wind generator

[Markpete]

Does anyone has advice/experience with a wind generator? I would like to become greener and I am thinking this would be a way to do it. We live in the country so room is not a problem. Last time I checked our electric company does not have a policy to buyback power yet. My only problem is money but I am thinking that this would pay for itself in the long run. General and brand specific comments appreciated. Researchers, users, and even dealer replies would be welcome. MP

 

[mbohuntr]

Welcome to OTHERPOWER.COM
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/

 

[Doc_Bob]

In Wisconsin, our power company (We Energies) will subsidize an energy survey for wind, solar hot water and PV. I suspect Iowa has something similar. The survey cost me $75.00 dollars.

For wind, I would need a tower at least 125 feet high. At 125 feet, it would not be a tilt tower, so someone (not me ) would have to climb the tower for any repairs. That killed the deal for me.

I did go with solar hot water. Much less money.

Enjoy the journey.
Bob

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

I was at Barnes & Noble the other day and there was a magazine next to the Mother Earth news with an article on home built wind generators - skimed through it and it seemed reasonable, but did not include costs of the kit. That's not the first "build your own" article I've seen, either - google the topic and see what you can find - you may be surprised what's available and what you can do, depending on your terrain and surrounding buildings. Have also looked into a couple of the commercial models, like skystream and whisper - but don't have the $5k it would cost for even a small one.

 

[RonMar]

Wind typically has a very slow payback from what I understand, even in a location with a LOT of steady wind. A survey and accurate wind collection data at your location will tell you just how long it would take to pay off. If you are serious you should put up an annemometer that can record long term wind direction and speed data to a computer. Wind generator systems also require more maintenance. Do you like to climb towers?

Solar PV systems I believe have a more predictable payback and are more commonly recognized. They also work well in a larger number of locations. If it were me, I would start that way while collecting long term wind data. The suppliers for PV are more available so the prices are comming down. Once the PV system is in place, the inverters don't particularly care where they get their DC current from, so wind can be added to this already existing infastructure without too much modification...

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm in the doubter camp on wind energy. Those selling it have allot of great things to say about it, but then all the reviews and tests that I've read on it say that you never make your money back on it and it has to be heavily subsidized by government money for the big farms to even get built. None of them make a profit or generate enough to justify their existence.

Figure out the cost to buy and install the windmill, the cost of batteries and what it will take to connect it all to your house, then determine how much energy that windmill will create compared to what it cost to set it all up, and you will find it very hard to justify the expense. Also take into consideration that windmills only generate electricity during a specific wind speed. Too much wind is just as bad as no wind. If it's not blowing at the rite speed, nothing happens.

Then there is maintenance. Some wind farms cost more to maintain then they generate. They never earn back their initial cost, but continue to cost more money in keeping them working.

There are other ways to save energy and create energy. Wind isn't one that I like because of all the expense and upkeep on it without any measurable return.

Eddie

 

[Doc_Bob]

Everyone talks about pay back with renewable energy (RE). I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Really wrong. Let me explain.

When you buy a refrigerator, or a hot water heater, or a furnace, or new truck, do you look at pay back? Nope. But when you buy a PV system, everyone talks about pay back. Seems odd to me. I know I am going against the grain here, but worth the thought.


My hot water heater makes hot water and lasts 10 years. What is the pay back on that system?

I look at a PV system in terms of return on investment (ROI), not pay back. I think you should look at any RE based upon ROI.

When you consider ROI, take a look at what the system will be worth. Assume you install a big 5 KW PV system. Cost 45K (rough guess). Do you want a 5% return? 10% return? Can you get 2,250 dollars of value every year? That is a 5% return. Or do you demand a 10% return of 4,500 dollars a year?

Keep in mind, after 10 years of use that 45K system is till worth 45K, if not more. And, at 5% return, you have made 22,500 dollars. This assumes the cost of power stays the same (anyone believe that??? ).

And, the best thing about this 5% ROI, is that it is not taxed!!!!!!!!!!!! So maybe we are looking at 7% return??? Unlike other investments, this is tax free. And the 45K is not part of your property tax burden (the tax law exempts it).

Then we have Federal tax credits and in many states, rebates.

So, when someone tells you about pay back, think about it differently.

One caveat, this assumes you plan on living in your location for a decade.

If the buyer of your home sees value in your PV system, life is great!
If the buyer does not want it, then sell your wind genny or PV system. There will be plenty of buyers!


I know I have made a lot of assumptions. Just think about it.


Bob


PS Let the replies start!

 

[Doc_Bob]

There are other ways to save energy and create energy.

Insulation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

 

[Dunham Farm]

I'm off the grid my house but the farm not. Go to this sight and look at this forum. Solar Electric Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin
lot of junk out there as wind turbine go, you will get at alot at this sight.
Brian

 

[IXLR8]

I have done PV and Wind generation compairisons. For my area, wind is the better way to go. With this caveat, the power is sync'ed to the incoming power, so if wind generates more than you are using.. it is fed back into the grid and the power company pays you for the power. Which is the case where I live.

If you go battery storage/inverter route... all bets are off and wind costs skyrocket. Wind is now in the same area as the PV's and doesn't have a good ROI or payback.

The system I am considering, assuming gov assistance, assuming increased property values (which at present oil prices is not a given), assuming output based on tested wind values, has a payback of 3-4 years. It is the assumptions, not reality, that has me holding off on pulling the trigger on this. The other thing holding me back, is our law says that if the tower falls over... it MUST all stay WITHIN the property lines. No part of it can land on another persons property. My recommended tower height is 60ft, but putting it on the best place on my property puts it too close to my neighbors property, even if it is open field. If I put it where it is 'safe' to do so... I need a minimum of a 100 ft tower to maintain performance numbers, there is a large price jump between a 60ft and 100 ft tower. Most 60ft towers can be dropped for generator maintenance, most 100ft towers need to be climbed... NOT me thank you.
Eddie, you have some good points and folks need to think carefully about them before diving in.

 

[Markpete]

Hmmm very interesting. Maybe PV is a better way to go also the hot water is very interesting to me. This house has an addition that has a concrete floor with water heat in the floor. So this would be somewhat of a natural. We have a LOT of trees around our place so shade might be a problem, but it all is very interesting. Keep the thoughts coming!!!

 

[EddieWalker]

Insulation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

Yes, this is the biggest bang for you buck, but all too often, the one that I see most people ignore. Attic insulation always pays you back in noticeable savings over a very short period of time.

Every house that I sprayed insulation into their attic space had the exact same results. 30 percent less energy use!!!!!!!!!!!

Windows take 20 or more years to pay back the install price.

Buying ways to create your own energy sound real nice, but when you do the math with real numbers, you'll find it's either a very long road to make that money back, or even break even.

Solar for heating water and thermal for heating and cooling the house are proven methods that will save energy, but again, it's a math game. Run the numbers. It works for new construction, but with existing homes, it's not always cost effective.

It's kind of like buying new light bulbs at $5 each to save half a penny a month in energy usage. You are using less energy, but it cost you so much to buy the light bulb that it doesn't make any sense.

There are more scams out there in this whole green energy thing then there are new ideas that actually work. Most of it is just a way for somebody or company to make more money. Those pigtail light bulbs are a very good example. GE and the other light bulb companies are making a killing on selling them. People are throwing away perfectly good light bulbs for these new ones, and then not getting an noticeable savings on their energy usage.

Eddie

 

[Markpete]

Tell me more about the spraying of insulation in the attic. I thought that was mainly for new construction? BTW nice list of goals for 08 hope you're finishing them up today

 

[PILOON]

Well in my municipality there will never be wind generators because one 'smart' city councillor introduced a bill (that passed) banning any towers or structures that would be higher than tree tops.

Came about because a promoter wanted to erect an observation tower for tourist attraction, that coupled with a 'fast overnite' communications tower erection failed to raise enough objections. All done legally!

Also one builder, on a mountain top, clear cut the entire lot in order to enhance his view.
He built a virtual castle that has become an eyesore to most being to how it sits on a big bald spot in middle of town.
When he asked for a permit to cut trees he was refused it and asked what might be the fine. When told $250. he took out his wallet and prepaid the fine. Trees were cut within 24 hours!.

Even a challet or house cannot be higher than sourrounding tree tops and this has killed a fair number of 'rich' construction projects. (read high taxation properties)

 

[RonMar]

Unless you are building all the components yourself, and your own time has no value, I find it hard to believe you will find any alternative energy generation scheme that will pay for itself in 3-4 years, unless it is heavilly subsidised. Perhaps hydro electric if you have a property where you can make this work, as it typically generates 24/7. The payback or ROI on most grid-tied PV setups(installed by contractors) I have looked into is forcast in the 10-20 year range. I remember the numbers because they were in most cases just before the PV panels reach their forcast lifespan...

I am sure some can be saved in doing much of the work yourself. Unfortunatly, a lot of the install work needs to be done, or at the least inspected and signed for by a utility certified technician...

 

[rgood]

Doc Bob - Why does a wind system hold its value? I'd think with changing technology - Companies folding up etc, that they wouldn't. A furnace doesn't hold it's value, a H20 Heater doesn't, a fridge doesn't. Why is it different with wind power?

Everyone talks about pay back with renewable energy (RE). I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Really wrong. Let me explain.

When you buy a refrigerator, or a hot water heater, or a furnace, or new truck, do you look at pay back? Nope. But when you buy a PV system, everyone talks about pay back. Seems odd to me. I know I am going against the grain here, but worth the thought.



PS Let the replies start!

 

[KentT]

A furnace doesn't hold it's value, a H20 Heater doesn't, a fridge doesn't. Why is it different with wind power?

You buy these products because you want the service and benefits that they provide you -- warm water, cool beverages, preventing food spoilage, ice, etc...

What service or benefit does the wind generator provide you other than possibly make noise as the propellor goes whoop, whoop, whoop? It generates some power, but if you're not off the grid, you can get the power needed much cheaper by other means....

Supposedly, PV technology is changing rapidly right now, and the cost MAY drop significantly in the future -- but right now, it's not cost-effective for much of the country...

 

[Doc_Bob]

Doc Bob - Why does a wind system hold its value? I'd think with changing technology - Companies folding up etc, that they wouldn't. A furnace doesn't hold it's value, a H20 Heater doesn't, a fridge doesn't. Why is it different with wind power?

A good wind genny holds it value. And with time, will increase in value based upon simple inflation.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

Y
What service or benefit does the wind generator provide you other than possibly make noise as the propellor goes whoop, whoop, whoop?

Generates power.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

Supposedly, PV technology is changing rapidly right now, and the cost MAY drop significantly in the future -- but right now, it's not cost-effective for much of the country...

"Supposedly" is the key word.

"May" drop is a key word.

If by cost effective, you mean payback, then my previous post still applies.
Bob