Yet Another Box Blade Question

Bird · Jul 17, 2001

Bill, I first thought I was going to have to tee into the tank return line, also, but found that just isn't necessary. Naturally, the rear hydraulic block has an inlet and outlet, and an open centered valve also has an inlet and outlet. The valve also has a power beyond port, but mine came with that port plugged. There is an adapter to replace the plug if you want to use the power beyond. So you plumb from the outlet on the hydraulic block to the inlet on the valve, then from the outlet on the valve to the inlet on the block, and leave the power beyond port plugged on the valve; no need for a tank return line. Now that means that you cannot be operating the new valve (moving the levers on it) and raising or lowering the 3-point simultaneously, but I don't need to do that (only have one right hand to operate those levers so I only move one at a time anyway; can't imagine wanting to turn in the seat to use both hands to operate both levers at the same time). However, if you do want to be able to use both at the same time, then of course, you will need the adapter to go in the power beyond port, plumb from there to the inlet on the hydraulic block, and then plumb from the outlet port on the new valve to the tank return, and I don't know of any way to do that except tee into the tank return line from the loader valve. And if you wanted to add yet another hydraulic valve sometime, then you would also need to use the power beyond port (surely you aren't going to do that/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif).

Incidentally, I talked to three different dealers and none of them were familiar with using that optional rear hydraulic outlet. Lately it seems that folks think I'm the one who knows about this stuff, and what I know about tractor hydraulics I learned on this forum, especially from MChalkley, and then most of the specifics on the B2710/2910 from LarryT. And of course, with a little help along the way from several others./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

Harv · Jul 17, 2001

I know I don't have to respond to every message here, but I'm really appreciating
all this input and I wanna say so. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

CowboyDoc -
you can set the three point to be more or less sensitive.

I know of one adjustment which controls the lowering speed of the 3-pt, but that's about it. Anybody else know of a 3-pt sensitivity adjustment?

gordon -
Good suggestion about sending an email to Howse. In fact, I just did it. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Oh, and now that you've re-posted it, I remember when you put that message out. Guess I need a laptop for my tractor, so's I can have all this valuable information when I need it. I try to commit it to memory, but that seems to be one of those commitments I just can't make any more. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

MarkV -
I don't seem to have near the problems with a box blade everyone else has.
I'm suspecting that the type of soil you are working with has a lot to do with the results achieved with the box blade. The stuff I'm working with right now is fairly hard-packed and laden with marble-to-football-sized rocks. Even the smaller rocks mess up an otherwise good pass with the blade.

fishman -
Thanks for the positive spin. If my mom could understand what you just said, she would be most pleased that she was able to help. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

George -
Your reverse bulldozing scenario seems to make sense. In fact, earlier in this thread I allude to the notion that perhaps the rear flapper blade was for reverse usage. I'll have to try that more than I have.

probably need to spend less time in the city and more in the seat

Amen.

Glenn --
Nice summary! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird · Jul 17, 2001

earlier in this thread I eluded to the notion

Eluded???/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

glennmac · Jul 17, 2001

Bird, as you alluded to in another thread, you are going out of the air repair business. Since manual toplinking and tilting eludes us all, I bet you could make a good buck going around the country installing rear valves for a whole bunch of us hydraulic coveters.

Bird · Jul 17, 2001

Very good, Glennmac; just had to yank Harv's chain./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

Harv · Jul 18, 2001

Bird, Glenn -

I consider my chain thoroughly yanked. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

On the other hand -- you have no proof that I ever made such a literary faux pas. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

BTW, Bird -- the suggestion that Glenn just made is not without merit. I think you should start by putting together a hydraulic toplink kit for an L2500DT. I assume you will offer free shipping. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

glennmac · Jul 18, 2001

I think this has been a very useful disussion in uncovering the mysteries of the boxblade. I'd like to pick up on Harv's comment about soil and offer my non-cynical views as to why some people are successful with boxes and others are not.

I have been interested in boxblades from the beginning because of these contrasting experiences people report. I have read, more than once, every thread on this subject here and on CTB. I have talked to many dealers.

When so many people, including very experienced people, here and on CTB report frustration and failure with boxblades, a reasonable conclusion to draw is: they don't work.

However, when other people, including some relative novices, sing praises about boxblades, one cannot reasonably draw such a general negative conclusion. Something else is going on. Is the reason that all the frustrated users are incompetent or stupid or lazy or inexperienced? Is it that the successful users are all talented and smart and harder workers and more experienced? I dont think these are valid reasons to explain the reported discrepancies with boxblade success.

Yes, boxblading is apparently a difficult and delicate technique to master even in the best of circumstance. But I think is the circumstances that are largely responsible for the discrepancy. Namely, the soil and geological characteristics of the user's locale.

I hypothesize the ideal geology for successful boxblading is: (1) perfectly flat land, (2) with no rocks, (3) with no vegetation, and (4) with dryish, sandy, "flowable" soil. Indeed, just about every picture in catalogs or marketing brochures that show boxblades in use show this kind of circumstance--pictures of smoothing a horse ring or an all-dirt, flat construction site.

I further hypothesize that the more the soil and geology depart from this ideal, the more difficult, frustrating and unproductive boxblading becomes. In other words boxblading becomes more difficult, regardless of technique and experience, as: (1) the land elevations get steeper, hillier, bumpier and more irregular; and/or (2) the soil gets rockier and rockier and bouldery; and/or (3) the soil contains more grass, vegetation and roots; and/or (4) the soil gets moister, clingier and clumpier.

This also largely explains, I believe, why boxblades are more popular and prevalent in some parts of the country than others.

MarkV · Jul 18, 2001

Glen,
I think you must be right about soil conditions being a factor. Your post reminded me of a tread, long ago, where someone said none of the dealers in their New England area carried box blades. Just could not sell them. I remember being surprised, in that almost everyone in my area has a box blade. I think it was Bird that also said most of the tractor owners in his area had box blades. Makes me think that those nice smooth, round rocks that grow in some areas may cause many of the problems. I have good old Georgia red clay that can become very hard. When it is to hard, I break it up before working it. I also have rock, but it is more sharp edged type of rock that has come loose from bed rock. When I pick up a rock it tends to stay in the box with the dirt fill. I am wondering if the smoother rock works its way under the blade, with greater ease, making it harder to get smooth grades?

MarkV

cowboydoc · Jul 18, 2001

Glenn,
I'd have to respectfully almost completely disagree with your post. Yes different soils are more difficult but not impossible to work than others. When I was a kid we had an old D-7 cat. This thing was like driving a tank. I'd go out to run that thing to fix roads and such and I'd have more whoops and dos than a roller coaster. My granddad would come out and in a half hour had it so smooth that you build a house on it. It took me years before I could run that thing competently. Same thing with a box blade. When I was in college I went out to help a guy with a landscape business on the weekends. He had a couple different box blades that he did almost everything with. I couldn't even grade a hill when I started working with him, but he could go out and build you a sand castle with it in any kind of conditions or soil. After alot of tips and help from him I got to be pretty decent with it. When I put in the barn at the place I have now I had to build it on the side of a hill. I didn't have all the equipment I have now. I had that Massey and a box blade. I cut down about 8' of that hill, pasture ground with clay soil mostly, and made a pad 50 x 65. I built it up 12" and had one side slope off and the other I built a retaining wall and drain off all with the boxblade. My roads here were all built with the boxblade. It was a mixture of rock, black dirt, and clay.

Now I dont' consider myself any smarter or have any special skills anymore so that anyone else here. I just was lucky enough to grow up using machinery and have some guys teach me how to do it. There was a thread here on welding awhile back. Now take a welder and go out back with no instruction and start welding. How good are you going to be? Everyone else does the same thing and starts welding with no instruction. The consensus is going to be that a welder is a worthless tool because noone can get it right. You probably wouldn't even think of touching a welder without some good education, likely blow your head off if you're torch welding. Just like guys have gone out and learned welding at a school or from someone else so it is with a boxblade. It's a tough piece of equipment to learn how to use but once you know how to use it's a very valuable piece of equipment in any conditions.

mlmartin · Jul 18, 2001

Being a New Englander, born and bred, and a happy box blade owner I think I can shed some light on this sub-thread/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

First, I bought my box blade from a concern in MS. The manufacturer is A.T.L.A.S and is located in Tremont MS, IIRC. It's a basic box blade, 5 1/2 feet wide, 493 lbs with a fixed rear blade and five scarifiers. The scarifiers can be set to two working depths. I have a manual top link. I use it on a JD 870 with high floatation turf tires.

The material being worked makes a huge difference. Running a scarifier into an embedded boulder at 3 mph makes you happy that you have your seat belt on/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Bank run gravel (usually 3-5 inches and less around here) works pretty well. The larger rocks will scrape grooves in the surface or pick up the box as they roll out the back. A few passes will typically isolate the larger rocks in the box to be dumped off the work site. If there are many large rocks, they tend to help each other escape out the back of the box/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Topsoil with turf works pretty well if you attack it with the scarifiers full down first. The clumps of turf that gather up in the box after a few passes are best dragged off the worksite. Using a tiller first to break up the turf would probably be a big win. I don't have a tiller, yet.

Stone dust works like butter/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif.

I can't comment on clay. I don't have any.

As to uneven surfaces and building up layers, I have had good luck using the blade in reverse to knock down the high spots and then using multiple passes going forward, lowering the box with the 3ph on each pass. Being able to do passes at right angles to each other makes the results better and reduces the total number of passes required.

I estimate that I have less than 40 hours of box blade use. I've had few of the problems (whoop de doos etc) that others have reported. I think getting the box angle where you need it is _very_ important. For most of my work I have the back of the box slightly lower than the front. The other key, IMHO, is to do a little at a time. Others advise keeping the box full of material. I only do this when finish grading, if then. I find making more passes as I drop the blade down works very well.

I do very little digging with the blade. I have had to use the backhoe and FEL for cutting because of the amount of concrete rip rap and boulders I have encountered in cutting swales.

My experience seems to show that weight isn't a big factor, but I don't have any hard clay surfaces. I could imagine that clay requires more weight for more digging force.

Matthew

GlueGuy · Jul 18, 2001

I have to agree with CowboyDoc.

I have "almost" 50 hours on my B7500, and most of it has been using the bxoblade. As some of you may recall, I was totally flumoxed and befuddled by the operation of this tool as anyone (maybe more). I got a lot of the same advice that Harv got, and what I took away was: practice.

So I practiced. I started out trying to minimize the damage to the shared part of our road. Just in case you might think it's easy, we have hills; serious hills. We have rocks; round, sharp, big, small. I practiced. Take small bites. Observe what the boxblade does with different input. I practiced.

Now, I won't say that I'm "good". I will say that I have become half-way competent. I now get complements from neighbors about the road. Hey we're getting somewhere!

The GlueGuy

Bird · Jul 18, 2001

no proof that I ever made such a literary faux pas

Someone's been tampering with the evidence./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Free shipping on the TNT kits is no problem. Of course, you apparently haven't heard about my labor rates and profit margin on the parts./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

StanInCalif · Jul 18, 2001

Glenn-
The rear blade swings back only. No , you can't ride the rear blade, so it is not as good for backblading - But I suspect as we get better with these things and more of us get hyd. top links, we will be doing less backblading. In any case I think a lockable hinged blade is the best of both worlds.
I agree with what your catalogs say and with your analysis.

StanInCalif · Jul 18, 2001

I totally agree. In my earlier post I mentioned the importance of always keeping some material in the box, but in this case, I would back off a little on that as Harv doesn't want his mom walking on powder.

RobertN · Jul 18, 2001

Glennmac,
I have found the regular box scraper with rippers to be a more useful all-around tool.

The roll-over scraper is very nice for smoothing. If you roll it over back-facing, and poull forward, it does a fantastic job. It also work really good when you just want to rip things up; with the rippers down, it gives you great control.

On my roll-over, when the rippers are wolled into place, you do all depth control with the 3pt height control. Yes, it does allow you to cut or smooth in forward and reverse. All you do is lift it up, release the lever, and let it woll over. The hardest part is getting the spelling right so it rolls over instead of wolls over. It is a terrible thing when it wolls over /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Also of note, the roll-over box tends to be heavy... That helps when you really want to dig in.

The roll-over seems to be more of a niche solution. It does a *few* things VERY well. However, I have found that the box scraper, with rippers, does a *lot* of stuff pretty good.

I wouldn't mind keeping my roll-over box, but could use the $$$ to fund other adventures /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

StanInCalif · Jul 18, 2001

Harv -
Glenn County - Ag country-few rocks, but lotsa weeds. Anyway, I agree with with the others that say the rear blade should be locked for this project- but not permanently - you may want to go back. My "locking mechanism" is simply a tab with a hole in it welded to each end of the blade and a corresponding one on the back of the frame through which a bolt is inserted - Are you sure you don't have something like this ? -Stan

RobertN · Jul 18, 2001

Up Corning and Red Bluff direction???

Say, any Farmall A's, H's, or Cub's out thatta way?

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

glennmac · Jul 18, 2001

CDoc,

You cant possibly disagree with my entire post. Most of it was nothing more than a longwinded way of stating the self-evident proposition that: the effectiveness of a shovel depends on what you're trying to shovel. But your emphasis on the importance of practice and experience is duly noted and seems to be undeniable.

My soil hypothesis is actually more involved. I believe the box is more effective in those parts of the country which, a zillion years ago during Mark Twain's Sylvanian Period, were under an ocean, and less effective in those parts of the country that were Sylvanian mountain tops. Stated yet differently, the box is more effective in sedimentary soils than igneous soils.

You will note that a recent Gallup poll shows that all the happy and contented boxers live in sedimentary states ... like Iowa.

StanInCalif · Jul 19, 2001

SE of Orland.
Don't know of any, but will keep my eyes open.

cowboydoc · Jul 19, 2001

Glenn,
I should have phrased it differently. I disagreed with the following: "But I think is the circumstances that are largely responsible for the discrepancy. Namely, the soil and geological characteristics of the user's locale.

I hypothesize the ideal geology for successful boxblading is: (1) perfectly flat land, (2) with no rocks, (3) with no vegetation, and (4) with dryish, sandy, "flowable" soil. Indeed, just about every picture in catalogs or marketing brochures that show boxblades in use show this kind of circumstance--pictures of smoothing a horse ring or an all-dirt, flat construction site.

I further hypothesize that the more the soil and geology depart from this ideal, the more difficult, frustrating and unproductive boxblading becomes. In other words boxblading becomes more difficult, regardless of technique and experience, as: (1) the land elevations get steeper, hillier, bumpier and more irregular; and/or (2) the soil gets rockier and rockier and bouldery; and/or (3) the soil contains more grass, vegetation and roots; and/or (4) the soil gets moister, clingier and clumpier."

Where I learned to use one was out west in Idaho and Oregon. WIDE range of soils out there. The guy I was talking about could use one in any soil and on any grade. I'm not that good and never will be but it can be done. It's a tough piece of equipment to get good at. While yes you are right about it being easier in soil conditions you can use in any conditions it just might not be as easy.