Your last generator Maintenance Run

[3930dave]

My Honda 2000 does double duty...

If the power goes out for a short period of time, it can be used to power a few smaller things, but it does get used a lot more "all during the year", for many other things too. Like today, I'm going to use it to power a batt charger/starter that I have. If I have a tractor that's sat a long time, I always throw a charge in the batt for a few minutes before I start it. It exercises the gen set a little, and takes some of the load off the tractors alternator/starter...

To properly exercise your gen set, you should put at least a 50% load on it for 30 minutes...

SR

With you there SR. While I have several battery chargers, one of my favourites is still my olde school 6 amp charger that has a big analog current meter on the front. For activity like you describe, I can tell right away how drawn down the battery is, and adjust my charging time allowance accordingly, esp. in the dead of Winter.

While I do like solar PV panels for many things, a generator is a good solution for equipment that sits idle at a remote location. Small generators are easy to afford and transport..... if you are going to spend the time traveling to a remote location, are you certain that your solar PV charger is still working ? Or perhaps the panels have been stolen or vandalized ?

Even a 1000 watt generator has plenty of oomph for charging 12v batteries.

Rgds, D.

 

[wrooster]

One thing you should work on is straightening out the PTO driveline.
Ideally the tractor PTO output and the generator PTO input should be in line with each other.

The gearset on the input of the generator head (which up-converts the 540 RPM PTO to either 1800 RPM [4 pole head] or 3600 RPM [2 pole head]) magnifies any rotational velocity variation due to PTO drive angle.

See for example

wrooster

 

[ultrarunner]

Excellent Video Link

 

[grsthegreat]

not much to do with generator maint, but the weird weather has caused an increase in people hiring me to install generators. i just got 6 units in yesterday, including a new 22 KW quietsource liquid cooled unit. This is the first 1800 RPM quietsource unit ive had to install, and looking forward to hearing it run.

Ive heard the 36 KW quietsource operate and it was amazingly quiet.

I want to replace my current unit with this exact similar unit next year. I do like the fact its an automotive style engine and liquid cooled. plus 1/2 the RPM.

heres a few pics.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

One thing you should work on is straightening out the PTO driveline.
Ideally the tractor PTO output and the generator PTO input should be in line with each other.
wrooster

Agreed, but that day I was only pulling about 2000 watts out of it and not for very long, so I wasn't too worried about the pto alinement...

SR

 

[ultrarunner]

I look to you for my real life in field generator reviews...

Always prefered 1800 rpm units which just about disappeared here in California... many of the best units I was sourcing a few years back could not be sold or serviced in California...

Very interested to get your perspective after it is up and running... quiet is becoming very important in residential zoned areas.

 

[grsthegreat]

I look to you for my real life in field generator reviews...

Always prefered 1800 rpm units which just about disappeared here in California... many of the best units I was sourcing a few years back could not be sold or serviced in California...

Very interested to get your perspective after it is up and running... quiet is becoming very important in residential zoned areas.

calif is a hard market. Generac does offer CA/MA approved units. the quietsource units qualify. Some also come with Catalyst and SCAQMD rated.

Luckily here in Idaho...we dont have to worry.

I also like that the liquid cooled units have hydraulic lifters.

Generac has been upgrading their liquid cooled units from the older nexus controllers (which have operated very nicely i might say) to the more current Evolution controller. The evolution controller has been used in air cooled units for several years, and is nearly bulletproof as far as service reports go.

The new controllers allow more service tech adjustments and also allow for firmware updates.

Im waiting till the 22KW units are upgraded to evolution controllers, then im switching my house unit. Ill take my current house unit and move it to control the shop which currently is operated with small manual gen system.

Im a service rep for generac, and i dont get called out to any of the newer units (after 2010). except for occasional valve adjustment and annual maint request. The older units (prior to 2010) have had some issues, but most of the problems i find are due to non existent owner maint. I got called out awhile back on 2 whole house units at a Bed & Breakfast outside of town. power to units were out due to heavy storm damage to powerlines. They were upset cause neither generator fired up. I opened up both units...and batteries had exploded in both units. both units also showed no oil on dipstick. I was able to manually rotate engines so they wernt frozen. i did total service on both of them. These units hold 1.8 qts of oil. i got maybe a cup of oil out of each. this was after using compressed air to empty unit. Replaced everything, set valves, replaced batteries...they fired right up.

Units were 5 years old...and never looked at by anyone. Owner couldnt even find the keys. these kinds of people shouldnt even be allowed to own anything with an engine. i can imagine what their cars look like.

And there probably also the kind of people that post a blog about how crappy their generators are hehe

 

[ultrarunner]

^^^

Like one of my tenants in subsidized housing... she bought a brand new Toyota 16 valve when I was managing the property where she lived.

She was always on the road...

One day... she asks me to look at her car because this red light started coming on and off and now is on... it was for oil...

I checked the dipstick and asked when was the last time she checked... NEVER.

So I asked when was the last oil change... NEVER.

So here is a two year old Toyota with 30,000 miles that has never had an oil change or oil added...

After adding some oil.. the engine just didn't sound right... in short order... she told Toyota Credit to come pick up the car because she was not going to pay 3 more years on a car with problems...

Can only imagine the mess Toyota had to deal with...

 

[grsthegreat]

^^^

Like one of my tenants in subsidized housing... she bought a brand new Toyota 16 valve when I was managing the property where she lived.

She was always on the road...

One day... she asks me to look at her car because this red light started coming on and off and now is on... it was for oil...

I checked the dipstick and asked when was the last time she checked... NEVER.

So I asked when was the last oil change... NEVER.

So here is a two year old Toyota with 30,000 miles that has never had an oil change or oil added...

After adding some oil.. the engine just didn't sound right... in short order... she told Toyota Credit to come pick up the car because she was not going to pay 3 more years on a car with problems...

Can only imagine the mess Toyota had to deal with...

im surprised toyota even took it back. On my dodge and chevy, i had to keep receipts proving oil changes as part of warranty. They didnt have to be from shops. Receipts showing oil and filter purchases was enough.

I miss the days when i had only leased rigs that included free scheduled maint from ford. I got new rigs every 2 years. Those were the days.

Now days i put on so many miles per year i could never afford a lease

 

[ultrarunner]

im surprised toyota even took it back. On my dodge and chevy, i had to keep receipts proving oil changes as part of warranty. They didnt have to be from shops. Receipts showing oil and filter purchases was enough.

I miss the days when i had only leased rigs that included free scheduled maint from ford. I got new rigs every 2 years. Those were the days.

Now days i put on so many miles per year i could never afford a lease

It was not that Toyota took it back... she stopped paying for it and they came to repossess it!

Her excuse was she was not going to keep making monthly payments on a defective car...

Things like this is why I would never want to warranty anything...especially for years at a time.

She had a brand new lease car the next week... guess it was just before her credit was shot...

I still have the first generator I installed for a medical clinic back in the 1970's... when they moved they asked me about relocating it... my suspicions were correct... the unit was too small for their new digs...

It's a single cylinder WINCO with auto transfer powered by Natural Gas... was not a quiet unit... but proved very reliable the 8 years it was in use...

 

[kevinwak]

not much to do with generator maint, but the weird weather has caused an increase in people hiring me to install generators. i just got 6 units in yesterday, including a new 22 KW quietsource liquid cooled unit. This is the first 1800 RPM quietsource unit ive had to install, and looking forward to hearing it run. Ive heard the 36 KW quietsource operate and it was amazingly quiet. I want to replace my current unit with this exact similar unit next year. I do like the fact its an automotive style engine and liquid cooled. plus 1/2 the RPM. heres a few pics. <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/oil-fuel-lubricants/428131-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-1-jpg"/> <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/oil-fuel-lubricants/428132-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-2-jpg"/> <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/oil-fuel-lubricants/428133-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-3-jpg"/> <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/oil-fuel-lubricants/428134-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-4-jpg"/> <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/oil-fuel-lubricants/428135-your-last-generator-maintenance-run-5-jpg"/>

I would love for you to install One of those quiet source units for me...... Trouble for me is that storms and power outages are so rare I couldn't justify the cost. Sent from my iPhone using TractorByNet

 

[3930dave]

calif is a hard market. Generac does offer CA/MA approved units. the quietsource units qualify. Some also come with Catalyst and SCAQMD rated.

Luckily here in Idaho...we dont have to worry.

I also like that the liquid cooled units have hydraulic lifters.

Generac has been upgrading their liquid cooled units from the older nexus controllers (which have operated very nicely i might say) to the more current Evolution controller. The evolution controller has been used in air cooled units for several years, and is nearly bulletproof as far as service reports go.

The new controllers allow more service tech adjustments and also allow for firmware updates.

Im waiting till the 22KW units are upgraded to evolution controllers, then im switching my house unit. Ill take my current house unit and move it to control the shop which currently is operated with small manual gen system.

Im a service rep for generac, and i dont get called out to any of the newer units (after 2010). except for occasional valve adjustment and annual maint request. The older units (prior to 2010) have had some issues, but most of the problems i find are due to non existent owner maint. I got called out awhile back on 2 whole house units at a Bed & Breakfast outside of town. power to units were out due to heavy storm damage to powerlines. They were upset cause neither generator fired up. I opened up both units...and batteries had exploded in both units. both units also showed no oil on dipstick. I was able to manually rotate engines so they wernt frozen. i did total service on both of them. These units hold 1.8 qts of oil. i got maybe a cup of oil out of each. this was after using compressed air to empty unit. Replaced everything, set valves, replaced batteries...they fired right up.

Units were 5 years old...and never looked at by anyone. Owner couldnt even find the keys. these kinds of people shouldnt even be allowed to own anything with an engine. i can imagine what their cars look like.

And there probably also the kind of people that post a blog about how crappy their generators are hehe

I've heard an older 12kw Generac running, even that one was reasonably quiet with the lid closed. Please post your impressions of the newer series as these installations move ahead - they are getting impressively quieter.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

It was not that Toyota took it back... she stopped paying for it and they came to repossess it!

Her excuse was she was not going to keep making monthly payments on a defective car...

Things like this is why I would never want to warranty anything...especially for years at a time.

She had a brand new lease car the next week... guess it was just before her credit was shot...

I still have the first generator I installed for a medical clinic back in the 1970's... when they moved they asked me about relocating it... my suspicions were correct... the unit was too small for their new digs...

It's a single cylinder WINCO with auto transfer powered by Natural Gas... was not a quiet unit... but proved very reliable the 8 years it was in use...

Too many consumers today equate Low Maintenance with No Maintenance. Keeping factories running is the upside to this delusion.

Rgds, D

 

[3930dave]

I would love for you to install One of those quiet source units for me...... Trouble for me is that storms and power outages are so rare I couldn't justify the cost. Sent from my iPhone using TractorByNet

While I don't consider the price of these units to be pocket change, utility rates are getting to be a factor in some areas....

Been meaning to check in with a retired EE buddy of mine..... I won't be surprised if the operating cost on Natgas for his Generac is lower than the Daytime TOU electricity rates here....

Rgds, D.

 

[buickanddeere]

To clip daytime electrical peak in the spring summer and fall. A band of solar panels and a grid tie inverter will do the same without having to pay fuel bills.
Of course during the worst 3-4 months of winter here the panels produce no worthwhile output.
If you think that electricity is expensive now. Just wait until the horsefaced lessy from Toronto who also decided to tick off farmers by also being the minister of agriculture. She is going to carry on and now mine the assets out of Hydro One. To be fair another political party did start ruining Ontario Hydro in the mid 1990's.

 

[wrooster]

Always prefered 1800 rpm units which just about disappeared here in California... many of the best units I was sourcing a few years back could not be sold or serviced in California...
Very interested to get your perspective after it is up and running... quiet is becoming very important in residential zoned areas.

The issue is that for a given power generator output you need about twice the engine displacement when running at 1800RPM versus 3600RPM. Small engines running at 1800RPM simply do not make a lot of power/torque. And the net result of needing twice the displacement is a lot of cost of mechanical bits tied up for a very infrequently used piece of machinery.

For prime power? Sure, the 1800RPM engine wins in greater longevity, reduced noise, reduced fuel consumption, etc, and the extra cost for the larger engine is worth it. But for backup/standby power? The smaller displacement 3600RPM engine wins for cost. And for most residential customers, cost is all that matters.

Two solutions to the noise issue associated with 3600RPM engines exist:
1) Better engineered enclosures.
2) Indirect-coupled inverter approach, and thus variable throttle speed. (Result: Engine runs slower when power demand is low)

Current inverter technology is not well suited for high power applications (e.g. above 8KW or so), and therefore the two-stage indirect-coupled inverter approach gets unwieldy and expensive. Manufacturers of generators therefore continue to try to engineer quieter enclosures but robust enclosure implementations actually cost quite a bit of money. So, at a given price point, it becomes a tradeoff; for example, do you want full pressure lubrication or a quieter generator?

wrooster

 

[wrooster]

While I don't consider the price of these units to be pocket change, utility rates are getting to be a factor in some areas.... Been meaning to check in with a retired EE buddy of mine..... I won't be surprised if the operating cost on Natgas for his Generac is lower than the Daytime TOU electricity rates here....

Rgds, D.

You have to sum CAPEX (including depreciation and replacement cost) + OPEX (including fuel, service, and preventative maintenance); there is no way in the long run it will be cheaper than utility power -- unless your utility power is being sold to you by Tony Soprano's "guys".

wrooster

 

[dragoneggs]

The issue is that for a given power generator output you need about twice the engine displacement when running at 1800RPM versus 3600RPM. Small engines running at 1800RPM simply do not make a lot of power/torque. And the net result of needing twice the displacement is a lot of cost of mechanical bits tied up for a very infrequently used piece of machinery. For prime power? Sure, the 1800RPM engine wins in greater longevity, reduced noise, reduced fuel consumption, etc, and the extra cost for the larger engine is worth it. But for backup/standby power? The smaller displacement 3600RPM engine wins for cost. And for most residential customers, cost is all that matters. Two solutions to the noise issue associated with 3600RPM engines exist: 1) Better engineered enclosures. 2) Indirect-coupled inverter approach, and thus variable throttle speed. (Result: Engine runs slower when power demand is low) Current inverter technology is not well suited for high power applications (e.g. above 8KW or so), and therefore the two-stage indirect-coupled inverter approach gets unwieldy and expensive. Manufacturers of generators therefore continue to try to engineer quieter enclosures but robust enclosure implementations actually cost quite a bit of money. So, at a given price point, it becomes a tradeoff; for example, do you want full pressure lubrication or a quieter generator? wrooster

Great explanation Wrooster. Thanks.

 

[ultrarunner]

The issue is that for a given power generator output you need about twice the engine displacement when running at 1800RPM versus 3600RPM. Small engines running at 1800RPM simply do not make a lot of power/torque. And the net result of needing twice the displacement is a lot of cost of mechanical bits tied up for a very infrequently used piece of machinery.

For prime power? Sure, the 1800RPM engine wins in greater longevity, reduced noise, reduced fuel consumption, etc, and the extra cost for the larger engine is worth it. But for backup/standby power? The smaller displacement 3600RPM engine wins for cost. And for most residential customers, cost is all that matters.

Two solutions to the noise issue associated with 3600RPM engines exist:
1) Better engineered enclosures.
2) Indirect-coupled inverter approach, and thus variable throttle speed. (Result: Engine runs slower when power demand is low)

Current inverter technology is not well suited for high power applications (e.g. above 8KW or so), and therefore the two-stage indirect-coupled inverter approach gets unwieldy and expensive. Manufacturers of generators therefore continue to try to engineer quieter enclosures but robust enclosure implementations actually cost quite a bit of money. So, at a given price point, it becomes a tradeoff; for example, do you want full pressure lubrication or a quieter generator?

wrooster

My smallest unit is a Honda 1000 and the biggest are Onan/Cummins 150 kW backup rated or 125 kW prime rated.

Onan had a very reliable line or 1800 rpm units that were very popular until they could no longer by sold in California.

I also really like the Multiquip Kubota powered units... super quiet and very fuel efficient...

I agree... cost/value is always the trade...

 

[3930dave]

To clip daytime electrical peak in the spring summer and fall. A band of solar panels and a grid tie inverter will do the same without having to pay fuel bills.
Of course during the worst 3-4 months of winter here the panels produce no worthwhile output.
If you think that electricity is expensive now. Just wait until the horsefaced lessy from Toronto who also decided to tick off farmers by also being the minister of agriculture. She is going to carry on and now mine the assets out of Hydro One. To be fair another political party did start ruining Ontario Hydro in the mid 1990's.

I expect to see more and more residential solar PV installed here. Overcast days are a problem, but they actually do fairly well otherwise in Winter - cells are more efficient at lower temperatures, and if you have the space for ground-mount, on a sunny day you can get some light gain off of snow cover.

Rgds, D.