Yet Another Box Blade Question

[RAllen]

I guess its time to jump in.

Glen:
I have used a boxblade in the red clay of North Georgia- granite rocks and in NW Montana were I now live. My property here is basically on large rock pile. Glacier Morrain. Rocks from the size of your thumb upwards to VW size are buried in the soil.

Techniques are slightly different here than in Georgia clay but the boxblade is an invaluable implement in both environments. I do have top link tilt control and it makes all the difference in the world.

If you have grading projects, want to cut fire breaks, tractor trails, rip up the ground or move dirt short distances, the boxblade is the best generic tool for the money.

Rick /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[glennmac]

Rick,

Does that mean you don't agree with my igneous hypothesis? Darn.

These boxblade threads keep coming up for the obvious reason that people have trouble using them. There are two aspects to this. The first issue relates to proper boxblade operation. We have gotten good info on that issue in this thread. The second issue is what kind of jobs is a boxblade good for.

Ok, if I practice enough, and especially if I have a hydraulic toplink, I can control and use the thing. But it's that second issue that has always puzzled me more: I cant figure out what I would do with a boxblade that I cant do just as well or better with another implement.

I dont know what a firebreak is, so pardon me if I ignore that. Here are the specific things I think about.

1. If if I want to bust up ground, why cant I do that with a
FEL toothbar or tiller, or both, or even a cheap plow. Is a box scarifier better in some way. I dont own a toothbar or tiller, but I bet I can get them cheaper than a good box (to me, that means a heavy one with a scarifier lever bar) plus hydraulic t&t.

2. If I want to move a pile of dirt or gravel or rocks from A to B, why dont I just use my loader. If I try to move the pile with a box, my understanding is that I will be digging and/or spreading as I go from A to B (depending on my competence) and I probably wont have the same load when I arrive at B as I started with at A. If I really want to move a lot, I should probably get a soil mover, which is what I think the picture is that John Miller posted.

3. If I want to smooth and grade dirt, why cant I cant I just backdrag my bucket. Why right on this very thread, Bird, who has been advocating boxes as far back as you can find his posts, has admitted that until he got t&t he could smooth better with his bucket than with the box. If I want to do a better job than my bucket, why cant I use a backblade or rake. That's what all the professional landscapers in these parts use. I bet I can get a backblade, along with the toothbar and tiller, for about the same as a fancy box with t&t. And, then, I have three tools that can do a lot more than the box for other things.

I started the thread called "Boxblade Usefullness Survey" last fall, which is the one in which several New Englanders reported that boxes were sparse here. I am not exaggerating when I say: I have never seen a box on anyone's tractor here in CT, I have never seen one used by a landscaper or by contractors at dirt construction sites, and, with one exception, I have never seen one at a tractor dealer. I'm not saying they are not here at all, but that they are apparently so little used that its rare to sight them. When I ask the two oldest tractor dealers in the area (52 and 62 years in business) why they dont sell boxblades, the answer is the same: too much of a pain in the neck to use in our soil and not as good as other tools for the job. Therefore, no demand for them.

So, maybe someone could explain to me and others who are puzzling over the the usefulness issue--as opposed to the technique issue--why we should invest money in this difficult to use tool as opposed to some other tool, or combination of other tools, that may do the job even better.

 

[RAllen]

Glen
I waste more time on this forum. But darnit aint it fun?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Thats interesting about New England but then those Yankees....there you go again Rick.....

Seriously I would think New England soil would be very similiar to what I have here- glacial deposits. There are alot of small rocks suspended in the soil and are quite rough on a tiller. Back in Georgia, hard clay just laughs at most tillers- you have to bust it up with scarifiers or a plow first. I suspect its the same in other areas with hard pan soils.

My first implement last spring was a rock rake with gauge wheels and a drop down blade. Its great for light snow and grading my drive- pulling up rocks. But it will not bite- too light. To really smooth the road I:

[1] Use rock rake to move the gravel to the shoulder
[2] Use box blade ripper teeth to break up the base
[3] Use box blade to smooth out ruts, dips etc. Yes it takes practice but trial and error using TNT makes it fairly easy
[4] Final grade/ smooth with rock rake, putting the gravel back on the surface.

A firebreak is a strip of bare earth keeps trash fires/ slash pile fires from spreading. Its another term for fire line. The boxblade would be THE Tool for fire fighting on my heavily forested land, not considering an unlimited supply of water and high pressure pump and hose.

I have detachable teeth on my bucket and occasionally use the back drag method to break up hard soil. If you have the space to use a box blade, however, there is no comparison to the ease, speed and accuracy. Bucket Teeth are only 1/4 the length of boxblade ripper teeth so you break up much more soil with the boxblade.

I just finished leveling a small clearing about 200x100 feet on the side of a hill. The down hill side is now 4 feet higher than original grade. It had been rough cleared by a track loader during logging operations but was so rough, I could not drive the tractor over it safely. I dug into the uphill side with the loader, got a scoop then turned around and used the boxblade to move additional- and a much bigger amount than in my bucket [2910 with 60" bucket]- soil. The boxblade allows you to spread it out which the bucket does not. Of course a soil mover- called a pan in the south would be much better and would work over longer moves but as I mentioned the boxblade does more things well than any other single attachment. I am proud of the smoothness of this area now. Mowed it for the first time and its much more smooth than my other pasture areas.

Sorry to be so long winded but I seem to remember that all of us boxers are starting to get to your brain and you are thinking about getting one. I think you will be a convert by next year if you do.

Look at it this way. A boxblade it like a fine musical instrument. You spend a lifetime honing your skills but you probably never fully master it. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Rick

 

[glennmac]

Rick,

Having just read that you own Freedom Hitches, your credibility as a tool invester has gone even higher.

At the risk of going off topic--and this is an important topic--I would like to ask where you got the toothbar for your 2910, how much, and which Landpride rake did you get?

 

[DVerbarg]

Glenn,

I would agree that overall a front loader is more useful than a typical box (have both). Do not have T&T but wish I did. I like the box for one basic function: working with hard soil over a wide area. Teeth on a bucket are great but not nearly as good as scarifier teeth for busting up soil. The teeth on a box are curved to pull themselves into the dirt. The FEL teeth have to be forced into the ground, much slower process and more frustrating. After using the teeth to rip I will sometimes use the FEL to move the dirt and other times the box.

Now if we are talking about moving a pile of dirt it is much faster to use the FEL. If I am spreading loose dirt it is also much faster for me to use the FEL. Use the back of the bucket for "moving" material and the front edge of the bucket for feathering or tapering. I have used the box to distribute loose gravel on the driveway to a uniform depth. Tilted the box forward so that the front blade was held up about an inch (held up by the side walls) then drug the box through the gravel and the blade dropped the gravel at that uniform depth.

DaveV

 

[RAllen]

Glen

Well, you had to ask what brand on tooth bar and with that single question, I am fully exposed.

I don't know the brand, now I have said it and every one knows, I feel better. I have watched in wonder as many on this board have discussed their detachable tooth bars and how they modified themselves by cutting and welding.

I purchased it through my local tractor dealer. They showed me a sample, it looked heavy duty and had replaceable teeth. I simply said get me one. It was $360 installed. The great thing about having really competent people install it was they were able to use the same holes already drilled into my bucket used to mount brush forks. If you really need the brand, I would be happy to call my dealer, let me know.

The Landpride Rake has gauge wheels and the blade that drops down. The wheels work but I am not sure I would go for the blade as my boxblade does the same thing. It does grade light snow, something the boxblade is really not suited to do. The wheels and blade also prevents you from reversing the rake. Its a Model LR15- 72" wide. Apparently the only real difference between the LR15 and LR25 is in the mount. The LR25 can be adapted to use hydro powered tilting. The LR15 seems to be more than adequate for my tractor.

One advantage of the drop down blade is for final leveling. With the gauge wheels and loose soil, its easier to get a really flat surface. The drop down blade has detachable "ears" that prevent dirt from sliding off the blade somewhat like an enclosed boxblade.

So far, I have purchased all of my equipment through my original dealer- Parson's Tractor of Kalispell Montana

I really appreciate this dealer especially when I read the horror stories posted on this board.

Rick

 

[StanInCalif]

Genn-
Maybe we (I) went too far in the wrong direction. It is entirely possible to build and maintain roads and parking areas with a FEL and rear blade, but I don't have the skill to do a nice job with these tools. The problem I have is the FEL has no tilt and the rear blade won't hold enough dirt. ( and, mainly, it doesn't have a second (rear fixed or lockable) blade to serve as a "depth gauge". For me, it is easier to do a decent job of grading with a box scraper. I use the rear blade mainly for ditching and the FEL for moving material from point "A" to point "B". - Stan

 

[hayden]

I've had a box blade for a year or two and used it primarily for dirt road maintenance. I originally picked it over a grader blade bacause it seemed like it would be better at filling and leveling major ruts left over from mud season. I also liked the enclosed sides to allow more controlled placement of the soil.

I've used it with reasonable success but I too find it difficult to do final smoothing. I've also found that all the things Glenn mentioned make it harder to control the boxblade. It's not that you can't work in those conditions, it's just harder.

I just this summer got a grader blade and have only used it a few times but I do find it easier to control for final grading. At this point I pick the box blade for rough grading, then the grader for all else, but my experience is limited.

What are you thinking of using it for other than reshaping you 3 acre embankment? It doesn't sound to me like a boxblade would be the implement of choice for that job.

 

[glennmac]

Peter,

I dont think its the right tool either, although it could be. The ground near my creek has no rocks but is moist. A box might work, but I dont feel like spending a lot of money on good one, which is the only kind I would want, and then finding out it doesnt work. For one side of the creek (the much smaller in area), I kind of like the idea of (rental) tilling up the area close to the creek and then grading the loose dirt further back. For the other side (my swamp), I have always been thinking of drains--and, yes, you are right on, that has been my primary justification for a backhoe. I'll be thinking more seriously about draining after I rebuild my bridge, because I first have to be able to get to the other side, which is now a wildly overgrown swamp that needs to be hogged again.

 

[john_bud]

Glen,

<font color=blue> For the
other side (my swamp), I have always been thinking of drains--and, yes, you are right on, that has been my
primary justification for a backhoe. </font color=blue>

I read you post and I hate to bring it up, but does your state allow you to destroy wetlands?

Most states get "grumpy" with anyone messing up a lowland, bog or swamp. You may want to have a discrete discussion with your local Department of Natural Resources (or equivalent) BEFORE you do anything. It is real common for "grumpy" to turn into huge fines and the offending party being forced to return the land in question to its former state of sogginess. typically at mind boggling expense.

I hope that doesn't happen to you!
John Bud

 

[glennmac]

That's good advice, John. Yes, we have wetlands regulations and I will have to work through that. Unfortunately, like so many other good ideas, this wetlands stuff has been taken to ridiculous extremes. Every ugly muddy patch becomes the blessed Everglades. Worse yet, my wetlands, assuming they do meet that definition, were caused by silting in of the natural drainage patterns by the construction of housing way up the hill behind me.

 

[GrantMO]

I just read this entire thread and, again, not having had any experience of my own with the subject would like to comment. Twenty years ago I worked for a contractor who was a wizard with a boxblade doing the finishing grade on the lots of houses and businesses we built. He had years of experience and would never let me have a shot at it, or run his small dozer for that matter. He knew I'd be wasting valuable time trying to learn to do it right. Now, years later I plan to get a boxblade and spend alot of hours learning it. Who knows, maybe I'll talk Bird into driving up here and setting up a hydraulic top link or TnT. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[RobertN]

Glennmac,

I think of a box blade like a pair of pliers or vicegrips. If you are careful, a pair of pliers is a good all-around tool for lots of jobs. However, it doesn't necessarily do the best job. For any given use of a pair of pliers, there is a tool that is correct for the job, like a wrench, or wire strippers, a socket, ect.

A box blade does pretty good for a lot of jobs. It's a decent all-around tool. But, for most jobs, there is a specific tool, like a rock rake, or grader blade, or rippers on a tool bar ect. But... it wold be wayyyy expensive to buy all those tools, and the fast hitches to go with them(since you'd be changing tools all the time).

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[glennmac]

RobertN,

Since you are the only person I am aware of who has both the rollover box and the regular box, could you amplify your previous comparison with some more specifics. What tasks do you find the rollover better at, and which ones do you find the regular box better at? You must have been displeased at something with the rollover if you went and got a regular.

By the way, I do agree that if one takes the time to learn how to use a box properly, and if the ground isnt completely hostile, the box seems to be a tool that can do multiple tasks in an acceptable manner. That seems to be the view of many who are happy with their boxblade experience.

 

[RAllen]

Robert makes a good case for the boxblade being a good multipurpose tool but perhaps not the definitive best tool for a particular job. I agree to a point. That said let met relate how I purchased my boxblade.

Along with 2910, I purchased a Landpride 1572 Rock Rake with a drop down blade for road grading. Found the rake not to be heavy enough to "bite" and began looking at scarifiers. Even had a Landpride unit delivered to my property. In the Landpride catalog, they show their scarifier hooked in tandem with my rock rake. I tried this and found the combined unit to really be too big for my 2910. I sent the scarifier back. Traded it for the boxblade. Its heavier than the scarifier thus it bites better. The blade alone grades better than the drop down blade for rough grading- again its heavier. The boxblade was even cheaper that the scarifier. The drop down blade with gauge wheels does a better job at final grading but the box is far better getting hard ground workable. At least in our small tractors, I wonder why anyone would buy a scarifier since the box blade does the same thing, better and cheaper. Thus ripping hard soils is one place the boxblade really shines. I guess a road grader would do a better job but I don't think any three point attachment could better the box at that particular job.

Rick /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[RobertN]

I have not had a lot of time to use the box scaper yet... But, I do like it better as an all-around tool.

The rollover box works great for scraping alone, pushing alone, smoothing alone, or ripping alone; it can only do one function at a time.It does a BEAUTIFUL job of smoothing. By setting rolling the blade over backwards, ascii attempt <--( , and pulling forward, it smooths like a hot knife on butter. Part of this though, is that the entire blade had a curve to it, instead of the flat back a box scraper has.

When in the rip position, you have about 10" of ripper you can use. With 5 rippers, my little 19hp Kubota can only pull till the rippers are 4-5" deep, depending on soil condition(Calif Gold country hard red clay). Given the right tractor, you could really rip deep.

As far as scraping, that curved blade can really cut in. Even my little B8200 could really bury the blade and take a BIG chunk!

In my time with the box, I have found it very handy to run an inch or so of rippers with the box. That is real handy for smoothing and "adjusting" and area. If I adjust the box forward on the toplink(TnT!), then it will expose more ripper, and dig deeper. I just really like that ability to do a combination scrape/rip/cut.

Now, the rollover could accomplish the same thing, but it would take a ripping pass, and then a scraping pass. I think that was, if anything, the displeasing part.

Now, one "wrench" to throw into the works, is I had my box scraper only a short time before setting up the TnT. I have not tried the rollover since. Maybe I will do that this weekend for giggles. I have a dirt pile I can bust up and move around.

I can't really think of anything a box can do that a roll-over can't, or vica/versa. The box can do more at one time, but a rollover can be more agressive at a single task.

One other thing of note, is the rollover scraper is HEAVY. My medium duty box scraper is definitely lighter(I don't have the figures handy).

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[LarryT]

Bill, I have the Gearmore kit, but the dealer made the mounting bracket. $100 is WAYYY too much. If you go back to my earlier posts with pictures, the bracket is a flat piece of steel with two "U" bolts. I'd do it myself.

Larry...

 

[LarryT]

Well, it's hard to imagine that anyone could possibly add anything to all the posts on this subject over the past few days. However, I've been away for awhile and have read the entire thread tonight. I think there are a few important points missing on box blade operation that should be added to this thread. Before I go into that, I need to add that my box is "medium" weight unit, about 450 lbs. It has a fixed rear blade and I have no experience with a hinged rear blade.

I think no one here questions how to "dig" with a box blade. The question seems to be how to "smooth" with the box. Here are my tips;

1. Most importantly - GO SLOW! No matter how much horsepower your tractor has, dirt falls by gravity and depending on the moisture content, it can fall pretty slow.

2. Tilt adjustments should be very FINE. Once you are in a "neutral" position, e.g. equal ground contact with front and rear blade, small adjustments can make big differences. A 1/4" difference in blade height can make a big difference in results.

3. For smoothing, which includes filling low spots and bringing down high spots, the tilt should be adjusted to where the box remains about 1/3 full, give or take a little.

4. For final smoothing, tilt the box a little further back on the rear blade. There should still be some buildup of material in the box, but that should be a realtively small amount.

5. Don't expect a mirror finish in one pass. Repetition is the key. Repeated passes, preferably at different attack angles, will yeild the best results. and amazing quickly.

6. In addition to the above, if the ground is hard, lower the scarficers a small amount into the ground to break up the soil before the blades do their thing.

Having said all that, I'm no expert. I probably have about 50 hours with a box blade. But, I have very good results with my box blade in rocky hard clay soil in Southern California. Despite initial reactions, I love my box blade and it is the default attachment on the back of my tractor.

Harv, you gotta fix that rear blade!

Larry...

 

[Harv]

Well, I'm heading back up to the property tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon, so I'll finally have a chance to apply all the wisdom that has poured forth in this thread.

Just a side note here -- Mom has been in and out of the hospital numerous times since I was there a couple weeks ago. Docs aren't quite sure what's causing all of her new pains, but she has been unable to take a single walk since I left. Ironic that I should have started this thread when I did. Today's report was that she is finally doing better, so I might be just in time to take her on a little test walk myself. Better get this path polished off, eh? /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Anyway, LarryT's summary most closely matches my own observations, which is what led to my original question. Going very slowly (been using first or second gear) and making micro tilt adjustments from a "flat" box was what was working best for me. Each pass left an entirely different texture as I experimented with the angles.

I'll make one final inspection of my box blade to make sure there is no hidden way to lock down the back blade. If there isn't, I might just be doing a little drilling and bolting this weekend. With just shy of 50 hours seat time and even less with each implement, this will be the first time I attack any of them with power tools. Gotta start sometime, I guess. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

I'll try to take pictures that show the results of my efforts on the path. Not the easiest thing to capture effectively on film (pixels?), but I'll see what I can do.

 

[Flint]

For now we see through a glass, darkly;

While not a religious man, I couldn't help but make this literary allusion. I attempted to put a mirror finish to a bed of gravel on the side of a pole barn so I could stack some firewood away from Oregon's beautiful winter weather coming up soon. Needless to say I became very frustrated with my "dark glass" results. I managed to get the rough part done and then resorted to that time honored and trusty attachment, the hand rake, to polish it into a mirror. I don't mean to take pleasure in other's troubles, but it's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling up that mountainous learning curve dragging a box scraper.

Thanks for all the help,

Dan