YM336D - Started knocking loud while tilling

[tcartwri]

knocks don't go away with additives.... just saying.

Looking at that oil pickup, you most assuredly have spun a rod bearing. A visual inspection is not going to reveal this, nor is a wiggle test most of the time. It could also be a wrist pin flopping around.

 

[Car Doc]

Very true!

I think what we are talking about is the cleaning ability's it will work good for a pre-clean just before and oil change although the instructions say 1/3 can in the oil is fine for extended periods thats how I use it. 1/3 oil, 1/3 fuel and 1/3 sucked thru the intake fwtw.

 

[clemsonfor]

I already have an oil gauge in the dash. It read 50PSI when I started it up on the day this all happened, but when the knocking began it read 10PSI. I'm not sure when it dropped, as I removed the idiot lights. The new gauge doesn't have an idiot light and I hadn't looked at it since starting it up.

I'm off to town to get the oil and filter now. I already have some seafoam, but seeing as I have the pan off, I'll hold onto it until next oil change. Wish me luck!

MAybe because you were low on oil the lesser volume there was stiffing up the crud more as the increased flow of oil that was required as there was less than there should be in the oil pan. What im trying to say is the oil left had to circulate more often maybe moving that crud and causing it to stick to the screen and then still starving the system as if it was low on oil.

 

[clemsonfor]

knocks don't go away with additives.... just saying.

Looking at that oil pickup, you most assuredly have spun a rod bearing. A visual inspection is not going to reveal this, nor is a wiggle test most of the time. It could also be a wrist pin flopping around.

No one said the Seafoam will cure the Knock. It was suggested prior to an oil change to help clean the crud from inside the engine, thus increasing the oil flow and just cleaning the internals. It was recommended to get it warm then dump the oil refilling it WITHOUT seafoam, so there would be no additive in it then.

Also he has pulled the rod bearings and the mains, none were spun.

 

[Smoody]

No one said the Seafoam will cure the Knock. It was suggested prior to an oil change to help clean the crud from inside the engine, thus increasing the oil flow and just cleaning the internals.

Correct, I was not implying it would cure knocking, sorry if I was unclear.

Car Doc, I have never used it in the intake, never thought to. Will give that a try, thanks!

 

[Domush]

MAybe because you were low on oil the lesser volume there was stiffing up the crud more as the increased flow of oil that was required as there was less than there should be in the oil pan. What im trying to say is the oil left had to circulate more often maybe moving that crud and causing it to stick to the screen and then still starving the system as if it was low on oil.

I like that theory. That makes a lot of sense. It's hard to believe that itty bitty clean spot on the pickup filter circulated enough oil to ever make 50PSI, which only makes your theory more likely. I'd love for that to be the case. We'll find out tomorrow. I have the whole day clear to work on it.

Looking at that oil pickup, you most assuredly have spun a rod bearing

tcartwri, you must have missed it, but I mentioned I have already removed the bearing caps and the bearings are in perfect shape.

I meant to buy some plastigauge today in order to verify the tolerance, but forgot . I think I'll skip that step for now. If I need to come back to it, I will.

 

[gengine]

Man, this whole situation is rough, I wish you the best of luck!

 

[clemsonfor]

Correct, I was not implying it would cure knocking, sorry if I was unclear.

Car Doc, I have never used it in the intake, never thought to. Will give that a try, thanks!

I wasent talking to you i was talking to the Tcart guy. I love seafoam, it really does clean up stuff. I can honestly said i have not had any miricle cures but have had good cleaning out with it.

Take a vacume line loose with it and run it into it so that if feeds the intake. Do it for say 15 seconds then stall it with to much and let it sit. Then start the car engine up and it will smoke down like crazy all the junk that its dissolves. You can do the same with an outboard. Put it in a spray bottle or pay the extra for half the amount of the "deep creep" version which is the same stuff in an arosol can, and spray into the boat carb throats while running then stall it out on it. Pull plugs and squirt some in each hole. I then manually rotate the motor to work it into the pistons, walls and rings. Let sit for 5 mins then crank boat up and run on a portable tank with 1 gallon of fuel and a can of seafoam. It will smoke like a pile of leaves, take it on the water and run the snot out of it. Will clean it up good. Suggest a new set of plugs after this!!!

 

[Car Doc]

:thumbsup: What clemson said yup that covered it very well!

I am pretty sure (95%) it will run ok once shes back together if there was no black rod caps and no damage to a rod bearing, the mains and pins should be ok, rods go first in a low oil situation, fact the knock was most likely lack of oil on the skirts.

 

[tcartwri]

tcartwri, you must have missed it, but I mentioned I have already removed the bearing caps and the bearings are in perfect shape.

Did you look at the upper bearing shell that's under thrust too... Or just the lower half?

 

[Domush]

Okay, she is back together. Only the second time I've gotten to use my new torque wrench, so that was nice. It started pouring rain once I finished up putting the drive shaft back on.

Did you look at the upper bearing shell that's under thrust too... Or just the lower half?

I only checked out the lower bearings. I figure if there was any damage to the top ones it would bleed over and leave traces on the crankshaft as well. Too late, now, anyhow

I cleaned the oil pan, lubed the bearings before assembling them, cleaned the pickup screen (man was that caked on) and replaced the oil and filter. I haven't cut open the old filter yet, but it sure is heavy, even after draining it. I can only imagine how much of that gunk got caked into the oil filter as well.

PS: If you haven't bought oil lately.. don't! What an absurd price! $4/qt now! It cost me $25 just in materials to give my truck an oil change! Unbelievable.

Once the rain lets up I'll head back out and give it a crank. It barely started the other day, so hopefully it has enough juice to at least start up a few more times.

 

[Car Doc]

Yeah oil prices that is a sore subject alright!

Now days a guy would need to cash in an IRA to buy a 55 gal drum. I used to buy and keep 4 on hand at a time (engine oil, ATF, anti-freeze,90wt) but those are just memory's now.

 

[Domush]

Well, I started it up and it still knocks really loud, though the oil pressure is nearly 60PSI, now. Obviously the oil passageways were horribly clogged. Now I have to pull the pistons to check out the rings and sleeves, as I think that is where the knock is originating from (by ear). I also notice there is now smoke coming out of the crankcase breather tube which never happened before.

I started removing stuff to remove the head, but I can't get the head bolts to budge at all (any of them ), and to boot it is one of those days where the weather can't make up its mind. I'm doing this all outside, as the tractor doesn't fit in the garage (too tall with the canopy) and I don't have power in there yet, anyhow.

I was afraid fixing the oil was too easy a fix. My luck isn't that good.

Any tips on getting the head bolts to loosen? I tried PB blaster, but they are painted twice over, so they are pretty penetrant proof at this point. I don't own a 1/2" breaker bar. Would using a breaker bar be safe or am I risking breaking off a bolt? I really don't want to have to buy a new impact gun for 6 bolts.

 

[Car Doc]

Man that sucks I am almost sure the knock is not the rings and pistons or the crank (least from the clues you gave so far) the smoke from the crankcase is a clue I think.

How are the valve guides and all that rocker train? Grab a valve spring and wiggle the valve a real bad guide will blow by also a cylinder with valves not opening will too, the combustion has to go somewhere, busted piston or busted rings will also blow by and knock however. (I just dont see it in this case though fwtw)

I would check some of this stuff before tearing the rest of the way down and btw those bolts are really tight it will take a long bar and a hammer on the end of the bolt possibly. Go one way and then the other try tightening them a bit first sometimes works also and go back and forth quite a few times before giving it all.

I use an air hammer and try not to beat it to the point a socket wont fit thats a trick not a for sure thing fwtw.

edit: Sounds like its too late to try this but I always like to find clues before I tear into things (just because) my suggestion would be if it still ran start cracking injectors and see what that shows.

 

[tcartwri]

As was mentioned, a bad injector will make the engine knock like a bstd.

 

[Domush]

Well, I took the head off anyway, as I'm quite sure the #2 rings are shot anyhow, as it smokes up a storm when running, so if I'm digging this deep, I might as well fix it fully.

I didn't find any unique valve wiggle (they all wiggle roughly .5mm side to side).

Something to note, a while back I turned the crank by hand in order to test the compression of each cyl and #3 had awesome compression, #2 had very little and #1 had an average amount. It was obvious from that #2 was the cyl causing the massive smoke, although #1 may have been contributing a little. You'll notice in the photos that #2 def has an issue of some sort.

I didn't notice any issues where something was escaping to a different passageway. All seals looked unbroken, but I'm hardly an expert at this.

#3

#2

#1

#2 close up

#3 close up

#2 and #1

#3 and #2

#3

#2

#1

So.. what do you think? #2 is odd in that it has black until about 1/2 down the cyl where the other two have a clear transition about 1/2" down from the top.

If anyone wants to see hi-res versions of these, you can go straight to my picasa account (they are 5MP photos)

 

[tcartwri]

That engine sat somewhere for a while. #2 is done like dinner. Amazed that the rings are still in the piston.

 

[Johnp33]

To clean out an engine, and I did it for a living use ATF dexron 3, you can overfill it and even work it with it in there, 10 minutes to 1/2 hour, I use about 20% ATF, it really works and it is cheap and something that has other uses.
The engine you have, a complete overhaul or replacement in your future.

 

[Car Doc]

Well that motor needed torn down thats the bottom line. I cant see it real good but the head gasket fire ring around the middle cyl looks awful black that means its not sealing and may be what washed the piston down but at this point its over and done rebuild time. Its not the first or last dead horse I will ever kick in the ***.

 

[90cummins]

Hard to imagine how a person or persons could damage & break so many parts of this tractor.
It certainly was severely beaten & neglected.

You sure have your work cut-out for you!

90 cummins