JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
Oh boy, look out, this thread may have more life in it after all!!!
Who is #1 in compact Tractor sales?
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cstocks
Platinum Member
It is news to me that Kioti is #3 in sales. I don't know where the nearest Kioti dealer is and don't pass by any on my long trips from southeast Texas to South Arkansas. As a matter of fact I couldn't even tell you where a Kioti dealer is located in my area.
As far as choosing a tractor went for me my only consideration was to select one of the "big three." I do a lot of tractor work at my uncle's place in Ark. and the nearest town sells Kubota, JD and NH. I chose to go with NH, although it was a hard choice and there were models offered by JD and Kubota that I also liked. I had to rule out all other brands because the nearest dealer was a minimum of an hour and a half a way and when it came time to buy parts or need repairs I didn't want to have to deal with a long distance dealer.
As far as choosing a tractor went for me my only consideration was to select one of the "big three." I do a lot of tractor work at my uncle's place in Ark. and the nearest town sells Kubota, JD and NH. I chose to go with NH, although it was a hard choice and there were models offered by JD and Kubota that I also liked. I had to rule out all other brands because the nearest dealer was a minimum of an hour and a half a way and when it came time to buy parts or need repairs I didn't want to have to deal with a long distance dealer.
PitbullMidwest
Platinum Member
Kioti #3? No way. Do a search on any engine for a Kioti dealer or call them for a dealer near you and you'll have a hard time finding one. They appear to have a very good product but I don't believe for a second that they are the 3 largest selling compact tractor in the States.
Mahindra's claim that it controls 40% of the US market on 30-55 hp tractors doesn't make it true. Anyone remember this thread? <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=other&Number=97642&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post97642> Mahindra</A>.
The size of Kioti's dealer network alone compared to NH, MF/AGCO or even Case would be a huge obstacle to overcome to be able to climb to #3.
Mahindra's claim that it controls 40% of the US market on 30-55 hp tractors doesn't make it true. Anyone remember this thread? <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=other&Number=97642&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post97642> Mahindra</A>.
The size of Kioti's dealer network alone compared to NH, MF/AGCO or even Case would be a huge obstacle to overcome to be able to climb to #3.
bigpete
Veteran Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
Alright, I'm still looking for the details. I'm not refuting anything or questioning the number 1 position. In fact, I'm sure you are right about Kubota's shooting star. But it seems a bit misleading to state that compact tractor sales are up 8.6 % YTD when that specific data point is for two-wheel drive tractors under 40 hp. Also, in the same table, I see that FWD tractor sales are down almost 23 % for the same period but without any breakout of tractor HP class. And, BTW, what constitutes the "Farm Wheel" tractor class that defines the scope of this study? As a propeller head marketing analysis and numbers guy, I just need more than what I see there (on that one page).
Okay, how did we interpolate the brand statements here? Did I miss a link, or a table, or something? If so, I'll go there and we will all feel better about those strong, and probably correct, statements. My questions are completely out of curiosity and I most certainly don't intend to let such disconnected (from ME) information influence my near-future buying decisions.
I love reading all of this brand pride stuff and subjective quality interpretaion conjecture, BTW. I will add a bit of what I think is objective reasoning and conversational seasoning (that rhymes!) to the quality-to-retail-sales-level relationship discussion:
Assuming that retail sales is directly correlative to quality, as some of you espouse (and I will add that I think it is indirect and only contributory instead of exlcusive), I pose this question: When a product loses market share as a result of a quality issue, or perhaps as a result of a perceived quality issue, and said company rectifies the issue in a timely manner, how much time will elapse before retail sales levels reflect the turn-around in quality?
Answer: That depends. If we are talking hamburgers and McDonalds is busted selling e-coli burgers that hospitalize a few hundred senior citizens, they will likely (could possibly) be more timely in turning around the sales drop "echo" than, say, a company manufacturing mining equipment, or airplanes, or dump trucks, or even compact tractors. Give this a little thought and consider that quality-related recovery trends must be much slower, according to basic laws of economics, for big-ticket durable goods that are replaced infrequently. If Mahindra blasts their way into the top quality or price/value spot in the next six months, most all of you magnificent afficianados will adopt the quality product based on the obsolescence or upgrade schedule for the machine you own, not on the identification of competitive advantage. Sure, the new knowledge might escalate the discussions with our collective spouses, but most of us cannot afford to respond in the form of a retail transaction for a considerable amount of time. Heck, I've known for a year-and-a-half that I need a bigger machine and new product offerings keep muddying my decision process.
On the other side of this discussion, you might be back at Mickie D's after the e-coli debacle fades if they start offering $1 half-pound USDA certified Black Angus burgers grilled over mesquite by ******-clad, 21-year-old, super-model health inspectors (females, of course) /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
I gotta' stop here. Obviously it's lunch time if I'm using food analogies to discuss tractor quality and market share issues /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif.
Alright, I'm still looking for the details. I'm not refuting anything or questioning the number 1 position. In fact, I'm sure you are right about Kubota's shooting star. But it seems a bit misleading to state that compact tractor sales are up 8.6 % YTD when that specific data point is for two-wheel drive tractors under 40 hp. Also, in the same table, I see that FWD tractor sales are down almost 23 % for the same period but without any breakout of tractor HP class. And, BTW, what constitutes the "Farm Wheel" tractor class that defines the scope of this study? As a propeller head marketing analysis and numbers guy, I just need more than what I see there (on that one page).
Okay, how did we interpolate the brand statements here? Did I miss a link, or a table, or something? If so, I'll go there and we will all feel better about those strong, and probably correct, statements. My questions are completely out of curiosity and I most certainly don't intend to let such disconnected (from ME) information influence my near-future buying decisions.
I love reading all of this brand pride stuff and subjective quality interpretaion conjecture, BTW. I will add a bit of what I think is objective reasoning and conversational seasoning (that rhymes!) to the quality-to-retail-sales-level relationship discussion:
Assuming that retail sales is directly correlative to quality, as some of you espouse (and I will add that I think it is indirect and only contributory instead of exlcusive), I pose this question: When a product loses market share as a result of a quality issue, or perhaps as a result of a perceived quality issue, and said company rectifies the issue in a timely manner, how much time will elapse before retail sales levels reflect the turn-around in quality?
Answer: That depends. If we are talking hamburgers and McDonalds is busted selling e-coli burgers that hospitalize a few hundred senior citizens, they will likely (could possibly) be more timely in turning around the sales drop "echo" than, say, a company manufacturing mining equipment, or airplanes, or dump trucks, or even compact tractors. Give this a little thought and consider that quality-related recovery trends must be much slower, according to basic laws of economics, for big-ticket durable goods that are replaced infrequently. If Mahindra blasts their way into the top quality or price/value spot in the next six months, most all of you magnificent afficianados will adopt the quality product based on the obsolescence or upgrade schedule for the machine you own, not on the identification of competitive advantage. Sure, the new knowledge might escalate the discussions with our collective spouses, but most of us cannot afford to respond in the form of a retail transaction for a considerable amount of time. Heck, I've known for a year-and-a-half that I need a bigger machine and new product offerings keep muddying my decision process.
On the other side of this discussion, you might be back at Mickie D's after the e-coli debacle fades if they start offering $1 half-pound USDA certified Black Angus burgers grilled over mesquite by ******-clad, 21-year-old, super-model health inspectors (females, of course) /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
I gotta' stop here. Obviously it's lunch time if I'm using food analogies to discuss tractor quality and market share issues /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif.
Buster57
Platinum Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
There is a difference between Tylenol and Kubota.
It is easy to change loyalty on a $2. hamburger but $20,000 is an investment.
If there is a quality problem with a complex mechanical device then we tend to deal with it. If the problem is recurring or the frequency of different problems starts to increase(lemon?), then we tend to consider changing brands. But the discomfort level has to be very significant because people tend to re-sell themselves on major purchases.
There is a difference between Tylenol and Kubota.
It is easy to change loyalty on a $2. hamburger but $20,000 is an investment.
If there is a quality problem with a complex mechanical device then we tend to deal with it. If the problem is recurring or the frequency of different problems starts to increase(lemon?), then we tend to consider changing brands. But the discomfort level has to be very significant because people tend to re-sell themselves on major purchases.
bigpete
Veteran Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
You are right...lot's of factors are involved. Now that I've had my lunch, I'll close out my point.
A few posts implied that this past year's retail sales levels are directly related to current machine quality, which I can only partly accept and cannot embrace. Last year's sales reflect the perceptions of product quality that was formed over many, many prior months of information intake or use by the consumer and may not...MAY not...reflect the actual contemporary quality levels of the product being sold and purchased today. Last years sales data reflect quality issues that most likely happend two years ago or may even have surfaced several years ago /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif ! The model you scorn today for having had a faulty deflugenator valve may now have the best deflugenator system known to Mankind!
Yes, Tylenol and Kubota are different in so many ways. That's why a try to relate earth movers and people movers. Perhaps J.'s earlier comparison of Pintos, Vegas, and more importantly, his better-half's miscreant Jeep, have greater relevancy to this topic.
Alright, now to my point with more clarity....the JD's and Kubotas sitting on showroom floors TODAY are unlikely to perfectly reflect and directly match their respective perceived quality. The machine you buy may not be the machine you think you know, for better or worse.
Now I need a Tylenol. Hopefully the seal on the bottle is intact...
You are right...lot's of factors are involved. Now that I've had my lunch, I'll close out my point.
A few posts implied that this past year's retail sales levels are directly related to current machine quality, which I can only partly accept and cannot embrace. Last year's sales reflect the perceptions of product quality that was formed over many, many prior months of information intake or use by the consumer and may not...MAY not...reflect the actual contemporary quality levels of the product being sold and purchased today. Last years sales data reflect quality issues that most likely happend two years ago or may even have surfaced several years ago /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif ! The model you scorn today for having had a faulty deflugenator valve may now have the best deflugenator system known to Mankind!
Yes, Tylenol and Kubota are different in so many ways. That's why a try to relate earth movers and people movers. Perhaps J.'s earlier comparison of Pintos, Vegas, and more importantly, his better-half's miscreant Jeep, have greater relevancy to this topic.
Alright, now to my point with more clarity....the JD's and Kubotas sitting on showroom floors TODAY are unlikely to perfectly reflect and directly match their respective perceived quality. The machine you buy may not be the machine you think you know, for better or worse.
Now I need a Tylenol. Hopefully the seal on the bottle is intact...
Okay, if I agree that Kubota is the highest quality tractor out there as witnessed by their sales leadership, will everyone agree with me that the Ford F150 is the best darn truck out there. It's been #1 in sales for the past 12 years.
Of course I don't really believe this, but I don't own a Kubota either./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Of course I don't really believe this, but I don't own a Kubota either./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Buster57
Platinum Member
I like F250s
Inspector507
Super Member
F250 SD V10
Chipperman
Platinum Member
Hello folks
Did I miss it? I did not see a link to a web site that lists Mfgs., Hp and market share. I followed the links but you have to be a member to get the full breakdown. If any one knows of a public web site that lists market share I think we would all like to know. If anyone can help please jump in.
Thanks
Chipperman
Did I miss it? I did not see a link to a web site that lists Mfgs., Hp and market share. I followed the links but you have to be a member to get the full breakdown. If any one knows of a public web site that lists market share I think we would all like to know. If anyone can help please jump in.
Thanks
Chipperman
bigpete
Veteran Member
I think our Moderators, I, and now you have asked that question and all we have seen in reply is someone "lacing" John for asking twice. Maybe its my turn for a lacing.
I'm sure Kubota does have unit sales for a specific range of FWD tractors sealed up, but the broad general claims of universal domination and ensuing subjugation of all things "tractor" always compell me to weigh in and ask questions, just like you.
As the old saying goes....
"Claims of superiority are undoubtedly frought with disinformation; the best is the foe of the good; and counsels of excellence are generally difficult to follow."
I'm sure Kubota does have unit sales for a specific range of FWD tractors sealed up, but the broad general claims of universal domination and ensuing subjugation of all things "tractor" always compell me to weigh in and ask questions, just like you.
As the old saying goes....
"Claims of superiority are undoubtedly frought with disinformation; the best is the foe of the good; and counsels of excellence are generally difficult to follow."
Buster57
Platinum Member
TBN should charge by the word.
TresCrows
Elite Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
One, I said indirectly.
Two, most people know the difference between a burger and a tractor.
Three, the only reaon this whole discussion just keeps on going is that JD guys, by and large, simply cannot accept the fact some people will not ever care anything for a JD and don't have to make excuses for it.
Four, in answer to how long an improvement in quality is reflected in sales (high ticket items) once the public is burned before they begin to forget or forgive, in the case of GM it was about 30 years give or take 'cept'n those of us like me who will never forget till GM forks over the 3,600 (1973) dollars they owe me and an apology.
Five, what's a Ford? (Found On Road Dead)
Six, your grandaddys JD is not the one that JD buys from Japan and rebadges. Is it true some large JD products have Kubota engines?
Seven, there is life in this thread yet, yo momma wears Army Shoes!
J
One, I said indirectly.
Two, most people know the difference between a burger and a tractor.
Three, the only reaon this whole discussion just keeps on going is that JD guys, by and large, simply cannot accept the fact some people will not ever care anything for a JD and don't have to make excuses for it.
Four, in answer to how long an improvement in quality is reflected in sales (high ticket items) once the public is burned before they begin to forget or forgive, in the case of GM it was about 30 years give or take 'cept'n those of us like me who will never forget till GM forks over the 3,600 (1973) dollars they owe me and an apology.
Five, what's a Ford? (Found On Road Dead)
Six, your grandaddys JD is not the one that JD buys from Japan and rebadges. Is it true some large JD products have Kubota engines?
Seven, there is life in this thread yet, yo momma wears Army Shoes!
J
TresCrows
Elite Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
Whilst stirring the pot might as well toss in a pinch of salt. Prediction, (fingers crossed that it does not happen) JD will, within the next 10 years, toss in the towel on the sub 40ish horsepower tractors due to low profit margins and increasing competition from a plethora of newly emerging brands. They will sell their brand name to MTD and their CEO will appear on Saturday Nite Live with the jailbird Martha Stewart. They will fold sweaters and remember the good ol'days when JD was number one and stock swindlers could do TV programs popular with neurotic middle class white women.
The good ol' days, yeppers, miss them already.
Walk fast, zig-zag and hide in dark places.
J
Whilst stirring the pot might as well toss in a pinch of salt. Prediction, (fingers crossed that it does not happen) JD will, within the next 10 years, toss in the towel on the sub 40ish horsepower tractors due to low profit margins and increasing competition from a plethora of newly emerging brands. They will sell their brand name to MTD and their CEO will appear on Saturday Nite Live with the jailbird Martha Stewart. They will fold sweaters and remember the good ol'days when JD was number one and stock swindlers could do TV programs popular with neurotic middle class white women.
The good ol' days, yeppers, miss them already.
Walk fast, zig-zag and hide in dark places.
J
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
4WD tractors are ag tractors... those articulated monsters with 8... or 12 wheels. 2WD tractors are the things we play with. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif The under-40 HP 2WD tractor category includes everything from a BX22 to a 4510 MFWD (I think it's 40 PTO HP, but I'd have to check).
No link can be posted to brand breakdowns because, well, we don't have access to that information. AEM makes it available only to manufacturers. Keep in mind that not EVERY manufacturer reports to AEM... but some 700 companies are AEM members and that's going to be most of them.
We (TractorByNet) do our own market research and what we have found points to the big three being, in order of market share, Kubota, John Deere, and New Holland. So I would take the statement that Kioti is #3 now, with a grain of salt... there isn't much there in terms of a change in dealers, products, or marketing to support Kioti being the #3 manufacturer in 2002. They don't even have a subcompact machine.
We got a kick out of Mahindra's claim to own 40% of the US CUT market, too. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
4WD tractors are ag tractors... those articulated monsters with 8... or 12 wheels. 2WD tractors are the things we play with. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif The under-40 HP 2WD tractor category includes everything from a BX22 to a 4510 MFWD (I think it's 40 PTO HP, but I'd have to check).
No link can be posted to brand breakdowns because, well, we don't have access to that information. AEM makes it available only to manufacturers. Keep in mind that not EVERY manufacturer reports to AEM... but some 700 companies are AEM members and that's going to be most of them.
We (TractorByNet) do our own market research and what we have found points to the big three being, in order of market share, Kubota, John Deere, and New Holland. So I would take the statement that Kioti is #3 now, with a grain of salt... there isn't much there in terms of a change in dealers, products, or marketing to support Kioti being the #3 manufacturer in 2002. They don't even have a subcompact machine.
We got a kick out of Mahindra's claim to own 40% of the US CUT market, too. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
jyoutz
Super Star Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
Trescrows, you either have too much time on your hands, or a lurking inferiority complex. Your rabid defense of Kubota and JD hating is getting very old. I own JD, but really like the Kubota and NH machines too. You can't go wrong on any of these brands. I bought based on better price and local dealer support. The fact is dealer support is lacking in many rural areas for brands other than JD. For this reason, JD will always have significant market share.
Trescrows, you either have too much time on your hands, or a lurking inferiority complex. Your rabid defense of Kubota and JD hating is getting very old. I own JD, but really like the Kubota and NH machines too. You can't go wrong on any of these brands. I bought based on better price and local dealer support. The fact is dealer support is lacking in many rural areas for brands other than JD. For this reason, JD will always have significant market share.
tractorlet
Silver Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2002
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- 106
- Tractor
- Use from inventory-varies
TBN is a part of the internet that circles the globe and we have many on TBN who are not from the USA or even North America. Some time it is easy to forget that tractors are used throughout the world and that what is number one in one country or continent is not in others. On assumption that AEM is the Association of Equipment Manufacturers your figures are probably for the USA and perhaps Canada, although Canada is usually set apart.
Since many US manufacturers are private labels of Japanese tractors I am not clear who gets to count what as their own sales or would both the Japanese and the USA labels each count the same tractor?
None of this would change the position of Kubota because, at least to my knowledge, they don't private label and are probably the far and away leader world-wide.
Kubota has sold some old tooling though, it is rumored, to some new players in the international new tractor sales.
Since many US manufacturers are private labels of Japanese tractors I am not clear who gets to count what as their own sales or would both the Japanese and the USA labels each count the same tractor?
None of this would change the position of Kubota because, at least to my knowledge, they don't private label and are probably the far and away leader world-wide.
Kubota has sold some old tooling though, it is rumored, to some new players in the international new tractor sales.
TresCrows
Elite Member
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
Ahhhhhh, the usual personal attacks, the last refuge, clearly your upset with me--too bad /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif . I won't play your game. I think you are breaking the forum rules /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif , hmmmmmmmmm.
Time on my hands?, No I am building an airplane in my basement since it is warm down here and I have the computer up and running all the time, frequently on TBN for your amusement.
Meanwhile I think I will go read my new book about the history of various tractors, pretty cool book, just for you. Prediction number two, Kioti will move to number two, NH will pass away. Kubota will loose it's momentum due to it's failure to maintain a traditional but inovative product as it fails to realize it's leadership role and becomes a follower like Ford used to copy GM. Kubota will still be number 1 but Kioti and others will rise to the challenge. How do I know all this, perhaps the Crows told me, we will see. All things are possible, the future is up for grabs. I will write a coffee table tractor book, Martha Stewart will still be a slime ball and you will still be a sorehead /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif but you will buy my book anyway. J
Ahhhhhh, the usual personal attacks, the last refuge, clearly your upset with me--too bad /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif . I won't play your game. I think you are breaking the forum rules /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif , hmmmmmmmmm.
Time on my hands?, No I am building an airplane in my basement since it is warm down here and I have the computer up and running all the time, frequently on TBN for your amusement.
Meanwhile I think I will go read my new book about the history of various tractors, pretty cool book, just for you. Prediction number two, Kioti will move to number two, NH will pass away. Kubota will loose it's momentum due to it's failure to maintain a traditional but inovative product as it fails to realize it's leadership role and becomes a follower like Ford used to copy GM. Kubota will still be number 1 but Kioti and others will rise to the challenge. How do I know all this, perhaps the Crows told me, we will see. All things are possible, the future is up for grabs. I will write a coffee table tractor book, Martha Stewart will still be a slime ball and you will still be a sorehead /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif but you will buy my book anyway. J
Thomas
Epic Contributor
- Joined
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- Kubota B2650HSD w/Frontloader & CC LTX1046 & Craftman T2200 lawn mower.
Cup of coffee and a plain good old fashion donut,you got my vote BigDave. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Anonymous Poster
Epic Contributor
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
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- 29,678
Re: John Miller you are blind or?
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>
Trescrows, you either have too much time on your hands, or a lurking inferiority complex.
<hr></blockquote>
I might as well jump into the fray.Being relatively new here...I have made some observations,I think there is a star member(no names mentioned) that is a control freak,I do not see where Tres is coming off as bad as some of the even(dare I say)moderators.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>
Trescrows, you either have too much time on your hands, or a lurking inferiority complex.
<hr></blockquote>
I might as well jump into the fray.Being relatively new here...I have made some observations,I think there is a star member(no names mentioned) that is a control freak,I do not see where Tres is coming off as bad as some of the even(dare I say)moderators.
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