Comparison Yanmar lawsuit.

[clemsonfor]

That's what's in the filing. I doubt that they will be able to buy back after all the legal fees. Unless they ( all the dealers) have mega$$$$$ yanmar will break most if not all parts sellers with legal fees. When you come down to it. It's all about the $$$ yanmar is (as they state) loosing alot of $$$ on tractors & parts. Why else would they be asking for all profits that were made from tractors & parts

They are loosing money yes. Ym240 owners as well as other us tractors and us grey owners buy from someone like hoye or fredericks mostly, instead of yanmar. Only reason i do is cause they wont sell me parts at Yanmar america and hoye is one of the best parts places i have dealt with!!

But here is the thing that the defense needs to prove in court. HOw come Ford/chevy/ honda, or whoever dosent go after the aftermarket and places like autozone or advance? They loose sales to these places, i can walk into advanceauto and out with a brand new alternator for a 2011 ford truck, instead of going to the dealer to buy it. This is the same thing. OK if you want to talk tractors there are aftermarket places making parts for Massey, Ford, JD, IH you name it??????


Also i did notice that Hoyes site Yanmarowners.com has changed to ymowners.com. There is a note on the site that says this, they said it changed because yanmar america now has control over the yanmarowners.com site domain (it still redirects i think to the Ymowners site if you type it in though), not sure if they forcefully took it or hoye sold it to them?

I wish Aaron with hoye would comment as i know he is reading this but probly won't as he is either smart or has been advised by his legal council to not say anything about this topic as a whole (would be my guess).

 

[rhett]

The way I see this. (keep in mind I'm scatter brained)

It started on the soil of Japan, they do not allow the use or resale of units after a set time frame.
So, a second party sold units as export for a marginal cash return. (I think a 2nd party)
The US market for Grays became lucrative.
Inexperienced operators are injured or killed putting blame on the manufacturer even though the manufacturer has no control over the sales of used equipment.
YAC enters the US market with their line.
US lawyers see big $$$,$$$,$$$, litigation's begin.
A jury trial is demanded.

All used items originating with a Trademark, resold, donated or given in the US are actually on trial.

If the end goal is to destroy units, that should have taken place on Japan's soil, Not exporting the issue after making profits using the US Judicial System.

GRAY Liability, that should not be an issue for YAC. If it is proven they did not export to the US market place, nor Import Gray's? On the other hand if YCL was instrumental with Export operations, they are Liable and cases should be handled by Japan's Legal System.

I have no legal background, but hate seeing my Country going to He!! in a Hand Basket. What will we out source next?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

From your post it sounds like in Japan they either had to melt them down or export them.

I do not see Yanmar (proper) doing well in the USA market. The buyers seem to be those looking for low cost grunt tractors. Japan lost out to China and India in the tractor making business I expect and China will stay in the game by moving production to Africa. India has a huge home market as well as China and Africa.

Over the next 10-20 years when many of us posting today will be dead there will be a glut of CUT's on the market that may forever kill the market for new. There are 10 year old CUT's out there with less than 500 hours when they are good for 5000 hours with care.

I think Yanmar is not living in the real world when it comes to top management.

 

[Car Doc]

They (Japanese) make some really fantastic high performance cars and diesel small trucks etc that they have to get rid of after so long I cant remember the law at this moment? (sounds like shogun law or something like that??)

But those cars can not be brought in the states unless they can be federally crash safety and emissions certified thats how the gray market cars stay out of here which is a shame there are a few I would give anything to own. fwtw

Funny thing is we are getting the Japanese mini trucks over here with the 660cc 3 cyl engines. They are allowed on county roads in my area like a 4 wheeler but not a highway or interstate. fwtw

 

[Scooby074]

They (Japanese) make some really fantastic high performance cars and diesel small trucks etc that they have to get rid of after so long I cant remember the law at this moment? (sounds like shogun law or something like that??)

But those cars can not be brought in the states unless they can be federally crash safety and emissions certified thats how the gray market cars stay out of here which is a shame there are a few I would give anything to own. fwtw

Funny thing is we are getting the Japanese mini trucks over here with the 660cc 3 cyl engines. They are allowed on county roads in my area like a 4 wheeler but not a highway or interstate. fwtw

In Japan it's an age thing. After X (i forget exactly) the car requires a complete inspection where all fasteners are tightened, major components replaced even if not broken (time expired). It becomes cheaper to sell the cars over here either as complete cars of cut offs instead of complying with the inspection.

Were starting to see the Kei cars (those small 660 cc trucks and cars) here because they meet OUR age requirements for import (20 yrs old I think) and they are time expired in Japan. Win Win.

I wish we could buy those Kei cars new, legally. They are great city vehicles. They should be brought over and sold as such (ie: not allowed on highways)

 

[clemsonfor]

Those Mini trucks are cool, but not street legal at all in this state. Id love to have one of those for the farm.

 

[Soundguy]

i'd love to hav eone here too.. would be perfect size to haul a single round bale of hay plus a palatte of feed. in fact.. PERFECT size for it flat bedded out. economical too....

 

[clemsonfor]

Did a google search. It appears they are going after hoye ( others?????) Yanmar America Corporation v. Hoye Tractor Parts, Inc. et al :: Justia Dockets & Filings

All I can say is. I hope they loose . As I read it,,, they seek the seizure & forfeiture of all yanmar tractors imported into the US

I think the others are the company that they use to sell yanmars under when they sold tractors if i am not mistaken. I think it is like his brother or brother in law or something?

 

[kenmac]

The suit is filed against hoye tractor parts,lam industries, agpro tractor parts, stans tractors, compact tractors .com. These (as the suit states) are all connect to hoye. They show several exhibits from hoye's site about selling parts, tractors, etc, YAC wants money they have lost due to the sale of parts & tractors & an order for for hoye to notify their tractor customers of the material differences of a grey tractor from a us tractor & to re-purchase any tractor sold at the customer's request. these re- purchased tractors are to be impounded & Destroyed. Ordering the impounding & destruction of the Defendant's infringing goods. Just a few of the things YAC list in the filing trademark infringments,unfair competition,false advertising,unlawful importation of trademarked goods,injury to business reputation,trade name & trademark. If I'm ever unable to purchase parts for my tractor & have to sell it for scrap. I would never buy a yanmar. My hope for all that are involved is they have enough $$ to hang in there with YAC'S suit. I doubt they (YAC) will stop their agression with these companies.I believe, They will go after anyone selling parts for our tractors until there are no parts to keep the tractors going

 

[winston1]

I think the others are the company that they use to sell yanmars under when they sold tractors if i am not mistaken. I think it is like his brother or brother in law or something?

Aaron posted this back in April although the name change hasn't actually happened yet. I suspect it is connected with all of this. Yanmar Tractor Support Message Board • View topic - ****** This Web
site Has Moved - IMPORTANT!! *****

I guess it has happened!

 

[clemsonfor]

i clicked that link, winston, and it goes to YMowners.com

But that post is where i got my info.

 

[California]

I've been reading the comments here, haven't done any original research.

If the lawsuit demands that a customer can force the vendor to buy back a tractor that the customer doesn't like - seems to me this would bury the flaky sellers and leave the good sellers untouched.

Also - and I hope Yanmar America reads this - several years ago when I bought my first used (US) Yanmar one of the first things I bought for it was a new clutch safety switch to replace one the previous owner had butchered. I got it from an Authorized Yanmar Parts dealer, sealed original Yanmar packaging etc. It was apparently New Old Stock from 1980 because the rubber accordion shield around the plunger disintegrated in the first week. I asked for a replacement; was told Yanmar won't replace electrical parts. I switched over to customarily buying from Hoye instead. I've never had a problem with a Hoye order.

I would like to know Yanmar's intentions re broad support for the tractors they sold here in the 70's~80's.

 

[kenmac]

Well, you can view a Filing:
"Case 4:12-cv-00509-Y Document 1 Filed 07/23/12 Page 1 of 107"
Yanmar v. Big Red's Equipment
8.12mb pdf file

http://www.ndtexblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Yanmar.pdf

to mad to comment more

I just read this.. This reads about the same for hoye

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I read to page 26 and stopped after Yanmar started praying.

Basically this is the typical boil plate cut and paste type of lawsuit. In fact it sounds like other lawsuits from non related class of industries that I have read.

If the defendants will not cave before going to the court room I think Yanmar is in over their heads and have used wording that can piss off the judicial system.

Gray markets exist for most all goods be it watches, cars, tractors, etc.

If a Yanmar factory stamped the name on a tractor then it can can be used in marketing I expect just as I can can recondition 10 JD's, Fords and Zetors and use those names in an ad.

If any company is passing themselves off as authorized agents of Yanmar when they are not then they are going down I expect.

If the importing of these 'gray' market tractors has been going on for 5-10 years without Yanmar taking any action of this nature before then I expect Yanmar proper may be dead meat in the court room.

It is my guess if Yanmar could prevail when and if this case continues through court system that any remedy would only apply to tractors not yet on US soil and there will be no impact on current owners.

I have no guess about the parts side of the suit. If Yanmar holds a current valid patent for any part for sell that may be sucessfully defended.

The defendants could make a case they helped Yanmar financially by providing a market to Yanmar's inital customers giving them more cash to buy more new Yanmar products.

If Yanmar did not force the inital buyer to agree never to resell any product with Yanmar stamped then these tractors in the USA now should be non LEGAL issues it would seem to my farmer mindset. Now if the inital buyers broke their signed agreements with Yarmar by selling them to exporters then the monkey should be on their backs and Yanmar should address the root of the legal case and not the end result of Yanmar or its inital customers actions.

Basically I expect the lawsuit if defense legal teams do their home work should be able to make it look like BS to any reasonable judge and the broad suit be tossed and let Yanmar come back with the common sense issues at another time and/or place.

There is also a possibility that Yanmar is only acting as a puppet of the major tractor companies of the world. Cheap used Yanmar tractors are doing more $$$ harm to them than to Yanmar proper perhaps.

 

[rScotty]

Since Yanmar has not been in the American market until just a few days ago, I don't see how they can be effected financially at all, indeed I would argue that the gray market tractors have built the following and reputation that Yanmar enjoys now in USA, and will fully exploit it by finally selling hear directly. In other words the only reason I know anything at all about Yanmar tractors their reliability and began to investigate Yanmar as a possible small tractor purchase is because of the grey market supply here in the USA. It's the only reason there is a demand now for Yanmar to come to USA, people want a new Yanmar, to include the colors. The grey market guys have built the Yanmar name here, not sure who should pay whom here.
HS

That's not quite accurate on one fact, but you do bring up a new and interesting argument about who will ultimately benefit from the US grey market in Yanmar sales and service.

To repair the inaccuracy: Yanmar was very active in the US market in the 70s and 80s. They had official US factory dealers, US model tractors, factory tech schools, warehouses with parts in this country, and a completely staffed US corporate headquarters. Yanmar's investment in the US market convinced a lot of people here to also invest into becoming Yanmar dealers, mechanics, and parts providers. This was done with the expectation that Yanmar would continue in this market.

But in spite of being profitably established in the US market, Yanmar elected to abandon the US market. Apparently they left because Yanmar decided that manufacturing a re-branded tractor for John Deere would be more lucrative than selling under their own brand name. Yanmar's explanations to the US dealers at the time was that a portion of Yanmar's subsequent deal with Deere involved Yanmar's promise to shut down all Yanmar branded operations in the US. When Yanmar abandoned their US presence, people who had invested their life savings and decades of work in the Yanmar brand lost heavily. I know some of them personally.

So there may well be some merit in the argument that it was the grey market dealers - not Yanmar - who kept the Yanmar name alive in the US.....and that they did so only after the Yanmar factory voluntarily abandoned their own position and obligations in the US. Because of their efforts, the US grey market that evolved may ultimately benefit Yanmar. Perhaps it is Yanmar who owes the grey market dealers and not the reverse.
rScotty

 

[swmillbrook]

Someone told me Fredricks was being sued too, but I don't see any info on it. I see alot of other companies being sued but not Fredricks. Do you know anything about it?

 

[phatgemi]

While I'm sure that i do not have as much historical insight into this as many. I have owned my yannie for 8 years and did lots of research before buying. I was fortunate to live near a dealer which carried a lot of grey yannies. This was way before the age of VN refurbs. There were several dealers withing a 250 mile range and likewise there were several authorized yanmar parts dealers. As long as you had the yanmar part number you could get just about anything. Parts books for your yannie were like gold. Now fast forward and most (not all) of those dealers are out of business. Try and find a authorized parts dealer who has been around. No disrespect at all to Hoye because they provide a great service and now have probably the best selection available. Customer service second to none also. kudo's to them but still when I get parts, they are not the genuine thing.
Now most dealers are selling VN refurbs. Dealers used to get conex boxes full of tractors straight out of Japan and while some looked a bit worn, most were in pretty good operational shape. Most dealers didn't do much prep on them but you still got a decent tractor. Now you get a fresh paint job "refurb" and if you have no problems, you're a lucky man indeed. What happened????? Did the source of decent tractors finally dry up? Some say it's part of a long range plan by yanmar to dry up the market of good tractors and flood with junk. Then the lawsuit and so on.
I don't know all the answers but I do know the heyday of Yanmar used tractors is gone. It's a shame! Any opinions?????

 

[clemsonfor]

From what we think is the case from the member from Japan that still farms his familys few acres with thier like ym1300 or 1500 maybe he said there are not many still around of the ym age. MOst were bought up by men coming around to all the old farms 10 years ago or so, which would make sense to the time frame of them getting here in mass conex box quanties. He thinks the volume of old yanmars is just not there anymore which would be why the vn refurbers were riding the coattails so to speek in the market. Making whole tractors from parts tractors in cheap labor places and building off the good yanmar rep.

This member has not been around in 6 months to a year i think. He only had a few posts then never returned at least to post.

As far as yanmar flooding the market with "junk" on purpose that would do nothing for them but to damage thier name. Yes in the short run people would not want to buy grey Yamars due to the "junk" rep, but the overall taste that would be left in peoples mouth would be they were Junk tractors then why buy one now.

As far as the vn dealers im not sure when they came about but i would say 5 years ago was the heyday of VNs. NOw one of the companies is out of business and only one is left (there were 2 doing it). I bought 3 years ago and that was on the tail slide of the whole thing i think. The tractor i bought was one of the last ones the dealer i bought from had. At the time he may of had 15-20 yms on the lot as he sold those down he never replaced them, but still would get you one if you wanted. He also had Mitsus and maybe iseki?? As far as 8 years ago i think they still had the yms then. I have been seeing the ads as far back as 2004, most were genuine Yms then, as i know the soucre that i was seeing's ads.

 

[phatgemi]

How about the availability of genuine yanmar parts. For instance if you had a parts book and you owned a 2000 which is the step brother of the 240. Since the 240 was a us model, parts were available. If I had the part number, I could order a genuine yanmar part. Where did all those go?????

 

[winston1]

How about the availability of genuine yanmar parts. For instance if you had a parts book and you owned a 2000 which is the step brother of the 240. Since the 240 was a us model, parts were available. If I had the part number, I could order a genuine yanmar part. Where did all those go?????

As with most equipment, the manufacturers quit making them after a period of time. These old Yanmars are 30+ years old including the US sold ones.