralized welding facility.

Well I was deeply involved in the motorcycle recall and everyone who had invested up to $50.000 in there bikes were not impressed either with the cracking issue we had. How much do you want to bet that it would be cheaper to ship a small tractor than a touring bike? There's allot to deal with shipping a motorcycle my friend.

The dealers had to strip them down. Box them and secure them. The manufacture had to make sure quality control was imperative and each and every bike had to be inspected. After the re-weld was completed the bike had to be shipped back to the selling dealer, re-assembled and passed back to the customer which was done and done well I might add.

If Kioti is going to compete on the world market as a tractor manufacture they better get there crap in a pile by taking care of there customers. If they have a commutation problem they better get that straighted out as well.

We all pay for these things with our hard earned money and regardless if it's a safety issue or not if there's a defect we as customers deserve to have it addressed in a timely manner. If Kioti is not prepared to deal with issues like this on a global scale they may as well just sell there tractors in Korea and nowhere else.

I've operated many types of equipment and let me say that these days if you have a light out on a machine your told to do out a safety report and park the machine so I wonder what some of them safety inspectors would do if they seen a crack no matter where it was on the tractor. My bet the tractor wouldn't be allowed on the job site so I have to flatly disagree with you sir.

In my mind a crack is a crack and if there's a crack it should be repaired no mater if it's a motorcycle or a tractor. Would you sigh a paper stating that these cracks on these tractors in no way can cause any danger to anyone? I doubt it very much.

Kioti should fix these cracks right with no cost what so ever to there customers and when they are repaired tell there customers that it will be covered for the life of the tractor. That's how you build customer confidence.

Having a PTO, engine or any mechanical issue is almost expected in everything but when you get the same crack in the same type of tractor that's an engineering problem and not the fault of the customer. Kioti should do there best to win back there customers confidence or they will never get them back as a customer.

 

[Gittyup]

I agree with 4shorts. The only acceptable solution here is to replace the loader arms. The cylinders, stands and other components from the defective arms could be reused. Let the owners decide if they want to replace the arms themselves or take their tractor to the dealers. I think most would be satisfied with this solution. While I have no concrete numbers to support this, I'd bet the cost to Kioti in past and future sales will exceed the cost difference between the loader arms and the "fix".

It matters not how one wants to characterize this failure. It's clear this is an engineering design flaw and the manufacuturer should make it right. Those that are stuck with the cracks, or the "fix" will have a hard time getting a good price for their machines when they go to sell. Even those that have the new style arms will be affected to some degree: "But..... Wait! it's the new style loader." It won't have that problem!" Right! Guys looking for a good used loader tractor simply won't take the risk unless they are saving considerable money to do so. Kioti and everyone that owns one is paying for this debacle. As an owner, I sure wish they would just step up and do this right. But, I think it's too late now.

 

[dfkrug]

I have been involved in this loader fix thing since the beginning.

I have too. Lots of us shared a bit of HIGHBEAM's pain.

You are quite correct that other brands have had some design problems,
and even some customer service problems, too. I have seen some with
my own Kubotas and JDs.

In the midst of the FEL debacle, I decided to buy another new Kioti anyway.
That time (2006), a CK20. Have I regretted buying my 3 new Kiotis? No.
Would I buy another? Yes.

 

[IslandTractor]

In the midst of the FEL debacle, I decided to buy another new Kioti anyway.
That time (2006), a CK20. Have I regretted buying my 3 new Kiotis? No.
Would I buy another? Yes.

I'm only on my second Kioti but I would gladly own a third.

 

[Tractech]

I have been reading about the loader issue and for one think it is blown a little out of wack. If anyone thinks that another tractor company would have handled it better I woul like to meet that company. I worked for the "green" company for quite a while and they are notorious for these KITS and there is nothing wrong with using them. The bolt on items seem to me to be a logical solution for the company and customer. To say the loader arms and other parts should be replaced is crazy! I seen much much worse out of other big tractor comanies that end up being "patched" together. EVERY tractor company is going to try and fix the problem with the least expense and greatest success of repair no matter who they are.

 

[TBDonnelly]

I'd certainly consider another Kioti CK30/35 Hst. The active Kioti kommunity here on TBN is a big part of that. Overall, I'm quite pleased with the tractor. Especially if it had a KL130 'P' (P=Past the Kracking phase ) installed on the tractor. The KL120/130 loaders seemed to be redesigned rather quickly with the solid torque tube reinforced through the arms. This 'torque tube modification' appears to me, more like an afterthought. IMO, This is a classic case of the tail(Taesung) waggin' the dog(Kioti/Daedong). Then expecting the end consumer to accept without question.

I certainly can understand 4shorts intrepidation with Kioti. Been there, done that, don't wish to do it again, type of thing.

I sense an in-flexible arrogance from KiotiUSA(not from our TBN active dealers) about this whole KL120/130 debacle. I don't know if it's a cultural difference or what? Certainly this is the largest hiccup from KiotiUSA/Daedong that I have witnessed first hand.

Don

 

[Gittyup]

I have been reading about the loader issue and for one think it is blown a little out of wack. If anyone thinks that another tractor company would have handled it better I woul like to meet that company. I worked for the "green" company for quite a while and they are notorious for these KITS and there is nothing wrong with using them. The bolt on items seem to me to be a logical solution for the company and customer. To say the loader arms and other parts should be replaced is crazy! I seen much much worse out of other big tractor comanies that end up being "patched" together. EVERY tractor company is going to try and fix the problem with the least expense and greatest success of repair no matter who they are.

Hmm.... JD has a history of come cracked loaders? I'd like to hear more about that. Did they take 30 months to put their kits out? Did they make the users bear the expense of transport to and from the dealers to get them fixed? Even if so, JD and the other "big" guys can more readily afford to treat their customers so. They aren't trying to gain a good foot hold in the U.S. market like Kioti is.

I still say the cost of the arms couldn't be that much more than the lousy kit, especially when one considers the costs are not just for the parts themselves, but also include the costs to design the kits, order the newly designed parts, stock them, distribute them, write installation instructions, etc. etc. Then there is the good will and quality reputation (or lack thereof).

Kioti is a good tractor. It's ashame. I wouldn't say that I wouldn't buy another Kioti, assuming I can get a descent price for the one I own now.

 

[Tractech]

Ok read my post again. I did not say loader kits! I just stated they are famous for these kind of kits! They are what they like to call PIP kits. Yes the involve drilling and bolting on add on items sometimes. They are really good at letting the the dealer try to fix their problems. Many times there is no correction for an issue. We had a cretain kind of off road vehicle that was green and it had a major flaw and nearly cost my brother his life. My dad called the main ## and they told him not to worry about it that there was not any problems with the machine. Bottom line it went up in flames and they did nothing! I was even working for them at the time and still couldn't get any answers. My point is that all these companies have the "fix it kits" in some form and yes even the kubotas. It does not mean they are a bad machine and I have seen "fix it kits" take up to 4 years before it actually comes out. Kioti may not have met everyones ideal time line but at least they did recognize their problem and are providing a fix for it.

 

[Gittyup]

Ok read my post again. I did not say loader kits! I just stated they are famous for these kind of kits! They are what they like to call PIP kits. Yes the involve drilling and bolting on add on items sometimes. They are really good at letting the the dealer try to fix their problems. Many times there is no correction for an issue. We had a cretain kind of off road vehicle that was green and it had a major flaw and nearly cost my brother his life. My dad called the main ## and they told him not to worry about it that there was not any problems with the machine. Bottom line it went up in flames and they did nothing! I was even working for them at the time and still couldn't get any answers. My point is that all these companies have the "fix it kits" in some form and yes even the kubotas. It does not mean they are a bad machine and I have seen "fix it kits" take up to 4 years before it actually comes out. Kioti may not have met everyones ideal time line but at least they did recognize their problem and are providing a fix for it.

I understand your post perfectly. I guess it's my sarcasm that isn't clear. All "kits" and "kit repairs" are not the same. Sure, in many many situations a kit is a perfectly good solution. This is just not one of them, at least not for this owner.

 

[Dodgeram]

Sure, in many many situations a kit is a perfectly good solution. This is just not one of them, at least not for this owner.

Out of curiosity, has anyone with a kit installed actually pulled the thing off to see if the cracks have progressed?
I'll reserve judgement on the "fix' until I see some field results.
Tom

 

[TBDonnelly]

Kioti has put a time limit of January 2009 for the dealer installed "torque tube modification" kit. Since December and January are snow months I don't forsee travel in those months. So, there is really not much time for evaluation purposes of this latest 'torque tube modification' kit. Due to time constraints, travel and costs incurred this is a one time decision for me. So.....for me, it has to be the right, one time, long term decision.

Don

 

[IXLR8]

Out of curiosity, has anyone with a kit installed actually pulled the thing off to see if the cracks have progressed?
I'll reserve judgement on the "fix' until I see some field results.
Tom

There was a 'fix kit' on mine when I bought it in Dec 07, there are too many bolts on it for me to take it off 'just to have a look'. There are some clamping bolts that I was lead to believe were tightened to specific torque, I have no idea what that setting is so I am not about to undo it without that information. I also have no idea if it was actually cracked before the kit was put on. The dealer I bought the tractor from stated that he put the kit on all the KL130's that came through his shop, cracked or not, IF the kit he had fit the loader. He claims he doesn't remember if mine was cracked or not.

 

[IXLR8]

Some folks asked for pictures of the 'fix'. I don't know what the latest 'fix' is, but here are a few pictures of what is on my CK30. As best I can figure out, it was put on Oct '07. Sorry the pics aren't better, if you want more detail, let me know and I will see what I can get.

 

[Gittyup]

Jim,

Thanks for the photos. I don't know what to make of that thing. What do you think of it; is it stiff from side to side? Looks like it attaches directly to the crosstube with just 4 bolts? Still it probably does strengthen the crosstube a good bit. Looks pretty heavy.

 

[IXLR8]

There are two pieces, they go around the torque tube and those two pieces are bolted together with 16 bolts. The 4 bolts on the bottom side are clamping bolts that press against the torque tube. I read somewhere that those 4 bolts are to be tightened to a certain spec, but I have not been able to find out what that spec it. I have no idea how much it helps, if any. It has been on my loader since I got it and I am too lazy to take it off and see what is underneath. There still seems to be a fair amount of flex between the loader arms, but I have no idea what the flex would be like if it was not there.

 

[TBDonnelly]

Compare the "torque tube modification" next to a redesigned KL130'P' loader. The "torque tube modification" uses four bolts pressing against (in many cases) an already compromised torque tube. The redesigned loader uses a solid tube which passes through the sides of the loader arms, an additional plate is mounted on the outside of the loader arms and then it is completely welded. Which system will eliminate flexing between the loader arms? Four bolts is not doing it for me. If this "modification" kit was used in a static application that did not constantly move and flex it may have possibilities. It's a very nice, heavy kosmetic kover-up.
Don

 

[IslandTractor]

I'm not an engineer but it still seems possible to me that the "clamp" fix is more than kosmetic. By stiffening the existing torque "tube" cross piece it will prevent it from twisting and it is the twisting motion that caused the corner cracks. If the torque tube was breaking loose from the loader arms that would be different but the cracks have not been at those critical locations but rather in the weak area surrounding the cut out. If the whole structure is stiffened by the clamp on fix then there should be less twisting and therefore less stress on the existing cracks so they would be less likely to spread. Right?