Dealer XR4140 stalling

[sodamo]

Yea, could come to that. Originally thinking maybe float got stuck being empty. I didn’t put anything other than air and liquid into tank. Might try my bore scope camera first.

Still curious what else sets off the alarm as that could be related, or not.

 

[sodamo]

Well, it isn’t the fuel cap. Ran about 30 minutes before stalling. Carefully removed fuel cap, but no sound of air. Restarted and then shortly went to the 1400 rpm mode, no error code. Stalled again.
Restarted and drove back to house in limp (1400) mode. While stopped at gate engine revved to normal, drove about 25 ft and stalled. Stalled twice more on way back to shed.

Got LS tech email address. Awaiting response.

 

[GS650GL]

You stated previously that you had dash lights going crazy and other weird electrical problems. This points to bad grounds. If you have already checked all the grounds on the machine, there could still be a bad ground internally in a harness. Several ground wires are spliced together somewhere inside the harnesses, and a bad splice will cause something to have a bad ground. This does not always cause fault codes. I have fixed two LS tractors that had this issue, one was an XR4100 series. After verifying the battery ground cable and all other chassis grounds were good, I took off the dash cowling around the instrument cluster and checked the main black ground wire in a large harness connector between the instrument cluster and firewall. With an ohm meter, I checked the resistance between this ground wire and the battery ground by piercing the insulation. Instead of having zero ohms resistance, I had about 10 ohms and this was with key off and no electrical load. I stripped some insulation off this wire and soldered another wire to it and connected the other end to a bolt on the frame that was a known good ground. All the weird electrical gremlins went away for good without replacing any harnesses. Just something to keep in mind, good luck.

 

[sodamo]

You stated previously that you had dash lights going crazy and other weird electrical problems. This points to bad grounds. If you have already checked all the grounds on the machine, there could still be a bad ground internally in a harness. Several ground wires are spliced together somewhere inside the harnesses, and a bad splice will cause something to have a bad ground. This does not always cause fault codes. I have fixed two LS tractors that had this issue, one was an XR4100 series. After verifying the battery ground cable and all other chassis grounds were good, I took off the dash cowling around the instrument cluster and checked the main black ground wire in a large harness connector between the instrument cluster and firewall. With an ohm meter, I checked the resistance between this ground wire and the battery ground by piercing the insulation. Instead of having zero ohms resistance, I had about 10 ohms and this was with key off and no electrical load. I stripped some insulation off this wire and soldered another wire to it and connected the other end to a bolt on the frame that was a known good ground. All the weird electrical gremlins went away for good without replacing any harnesses. Just something to keep in mind, good luck.

Thanks, good info.
by any chance is there a diagram of all the ground locations? I’ll be honest, tracking down wiring/electrical issues not a strength of mine.

 

[GS650GL]

Thanks, good info.
by any chance is there a diagram of all the ground locations? I’ll be honest, tracking down wiring/electrical issues not a strength of mine.

I'm not aware of a diagram showing ground locations. A wiring schematic is hard to find also. Dealers don't get printed service manuals either, they can only get online service manuals on the LS dealer portal. These online schematics have very tiny print and are very hard to read. If you try to enlarge them, they get blurry and if you can print them, they are even more blurry. A schematic won't show where the internal harness splices are located anyway. The external grounds are on the negative battery cable, on the firewall behind the engine, on the engine block, under the dash, and on cab models under the right control console, under the roof, and on the A/C compressor mounting bracket. All my external grounds were good but it was the ground wire splices inside the harness that were bad. No way to know where in the harness unless you cut the outer covering off the harness to expose the wires which would be ridiculous and impractical. Thats why I took a shortcut and tapped into the ground wire under the dash and added my own extra ground after finding high resistance between that ground wire and actual battery ground.

 

[Supraman0614]

I had issues very similar to the ones you describe on my XR4145. I cleaned and retightened all of the grounds, changed the fuel filter, bled the system, etc. I got no lights or codes either until it went into limp mode several times. It stalled on me several times when I was trying to limp it back to the barn. The next day, it seemed to be fine, so I resuming mowing. That lasted about 15 minutes, and started having issues again. Took it to the dealer (luckily I was not quite at the end of my warranty), and it ended up being a bad hand throttle on the dash. It wasn't communicating properly with the ECU, so the ECU didn't know what the engine speed was, and put it in limp mode. They are available from Messicks as a New Holland part. I think I looked mine up and it was ~$250 or so. Haven't had any issues since.

 

[sodamo]

Thanks, guys
I do have the digital manual, got it from dealer when purchased. Honestly it can be as frustrating as helpful at times.

I read somewhere else about possible throttle issue. No info on how to test.
A difference yesterday. Previously was using the ESC switch as I normal do when mowing. Yesterday I was using just hand throttle.

Still awaiting tech reply from LS.

 

[sodamo]

Abit of followup

Didn’t make much headway poking around. Eventually did hear from LS tech whose final recommendation was they needed the computer codes, so take to Dealer.
Dropped off at dealer 80 miles away. They have only had LS a couple years. service tech told me most jobs were a learning experience. Hoping I get diagnosis soon.

 

[Williy]

Did you say the electrical system was going crazy?? I would
check all wires attached to the brain something must be shorting
out to make all the lights flash etc

willy

 

[sodamo]

I only checked that it was seated, didn’t attempt to follow any leads or remove to check for corrosion. Would expect any issue to be found when tech does a wire test.

 

[sodamo]

Tractor has been at dealer 2 weeks.

GOOD MORNING DAVID,

I HAVE DRIVEN THE UNIT AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE ISSUE. I HAVE ALSO STARTED AND LET RUN NUMEROUS TIMES WITH NO STALLING. I WILL RUN THE UNIT AT SOME POINT TODAY TO TRY AND GET IT TO REPEAT THE ISSUES YOU ARE HAVING.

THANKS, SHAWN

Not encouraging and confirms my biggest concern, being able to duplicate issue. I can’t believe it self healed on the 80 mile trailer ride.

 

[riptides]

Tractor has been at dealer 2 weeks.

GOOD MORNING DAVID,

I HAVE DRIVEN THE UNIT AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE ISSUE. I HAVE ALSO STARTED AND LET RUN NUMEROUS TIMES WITH NO STALLING. I WILL RUN THE UNIT AT SOME POINT TODAY TO TRY AND GET IT TO REPEAT THE ISSUES YOU ARE HAVING.

THANKS, SHAWN

Not encouraging and confirms my biggest concern, being able to duplicate issue. I can’t believe it self healed on the 80 mile trailer ride.

Sounds like what I go through.

Had an issue with my ZTR stalling....turned out to be sediment in the fuel line that would of course back itself out of the way during diags and refills. Ended up disassembling the whole fuel system and cleaned the tank out too.

I am hoping you have a positive outcome, soonest.

 

[sodamo]

Thanks, Mike
Had that problem with the BX, so naturally I thought maybe same with the LS. I really think I purged that tank and lines well.
While I have been concerned that issue is not duplicatable, actually it is in sense it happens every time I use the tractor, just I’m not sure the why. Thinking it maybe need a ‘load’.

 

[sodamo]

Still no joy. Am emailing below to the Dealer tech and LS tech. Hopefully it will trigger a solution. Frustrating.

“Shawn,
If you would indulge me a bit.
Although you have not been able to replicate the stalling issue I am 99.99% confident that after we have given up and I made another 160 mile trip to retrieve the issue will occur my very first use. Confident because it has my every use last couple of months. This being true, I guess the issue can be replicated. Wonder if being under load is somehow a factor? If this is the situation is there a way I can be more helpful?

Perhaps, if I review the situation, your reading might trigger a thought, solution. I say this because I just had it happen with a friend. He had a problem, asked my advise, I made most obvious, simple suggestion and he was stunned it had never occurred to him as he was focused on a more complicated solution. His wife laughed, but in a good way.

I am ccing the LS factory tech and perhaps you might choose to share with anyone you might feel helpful.

My very limited diesel experience says there are 2 ways to stop the engine, fuel or air. I have done both manually on another unit so a bit familiar in that the stoppage sounds abit different. In this case, I suspect fuel starvation, but could be wrong. I believe that my tractor is designed to quit via fuel control, electrically triggered.

So at this point:
1. There are no computer codes, nothing to indicate a problem that triggers a sensor. Would mean bad sensor or just a problem not monitored by a sensor? Is there a way to monitor for next event?
2. All the wiring harnesses pass inspection, no shorts, open circuits, bare/broken/loose wires, bad grounds, corroded contacts, etc. battery is good, assume alternator is functioning. Relays? ECU or ECU harness?
3. Fuel delivery appears ok or at least not a permanent issue. Fuel filter has been changed, fuel filter sensor has been replaced. Fuel tank and hoses purged, new fuel cap, fresh fuel. What I haven’t done is any check of fuel pump or other mechanical part aspects of fuel delivery. I have experienced a pump failure on a diesel generator, but it was total, not intermittent. Replaced pump and fixed. There is now a fuel level indicator error, reads Empty. I did NOT remove the tank for cleaning, simply flushed several times, last time with plain diesel to be sure no moisture. I also blew the hoses with air. I suppose there could be a foreign object the causes a temporary blockage. It was suggested to run via external tank but haven’t attempted yet. I initially suspected moisture/foreign matter as I had experienced same with our BX2380. Changing the filters, adding a separator filter, purging tank, fresh fuel and no longer a problem.
4. Air cleaner appears unobstructed.
5. I sometimes think the stalling is temperature related in that unit has to run some time and I think under work load. But for it to restart immediately would suggest that whatever it is cools quickly. The length of time before next stall also appears to be related to time between stall and restart. The longer I wait, the longer it runs, but only minutes before next stall, but likely within 100 feet, so multiple stalls getting back to tractorshed.
6. ESC main switch may not be operating properly. This switch ON and adjusted for PTO speed is my usual mode when using flail. Can this be bypassed?
7. The Hand throttle lever is not responsive when tractor reduces to “limp mode, 1500 rpm” before stalling. This is not the limp mode as reported by code, just a falling off of rpms. It may be responsive after restart. A fellow tractor forum member had his replaced by Dealer to solve stalling problem. I don’t know how to test.
8. Dash indicator lights go into repetitive blinking mode when stall occurs.
9. Stalling instances have occurred with 5 ft flail mower installed. Initial stall usually with mower engaged, but subsequent stalls with mower disengaged.

So, my hope you get to observe issue and solve soon, especially if a warranty issue. If not then I need a better approach for if it comes home as is.”

 

[sodamo]

Well, 10 1/2 weeks at dealer and no joy. Tech for a weak ground and reflashed ECU. Never could replicate problem.
Got it back home, and as I suspected, able to experience problem first hour at work. Seems tractor has to be under load to malfunction. Took about 20 restarts to limp back home. Fortunately, my friend Jim is visiting and got to witness first hand, the main reason I want back from dealer even if not fixed. Jim is your ultimate fix it guy for this kind of stuff. So know he and I can brainstorm.

Possibly good news on my LS tractor though.
I ‘ve always viewed as a complex issue, fuel starvation, somehow with a temperature component, leading to electric chaos. Could ECU be suspect? My wallet hoped not and tech reflashed. So with the hood up, Jim and I walked thru. Light bulb moment. What if the ECU was over heating due to its location so near radiator?
View attachment 873118 That could trigger a fuel sensor, it could become progressively more frequent as the temp went up, recovery would improve as temp normalized, and it could trigger electrical weirdness. Sound reasonable? I’m hopeful.

 

[alexpops]

Are you mowing slopes? Wondering if you're sloshing sediment around enough in the tank to affect the pickup?

 

[sodamo]

Considered that. And yes slopes, but doesn’t matter which way I’m pointed or on the flat. Would that any sediment was removed when I drained and purged the tank. (and messed up the float).

I am more and more convinced it is a temperature issue that is causing ECU to fail, triggering fuel starvation and wonky electrical ad I recently posted.

Plan is today install some sort of 12vdc fan to cool ECU.

If that fails, I also have plan to install an external fuel tank, bypassing everything before filter. But that is a couple weeks away as I will be living for mainland tomorrow.

 

[sodamo]

New video
Some ODBII data
Note EGR fail

 

[Avenger]

Sounds like you may be on to something. You'd think the dealership would have noticed an EGR code. Perhaps not.

 

[jonsstihl]

interesting to note that most dealers don't seem to have dyno's to test tractors under load. That is an interesting diagnostic path and at this point it sounds like it is worth exploring before bypassing the fuel tank. I know water and electricals don't usually mix well but perhaps a damp cloth or towel wrapped around the ECU would be an easier test than rigging up a fan. Kubota's have something up with the injectors that sounds a lot like your problem perhaps LS uses the same injectors. I think it applies to M7060 models and there is a tsb that covers the problem.

Interesting, I didn't think any tractors had OBDII ports on them.