wind generator

[MrWoodChips]

It's kind of like buying new light bulbs at $5 each to save half a penny a month in energy usage. You are using less energy, but it cost you so much to buy the light bulb that it doesn't make any sense.

There are more scams out there in this whole green energy thing then there are new ideas that actually work. Most of it is just a way for somebody or company to make more money. Those pigtail light bulbs are a very good example. GE and the other light bulb companies are making a killing on selling them. People are throwing away perfectly good light bulbs for these new ones, and then not getting an noticeable savings on their energy usage.

Eddie

Say you have a 60 watt bulb that is on for 5 hours a day, that can be replaced by a bulb that uses 13 watts. This is a savings of 0.235 kilowatt hours per day. At 15 cents per KWH, this is 3.5 cents a day, or $1.06 per month.

I just checked Amazon.com, who sells a 6 pack of 60 watt replacement bulbs for $19.52. So the bulbs are $3.25 apiece, with a payback time of only 3 months. If the bulb has 8 times the lifetime of an incandescent bulb, then you must also factor in the cost of 8 incandescent bulbs. I don't know about you, but this adds up for me as a worthwhile thing to do.

If you do not use the bulb often, then no, it makes little sense to replace a bulb that is used only once a month for 10 minutes at a time. Wait to replace those bulbs until they die.

John

 

[jim_n_nh]

Somebody has to be first. The first electric plant was not cheap but as it became popular the cost came down. Conservation is the quickest way to save money/energy. For every dollar you spend for conservation (Insulation, bulbs, better fridge, etc) it will save you $3 if you had to purchase the power.

What cost is the war in Iraq, would we be there or in the Middle East if we didn't need the oil. (OK, a really big question I know). If a wind mill comes down does it do as much damage as an oil spill?

This ought to get responses!

Jim

 

[salopez]

I look at it this way....any little bit helps...

Maryland will have rolling blackouts by 2011. If I can power my well and some lights through wind and solar I am all for it...

 

[Doc_Bob]

Say you have a 60 watt bulb that is on for 5 hours a day, that can be replaced by a bulb that uses 13 watts. This is a savings of 0.235 kilowatt hours per day. At 15 cents per KWH, this is 3.5 cents a day, or $1.06 per month.
John

John, 95% of my indoor lights are CFL. My garage lights are cold start fluorescent.

One advantage during the summer with CFL is reduced load on my AC. An incandescent light is just a heater that produces some light. 90% of the power goes to heat production and 10% goes to light. I don't need the heat production during the long hot days of summer.
Bob

 

[EddieWalker]

Say you have a 60 watt bulb that is on for 5 hours a day, that can be replaced by a bulb that uses 13 watts. This is a savings of 0.235 kilowatt hours per day. At 15 cents per KWH, this is 3.5 cents a day, or $1.06 per month.

I just checked Amazon.com, who sells a 6 pack of 60 watt replacement bulbs for $19.52. So the bulbs are $3.25 apiece, with a payback time of only 3 months. If the bulb has 8 times the lifetime of an incandescent bulb, then you must also factor in the cost of 8 incandescent bulbs. I don't know about you, but this adds up for me as a worthwhile thing to do.

If you do not use the bulb often, then no, it makes little sense to replace a bulb that is used only once a month for 10 minutes at a time. Wait to replace those bulbs until they die.

John

I haven't met a person yet who has seen any savings on there energy bill by putting in pigtail light bulbs. Have you done so? and what was your savings in energy usage?

Lots of theory on them, but the reality is that after you spend the money for them, your electric bill will be the same.

A really good example is Al Gore. He replaced all of the lights in his house when it came out how much energy he used in his home. After he did that, plus a few other things, his energy usage actually went up!

Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

Everyone talks about pay back with renewable energy (RE). I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Really wrong. Let me explain.

When you buy a refrigerator, or a hot water heater, or a furnace, or new truck, do you look at pay back? Nope. But when you buy a PV system, everyone talks about pay back. Seems odd to me. I know I am going against the grain here, but worth the thought.


My hot water heater makes hot water and lasts 10 years. What is the pay back on that system?

I look at a PV system in terms of return on investment (ROI), not pay back. I think you should look at any RE based upon ROI.

When you consider ROI, take a look at what the system will be worth. Assume you install a big 5 KW PV system. Cost 45K (rough guess). Do you want a 5% return? 10% return? Can you get 2,250 dollars of value every year? That is a 5% return. Or do you demand a 10% return of 4,500 dollars a year?

Keep in mind, after 10 years of use that 45K system is till worth 45K, if not more. And, at 5% return, you have made 22,500 dollars. This assumes the cost of power stays the same (anyone believe that??? ).

And, the best thing about this 5% ROI, is that it is not taxed!!!!!!!!!!!! So maybe we are looking at 7% return??? Unlike other investments, this is tax free. And the 45K is not part of your property tax burden (the tax law exempts it).

Then we have Federal tax credits and in many states, rebates.

So, when someone tells you about pay back, think about it differently.

One caveat, this assumes you plan on living in your location for a decade.

If the buyer of your home sees value in your PV system, life is great!
If the buyer does not want it, then sell your wind genny or PV system. There will be plenty of buyers!


I know I have made a lot of assumptions. Just think about it.


Bob


PS Let the replies start!

Bob,

I don't think your comparing apples to apples here. He has an energy source already in his house. He's not replacing it, so any investment in modifying what he's already paid for should have some level of return to be beneficial. If you were to compare the same thing with a refrigerator, you would have to replace a perfectly good, working unit with a new one, with the expectations that the new one will save you enough money to justify the expense of buying it as compared to what it cost to run the old one. It would have to be a very old refrigerator to justify buying a new one just for the amount you would save in energy usage.

The same is true for any appliance. If the one you have is working, then replacing it for one that uses less energy only makes sense when you factor in the cost of the replacement unit as compared to the use of energy of the existing unit.

Now if the old unit dies and needs replacing, then I agree with you that there is no reason to factor in a return on your investment because this is something that you have to have.

In your example of the $45,000 PV system, you are making a huge assumption that technology wont make it obsolete, or that it won't wear out over time and need replacing. I also don't know where you came up with your five or ten percent return on it. One of many problems with windmills is the extreme cost of maintenance on them. Dust is a common factor in dealing with the wind, it gets into the bearings and causes the wear. The just plain wear out over a relatively short period of time. If you've seen any windmill farms that are a decade old, you will have noticed some of them that have fallen over, lost their blades, or that don't turn while others are turning. Sometimes the broken ones keep turning until the blades fall off, other times, they lock up and will never turn again.

I'm at a loss to know what modern day appliance, unit, or machine will be worth the same in ten years as it is today? Would you really pay the same price for anything that it sold for new ten years ago? Most stuff has lost its monetary value after five years, what appliance, tool or I guess anything can you sell in your home that's ten years old for what you paid for it?

The tax credits make allot of sense if you need to replace something. If you don't, but just want to upgrade, or save on your energy usage, then calculating those credits into the equation becomes even more important when deciding if it's a smart financial move. If you lose money by doing so, then I will always recommend against such a decision.

Having said all that, I have clients who want to do these things all the time. New windows, doors, lights and appliances. I tell them that the savings will not equal what the spend on the new stuff, but that it will look nicer and if they want it, I'm more then willing to do it for them. Most door and window jobs are more for looks anyway. Very few pick them out on what has the highest R Value or energy savings. They buy because it looks nice.

Eddie

 

[HappyCPE]

Eddie, its hard to do a direct calculation on energy reduction since every day/week/month usage patterns change. However, I replaced the "top 12" light bulbs with CFL's in my house about a year ago. Since then I can show about a 5-10% reduction in power consumption based on my billing. Not to suggest a reduction in billing $, JCP&L raised rates so I only managed to stand my ground.

I think people replace all of their bulbs, and that's a mistake. The initial cost is too high and the payback too small as you noted. The trick is to identify the most-used light sources and replace them. Also, the state of NJ subsidizes the cost of CFL's [using a surcharge buried in our electric bill - imagine that] so that makes the equasion a bit better.

Anyway I'm sitting here in the cold, listening to the winds howling, thinking about a windmill....

 

[MrWoodChips]

I haven't met a person yet who has seen any savings on there energy bill by putting in pigtail light bulbs. Have you done so? and what was your savings in energy usage?
Eddie

I just got done explaining that. If you want, there are many people who have done detailed studies of their electricity usage. There are also inexpensive monitors that you can buy (roughly $25 when I just looked) to check the energy usage of any appliance that you are interested in. These monitors can give you a detailed cost for anything you can plug into it.

P3 - Kill A Watt

Did I bother to check my electric bill for the decrease as I replaced one bulb at a time? No. Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than to plot and analyze a trend-line of my electricity usage. Plus I'm not so paranoid that I believe the company that builds the bulbs has lied about the electric usage of the bulbs they sell. Of course, they would have to be in on the lie with a variety of agencies who have tested the bulbs to verify that energy usage.

Feel free to live in your paranoia and conspiracy theories.

John

 

[Doc_Bob]

Lots of theory on them, but the reality is that after you spend the money for them, your electric bill will be the same.

Eddie, there is a device called kill a watt. P3 - Kill A Watt

I got mine from the library (you can check them out for a week).

The CFL saved the money they said they did. I did not record the results, as the kill a watt showed a reduction. Never thought it would be necessary.

Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

Did I bother to check my electric bill for the decrease as I replaced one bulb at a time?

I know when I installed new windows, I never recorded the benefit. But, my wife (a very reliable meter) reminded me I don't wear my hat, long johns, gloves and UGGS anymore since it is soooo much warmer.

Guess my wife is good enough ?
Bob

 

[MossRoad]

The trick is to identify the most-used light sources and replace them.

That's what I am experimenting with. I have a back porch light that is on 24/7. I had a 40W bulb in there and it would croak about every month or two. So I replaced it with a 13W CFL. I wrote the date on the side of it with a marker. I just went out and looked. 9/6/2008. So, it has lasted longer than any incandescent bulb so far and used 70% less energy.

40W x 24H x 90D = 89400w or 89kwh x $0.11kwh = $9.79 to run that bulb for 90 days.

13W x 24H x 90D = 28080w or 28kwh x $0.11kwh = $3.08 to run that bulb for 90 days.

I saved $6.71 in three months in electricity on one bulb.
Subtract the cost of the bulb... about $2.00 and add in the price of the two incandescent bulbs I would have used, about $1.00 and I still came out over $5.00 ahead in three months, or $20.00 in a year (or more if the CFL lasts longer). That is a significant savings on just one light bulb that is run 24/7.

Lights that only run a few hours a day will take much longer to get payback and that is only if the CFL can take the on-off cycles which I do not know, yet. I have another in my kitchen and three more in my basement that get on-off a few times a day. I dated them, too and will keep track for myself to see how they compared to the incandescents they replaced.

What I do not like about them is they cannot be used on my dimmers and most of the lights in our house are dimmable. The cost of dimmable CFLs is too much for me right now.

 

[EddieWalker]

I ... Plus I'm not so paranoid that I believe the company that builds the bulbs has lied about the electric usage of the bulbs they sell. Of course, they would have to be in on the lie with a variety of agencies who have tested the bulbs to verify that energy usage.

Feel free to live in your paranoia and conspiracy theories.

John

John,

Might be time for that chill pill. We're just discussing personal observations here. I could care less what you do or believe. Seriously.

No need to get all upset because you can't prove what your savings were when changing light bulbs. If it makes you happy, then that's all that really matters. I'm sticking with regular light bulbs myself because that's what makes me happy. If I believed that I could save money by switching, I'd do so. I don't believe it, so I"m not going to.

I'm also not bringing in poisonous mercury into my home that in some states requires a Haz Mat team to clean your house if you break one. Read the labels, those bulbs are very dangerous if broken. What happens to them when they get thrown away? Can't be good for the environment either.

But back to energy usage. I have a Kill A Watt. Bought it off Amazon last year. Neat little device and fun to see what the actual usage is of the stuff that I have that plugs in.

Eddie

 

[QRTRHRS]

In 1982, while job searching after I got a degree in electronics, I worked with a friend who was selling and installing wind electric generators. Tax credits for energy savings updates were about over which pretty much eliminated his business so I only worked with him about six months. While I do occasionally read a related article, overall I have not kept up with wind generators.

More often than not, what people percieve as a good site is merely ground turbulance. You can find wind info on the internet, etc., but as RonMar suggested, setting up an anemometer is the best way. That in itself can be expensive.

As such, many of the installs we did were not the best for wind. Add to that, one of the systems that we installed turned out to be rather problematic. We did have some Jacobs systems that were well sited and were returning on their investment. The Jacobs was a pretty well engineered machine too.

By the way, one of the Jacobs systems we serviced was not one we had installed. The site had good wind but was also prone to lightning strikes. During a dry spell, the tower lost it's ground. It had been tied to the well casing but the water level dropped down to bedrock. During a strike, with no ground, the electronics got "blasted".

It was interesting work by the way. We did the entire install, including tower assembly and install. Our lowest towers were 80 feet plus the height of the generator, the highest around 140 feet. We had residential and municiple units installed. To my knowledge, no one ever climbed the towers besides us. Most people even in good shape quickly find themselves out of breath when they are not used to climbing a tower before they get to far up anyway.

We had no battery systems. All ours worked with the grid and would not operate during times of power outages by the way. The rate that the utlity companies pay you is less than what you pay them. Anyone contemplating a system should first get in touch with their supplier and have a discussion with the engineers. That may not be a bad idea with PV cells as well.

Like I said, I do not keep up with the field but there are a lot of big machines going up around the country. Some pretty big companies must believe that money can be made?

For most of us on the grid though, I think PV's, solar hot water or structural upgrades are more realistic. If I had a tower, I would also be looking for someone to install cell phone or some other communication devices on it as well for the additional income.

 

[Doc_Bob]

If I had a tower, I would also be looking for someone to install cell phone or some other communication devices on it as well for the additional income.

Great idea.
Bob

 

[jim_n_nh]

When I built the house I live in, I walked the talk. Above ground it is made of structual insulated panels, below ground the entire foundation is insulated with 2" of rigid insulation. The top level is earthbermed four feet on the north and west side. I heat the 1744 feet upstairs and 912" feet downstairs with a single woodstock soapstone woodstove. Last year I burnt 2 1/2 cords of wood or about $400 to heat for the year. I live 8 miles from Manchester, NH.

All the lights are CFL's. At the 8 year mark, one failed. All appliances were the best in class as far as energystar ratings. Currently we are trying to replace the gas fired hotwater tank with an on demand type. When the icestorm hit two weeks ago my house never went below 67.

Jim

 

[Doc_Bob]

When I built the house I live in, I walked the talk.

Jim, you are living my dream. Keep up the good work.
Bob

PS Love to see photos.

 

[Eagleview]

I think if you were handy and could find a used water windmill at a reasonable cost and had an open area with enough wind to turn it . You could easily adapt a belt driven 160 amp truck alternator to it . A large pulley on the fan shaft and a small one on the self exciting alt . The deep cycle batteries would need to be at the base of the tower as DC does not reticulate well . If you were energy concious like we are and used low energy appliances it would work . PV cells are a more reliable source though , as said they could be combined later .

 

[Scooby074]

Moss, your calculations are accurate. Less watts used = Lower power bills. Its not a conspiracy its a pretty solid electrical theory. I noticed that Ireland (correct me if im wrong) has outlawed all incandescent bulbs by next year i believe.
On a related note, i noticed that Home Depot is selling 12V LED MR16's. If i remember they were around $20. I believe high power LED is the future of lighting. Extremely long life and very low power consumption.Once Walmart starts selling 120V LED's (within 5 years i'll bet) for $6.99 nobody will be buying CF bulbs. CF bulbs are great for now and certainly better than incandescent, but i have yet to see one last as long as the package says and theres also the mercury issues.

Heres a link to a guy that builds and sells 12 and 24V windmills based on a GM alternator that would be excellent for a remote camp or boat. default 20080213

 

[QRTRHRS]

When I built the house I live in, I walked the talk. Above ground it is made of structual insulated panels, below ground the entire foundation is insulated with 2" of rigid insulation. The top level is earthbermed four feet on the north and west side. I heat the 1744 feet upstairs and 912" feet downstairs with a single woodstock soapstone woodstove. Last year I burnt 2 1/2 cords of wood or about $400 to heat for the year. I live 8 miles from Manchester, NH.

All the lights are CFL's. At the 8 year mark, one failed. All appliances were the best in class as far as energystar ratings. Currently we are trying to replace the gas fired hotwater tank with an on demand type. When the icestorm hit two weeks ago my house never went below 67.

Jim

Sounds pretty neat. Tell us some more if you don't mind? What style is the house? Did you use SIP's for the roof as well? What is the foundation construction? Do you have some kind of air to air heat exchanger for refreshing the air?

 

[Doc_Bob]

On a related note, i noticed that Home Depot is selling 12V LED MR16's.

The LEDS lights look very nice. I saw some at Sams.
Bob