Why Diesel???

[twodogs]

Getting slightly off topic, drive a Chevy Silverado 2007 or 2008 model before you decide on a Tundra. The improvement is amazing.

You have got to be kidding me - Chevy vs. Tundra???
Reliability? Safety? Fit? Finish? TUNDRA!

 

[RollingsFarms]

You have got to be kidding me - Chevy vs. Tundra???
Reliability? Safety? Fit? Finish? TUNDRA!

the new Tundra's have had more then their fare share of first year problems from what i've read. owners claim of numerous problems from the 6-speed auto tranny, interier fit and finish not up to par and showing premature wear, not so wonderful gas mileage. check out the tundra truck forums on the internet, you'll read many complaints of a not so comparable truck compared to GM's newest version of the Silverado.

 

[Renze]

You mean the same "Bosch" that makes the injectors on the Duramax diesel that have failed by the hundreds of thousands? Those Bosch injectors?

jb

Isnt the Duramax built by Isuzu ? and doesnt Isuzu use Nippon Denso injection, like most Japanese brands ??

 

[Z-Michigan]

You have got to be kidding me - Chevy vs. Tundra???
Reliability? Safety? Fit? Finish? TUNDRA!

You're right, I am kidding. No way Toyota can catch up with GM.

Seriously, though, GM quality has improved by leaps and bounds. I have owned two Hondas and a Toyota. None was perfect; one Accord, a 2001 purchased brand new, was actually pretty bad in terms of problems (driver seat broke and had to be replaced at 12k miles, and the transmission failed, disabled the car and had to be replaced at 25k problems, and there were a number of minor issues too). Hond had so many transmission failures with Accords that year they had to extend the transmission warranty to 100k miles. The Toyota Corolla I had was a 1992 and was fairly reliable for what it was, but was absurdly under-engineered with tiny, tiny tires, poor brakes, sloppy suspension (worse than an 80's Buick), no real safety features, steel wheels that peeled their paint and then rusted, bad seat belt location, and a few other minor things. It was reliable basic transportation, but it definitely wasn't the best car ever made.

I just bought a Chevy Suburban (literally last night) and the quality and design is really, really impressive. If you haven't looked at what GM is making these days, you should. Their products are highly competitive.

My dad owns a first gen Toyota Tundra. It has been pretty good, but far from perfect. The brakes have been worked on by the dealer 3 times while it was still under warranty, and I understand brake problems were common with the first gen Tundra. He also had the 4wd mode switch fail, which was also replaced under warranty. Stock suspension was very soft, though my dad put in better shocks when the originals wore out. No one close to me owns the 2008 Tundra but I certainly have read enough about problems with them. Plus my dad liked gen 1 because it was 90% size and very convenient. Gen 2 is 101% size and not so convenient.

 

[Rara Avis]

Gee Toyota has joined the Big Three in lobbying Congress to raise
CAFE numbers...Who would have thought it so...
Toyota joins Detroit 3 in CAFE fight - AutoWeek

 

[Kendrick]

I have noticed only 1 mention of this point so far. B100 or svo will kick a gasser any day! The average cpg of B100 if you make it is 60-70 cents! If you pay uncle sam jr for road repairs it goes up to about 1.5 to 2$ depending on the local fuel taxes. you then can apply for 3-5k? of tax rebates from the feds and possibly as much from state for going green. with svo it is about 5 cents or less due to the need for the first and last mile to be on diesel if you use B100 insed it drops.

as for the running of them the diesel kills a gasser for the heavy duty jobs. you can also get a mini diesel monkey with gears till you get it right and the mpg goes way up for a compactish car.

as for the comment that you pay it back in oil/repairs. like any purchace you MUST!!!!!!!! know what you are getting before hand other wise you get sawdust in the tranny and a green complexion for the brilliance. we spend probably 10X the work most people do before getting something. if we chose it 99.9% of the time no matter how old it is we still have it, in use and have no regrets other then not getting two of them or going for the delux model...

in 3 years time I will be all B100 the only thing on the farm that wont be will be my trimmer and the 2 motercycles that came with the property. we will toy with them and see what we can do about building somthing usefull from the parts...

 

[Rara Avis]

Biodiesel

What is a biodiesel blend?
In most cases, biodiesel is mixed with conventional diesel because of the higher cost of biodiesel, engine compatibility issues, and cold weather operating concerns. Common blends are B20, or 20% biodiesel and B2, or 2% biodiesel. The environmental benefits of using biodiesel scales with the percent of biodiesel contained in the blend.

B100 100% biodiesel offers the most overall environmental benefits. Use of B100 may require engine or fuel system component modification and can cause operating problems, especially in cold weather.
B20 20% biodiesel offers about one fifth of the environmental benefits of B100, but can be more broadly applied to existing engines with little or no modification.
B2 2% biodiesel offers little environmental or petroleum dependence benefit and could be potentially used an environmental marketing tool.

What are the main issues when switching from conventional diesel to biodiesel?

The main operating issues are cold weather operability, engine and fuel system compatibility, and the solvency properties of biodiesel. B100 does not flow as well as petroleum diesel in cold temperatures, and requires special additives or fuel heating systems to operate in colder climates. B100 may cause rubber seals and gaskets from engines older than 1994 to wear faster or fail. Biodiesel also acts as a solvent, which can dissolve sediments in diesel fuel tanks and clog fuel filters during an initial transition from petroleum diesel. Despite these issues, some fleets are successfully using B100. Berkeley, California is successfully running 100% biodiesel in 90% of their public diesel fleet vehicles including fire trucks.1 Using B20 minimizes or eliminates most of the concerns with B100 and is therefore more widely used.

 

[Kendrick]

you missed the lubricity issue on a nice summary of Bio. The lubricity if Bio is immensly higher then dino diesel. there was a nice study listed in the diesel additive thread before it got roudy

The seals on your tractor are valid if they are natural rubber i believe. there was reports of the fuel pumps being pitted and destroyed by bio. I had never heard if a definitive study had been done or not. the general fealing I had heard was that was a rumor, it did how ever do a good job of wearing the seals on them if they had rubber parts. I will be doing some tests this winter about B100 and additives and plan to post when done. DP's fuel additives are rated for both dino and bio. PS needs like 3x as much when using B20+

 

[john_bud]

isn't that a bit of a stretch of the imagination

This was in regard to my comment about "hundreds of thousands" of Bosch injectors failing.


Actually, it's a modest number.

200,000 injectors is 25,000 sets.

Duramax's with the injector issues have been the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 models. There have been 7 years of operation for the first ones.

25,000 / 7 = 3572 vehicles per year with the issue. Not at all a super high number. I have spoken to individual techs that have done a 100 sets a year.

The problem was so bad that a couple years ago, GM changed the fuel filter adding a second pleat and reducing the beta from 10 micron to 2 micron. They even gave a "free" filter to ensure you got the new version. Think they are big hearted or trying to stop the bleeding?


Naturally, only GM knows the true number but they are not talking....

jb

 

[twodogs]

You're right, I am kidding. No way Toyota can catch up with GM.

Seriously, though, GM quality has improved by leaps and bounds. I have owned two Hondas and a Toyota. None was perfect; one Accord, a 2001 purchased brand new, was actually pretty bad in terms of problems (driver seat broke and had to be replaced at 12k miles, and the transmission failed, disabled the car and had to be replaced at 25k problems, and there were a number of minor issues too). Hond had so many transmission failures with Accords that year they had to extend the transmission warranty to 100k miles. The Toyota Corolla I had was a 1992 and was fairly reliable for what it was, but was absurdly under-engineered with tiny, tiny tires, poor brakes, sloppy suspension (worse than an 80's Buick), no real safety features, steel wheels that peeled their paint and then rusted, bad seat belt location, and a few other minor things. It was reliable basic transportation, but it definitely wasn't the best car ever made.

I just bought a Chevy Suburban (literally last night) and the quality and design is really, really impressive. If you haven't looked at what GM is making these days, you should. Their products are highly competitive.

My dad owns a first gen Toyota Tundra. It has been pretty good, but far from perfect. The brakes have been worked on by the dealer 3 times while it was still under warranty, and I understand brake problems were common with the first gen Tundra. He also had the 4wd mode switch fail, which was also replaced under warranty. Stock suspension was very soft, though my dad put in better shocks when the originals wore out. No one close to me owns the 2008 Tundra but I certainly have read enough about problems with them. Plus my dad liked gen 1 because it was 90% size and very convenient. Gen 2 is 101% size and not so convenient.

Pick up a Consumer Reports & compare the reliability & used cars to avoid for GM vs. Toyota...

My 95 Blazer made 30 trips to the dealer in 30K miles - NO LIE. From spontaneous shutdowns while driving 60mph, failing to start, & 10K mile brakes, to name a few. Every person that I knew that had that vehicle had major problems with it & Chevy turned a blind eye to them. At least Toyota will back & fix a problem that they discover - at least from the experience that I have had & the owners that I have spoken with. They fixed my AC on my Tacoma with 90K miles on it. I now own an '06 Tundra. GM - General Mess. Maybe in 10 years I will buy one, but not yet... Toyota will be number 1 in the world soon, & it isn't by accident.

 

[ihookem]

Twodogs, you should have taken the truck back the after a few months. Why did you go back 30 times????? Also, this was a 95 year. In 1995 Toyota was not nearly as good as it is today and can find similar stories about Toyotas made in 95. You seem to compare 1995 trucks to 2006 trucks, not fair at all. I have an 05 GMC diesel pickup and no problems yet at all. At 74k miles not one problem. Here is a statistic from last year on problems with autos. The first three years the average Japanese car had 2.08 problems per car the first three years. Not bad. The average American car had 2.43 problems , and the average German auto had 2.7 problems per car. I see this prejudice with American cars all the time. They have a bad reputation that won't go away. The Germans have a good rep but the cars are more money with more problems but we hear nothing about them being junk. They're not junk but much more money, and the Japanese cars are more money too. If anyone jumps in a new GM pickup and takes it for a drive and picks it apart is not being honest . They are very good trucks. I have rode in Tundras and seem real good but not anything superior to mine.

 

[mjncad]

My 95 Blazer made 30 trips to the dealer in 30K miles - NO LIE. From spontaneous shutdowns while driving 60mph, failing to start, & 10K mile brakes, to name a few. Every person that I knew that had that vehicle had major problems with it & Chevy turned a blind eye to them. At least Toyota will back & fix a problem that they discover - at least from the experience that I have had & the owners that I have spoken with. They fixed my AC on my Tacoma with 90K miles on it. I now own an '06 Tundra. GM - General Mess. Maybe in 10 years I will buy one, but not yet... Toyota will be number 1 in the world soon, & it isn't by accident.

I had an '83 S-10 pickup with that mutt with fleas V-6 and I called that POS truck the "Vega Incarnate" amongst other things. That S-10 is what soured me on GM (General Mediocrity) for good, and I grew up a GM man.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Pick up a Consumer Reports & compare the reliability & used cars to avoid for GM vs. Toyota...

I did, actually. The Tahoe and Suburban score very well, as well as many Toyotas. The full size pickups also score well, and whether you go by Consumer Reports or my dad's experience, the Tundra isn't perfect either. I don't dislike Toyota, I just think that there is an artificially high opinion of them among much of the country and it isn't deserved. GM made some not so great stuff in the 80's and 90's, but so did Toyota. I know, I OWNED one of those Toyota not so great cars. Would I buy a Toyota again? Probably. Would I prefer it over GM? Not necessarily (and clearly I didn't in my recent purchase).

Oh, and this is Toyota we're talking about. Many people (not necessarily you) lump all the Japanese in the "top quality" category and all US stuff as junk. Look at Consumer Reports reliability for virtually any Nissan or Mitsubishi - terrible. The Nissan Titan and Armada are among the worst vehicles they've seen for reliability. And Honda is a mixed bag.

 

[RobertN]

I had an '83 S-10 pickup with that mutt with fleas V-6 and I called that POS truck the "Vega Incarnate" amongst other things. That S-10 is what soured me on GM (General Mediocrity) for good, and I grew up a GM man.

Interesting. My BIL and I had'84 and '85 S10's 4x4. Our trucks were great, worked off road ok for an IFS, and surprisingly hauled weight very well. that 2.8l V6 was not a powerhouse for sure, but I got decent mileage for poor driving habits. We both sold within three years or so with under 100k miles on each, but not because the truck was bad; we both for various reasons wanted Jeep CJ's(although people do run small 4x4 pickups on Rubicon and other difficult trails, a real CJ is still one of the best hard rock vehicles ever made).

 

[twodogs]

Twodogs, you should have taken the truck back the after a few months. Why did you go back 30 times????? Also, this was a 95 year. In 1995 Toyota was not nearly as good as it is today and can find similar stories about Toyotas made in 95. You seem to compare 1995 trucks to 2006 trucks, not fair at all. I have an 05 GMC diesel pickup and no problems yet at all. At 74k miles not one problem. Here is a statistic from last year on problems with autos. The first three years the average Japanese car had 2.08 problems per car the first three years. Not bad. The average American car had 2.43 problems , and the average German auto had 2.7 problems per car. I see this prejudice with American cars all the time. They have a bad reputation that won't go away. The Germans have a good rep but the cars are more money with more problems but we hear nothing about them being junk. They're not junk but much more money, and the Japanese cars are more money too. If anyone jumps in a new GM pickup and takes it for a drive and picks it apart is not being honest . They are very good trucks. I have rode in Tundras and seem real good but not anything superior to mine.

I did take it back for a variety of problems. I was not eligible for a new vehicle under my state's lemon law (PA). The car was plaqued with SO many different problems.

I admit that the American car companies have improved, as they needed to do so to survive the market. But GM is not on par with Toyota - at least not in my eyes or by using the facts that you provided. The long-term reliability is still not there. You can argue that it is, but the facts don't support the argument. I respectfully disagree with you on the comparison between a new GM & Tundra. I regularly ride in a new GMC Sierra & my 2006 Tundra - I still choose the Tundra for the previously mentioned reasons, plus the overall fit & finish. As far as a diesel goes, it is obvious that GM gets the nod, as Toyota doesn't offer it. I have no need for it at this point in my life, and I doubt that I ever will. If that day comes, I probably will buy the GM. Hopefully GM will surpass Toyota with their overall quality, or at least be on par with them.

I agree that a lot of people generalize & lump Nissan in with the Japanese market, and mistakenly believe that the Germans still make great cars. Again, if people would pick up a Consumer Reports & educate themselves they would be amazed. The Car & Driver/Motor Trend awards are bought, but people still believe & drink the kool-aid.

Now that we have clearly left the subject entirely... Have a great day!

 

[debushau]

Just to throw my 2c in the pile. I bought a Dodge Sprinter in 2004 (a swb, passenger model) mostly because it was about the only small displacement diesel on the market, good mpg, could carry as many people as a minivan, had a decent tow rating and huge payload.

It's basically a Mercedes that's actually assembled by VW and then rebadged as a Dodge! The van bodied trucks have final assembly in the US, the passenger versions are made in Germany. So, I'm not sure if we're talking domestic or import here.

This truck had a plethora of initial quality problems which, to my mind, are not design related. Lots of irritating things, sliding door knocking, squeaky dash, carrier bearings, power steering pump, EGR, leaking fuel filter, etc. It must have spent 1 of the first 6 months of ownership back at the dealer. At that time the dealers did not even have technicians trained to work on these vans! Since then, it's been ok.

I still think the engine and transmission are gems and should last long term. I like the diesel sound and the reliability of an overbuilt diesel. However, with the cost of servicing ($160 for an oil change at the dealer!), the price of diesel and the initial cost of the van it is not an economically sensible proposition unless you run big mileage.

To draw a comparison, I purchased a Honda car around the same time as I bought the Dodge. The Honda had zero initial problems. Over time, however, it has begun to irritate me because (a) I can't find it in a parking lot, (b) electrical gremlins possibly or a design issue, not sure, (c) built from tuna-can thin metal and exterior plastics that scratch and break continously, and (d) product obsolescence. Oddly enough, the Honda has also had higher non-fuel running costs since the Dodge work was covered under warranty and the oil change is only needed once a year (full synthetic with assyst service computer) with the mileage I run.

The interesting observation I would make in all of this is that I moaned and berated the Dodge for initial quality and griped in all the JD Power review materials but it's the vehicle I will keep since it is now "sorted", I still like its utility and distinctiveness and frankly, there is no other small diesel truck on the market yet. Yet I wouldn't buy another one because the dealer could've fixed all of the initial problems without waste a huge amount of my time and creating lots of stress and irritation. If only Honda had assembled the Dodge in the first place, it would have been the ideal combination. Maybe if they drop a diesel in the Ridgeline (and add low range, and put a proper frame on it, etc., etc.) or they can build a Silverado that will do 25 mpg!

 

[twodogs]

Just to throw my 2c in the pile. I bought a Dodge Sprinter in 2004 (a swb, passenger model) mostly because it was about the only small displacement diesel on the market, good mpg, could carry as many people as a minivan, had a decent tow rating and huge payload.

It's basically a Mercedes that's actually assembled by VW and then rebadged as a Dodge! The van bodied trucks have final assembly in the US, the passenger versions are made in Germany. So, I'm not sure if we're talking domestic or import here.

This truck had a plethora of initial quality problems which, to my mind, are not design related. Lots of irritating things, sliding door knocking, squeaky dash, carrier bearings, power steering pump, EGR, leaking fuel filter, etc. It must have spent 1 of the first 6 months of ownership back at the dealer. At that time the dealers did not even have technicians trained to work on these vans! Since then, it's been ok.

I still think the engine and transmission are gems and should last long term. I like the diesel sound and the reliability of an overbuilt diesel. However, with the cost of servicing ($160 for an oil change at the dealer!), the price of diesel and the initial cost of the van it is not an economically sensible proposition unless you run big mileage.

To draw a comparison, I purchased a Honda car around the same time as I bought the Dodge. The Honda had zero initial problems. Over time, however, it has begun to irritate me because (a) I can't find it in a parking lot, (b) electrical gremlins possibly or a design issue, not sure, (c) built from tuna-can thin metal and exterior plastics that scratch and break continously, and (d) product obsolescence. Oddly enough, the Honda has also had higher non-fuel running costs since the Dodge work was covered under warranty and the oil change is only needed once a year (full synthetic with assyst service computer) with the mileage I run.

The interesting observation I would make in all of this is that I moaned and berated the Dodge for initial quality and griped in all the JD Power review materials but it's the vehicle I will keep since it is now "sorted", I still like its utility and distinctiveness and frankly, there is no other small diesel truck on the market yet. Yet I wouldn't buy another one because the dealer could've fixed all of the initial problems without waste a huge amount of my time and creating lots of stress and irritation. If only Honda had assembled the Dodge in the first place, it would have been the ideal combination. Maybe if they drop a diesel in the Ridgeline (and add low range, and put a proper frame on it, etc., etc.) or they can build a Silverado that will do 25 mpg!

Honda will start adding diesels to their lineup next year. It will be in the Accords.

 

[Renze]

It's basically a Mercedes that's actually assembled by VW and then rebadged as a Dodge! The van bodied trucks have final assembly in the US, the passenger versions are made in Germany. So, I'm not sure if we're talking domestic or import here.

Actually its the other way around: Its a Mercedes van (built in a former Hanomag plant) which is also sold by VW with their own engine and a slightly different front.
If you want a transmission PTO on one of these, dont ask VW because they know nothing. MB doesnt tell them everything

 

[artfull dodger]

Time for my 2 cents worth, I have a 1997 6.5L 3/4 ton GMC Suburban, 2wd. The other two engine choices would have been a 454 gasser or a 350. Buddy has the same truck with the 350 gasser, gets 8-10 in town and mid teens on the highway empty. I get mid teens in town and a crack over 22 on the highway. I have the 4l80e trans and 3:73 rears with a locker, his is the 4l60e with 3:73's and limited slip. I grew up on the farm and have been around diesels all my life, the extra maintance, knowing how and when to change fuel filters, bleeding injectors if it runs out of fuel or air locks ect, is second nature to me. Diesels dont need tune ups, no plugs, wires, cap/rotor to change every couple of years. Just keep the filters changed, change the oil and use correct diesel engine oil as needed. The 6.5L needs a set of injectors every 100k and the main IP just after that, new fuel filters in the spring and fall, carry a spare in the console in the winter. I also prefer the smell of diesel fuel or exhaust over gas anyday. I can run from Erie, PA to my folks in Kokomo, IN on one tank of fuel. Happing Dieseling Mike

 

[Z-Michigan]

I know I'm probably beating this to death, but in case anyone missed it, the Toyota Tundra is now rated as below average reliability by Consumer Reports and therefore has been removed from their "recommended" list. Two other Toyotas also got that rating and removal (I think both were Lexus cars but I'd have to check). I guess being #1 is hard, whether you're Toyota or GM.