Which Stick Welder?

[Anonymous Poster]

I've never welded before. Always wanted to learn, but never got around to it. Now I'm around to it.

I recently traded for an old Oxy-Acetylene setup with brand new Victor regulators. After one miserable attempt to repair a broken planting bar, /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I signed up for welding classes at the local Vo-Tech.

The classes are completely free form; you study what you want. I will be concerntrating on gas and stick welding, and plan to buy a stick machine in the next few weeks.

Locally, the welding supply has the Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 for $390 (no wheels), while TSC has the Hobart Stickmate LX 235 AC/160 DC with wheel kit for $370.

Anyone care to comment on these welders?

Thanks, SnowRidge

 

[Makers_Mark]

Ever since I switched to MIG welding I will never go back to stick unless absolutely necessary. You just get such a better, cleaner weld. No fussing with chipping flux off. The more comfortable I feel with welding, the more precise I want my bead to be. I am now looking into TIG. Huge jump in price though as far as the machines go.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[gerard]

I have a lincoln ac235, no dc, and am pretty happy with it. I paid less than 300 but don't have a dc option. I don't do anything fancy, just sticking farm stuff together and it works really well for that. Don't think I've ever had it above 120 amps so it has plenty of capacity for most things. Sticks aren't too complicated, just a big transformer and some switches, that's why they last forever. Mig is much nicer but is also about $200 more and has a lot more moving parts/maintenance issues as well as needing a gas bottle so for my infrequent use I went with stick. Either unit should serve you well.

 

[blackd]

I have the Hobar, love it, & think the wheels make a big difference for moving the few feet allowed by the short power cord. Cheaper with wheels, Hobart?

Don

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Your question contained its own answer; One source is a WELDING supplier, the other source is a box store. When you need help, who do you think can give it to you, the welding supplier, or the 18 year old kid presently working for the box store?
Buy the Lincoln toumbstone, and learn to weld. You aren't ready for a hot glue gun yet. A toumbstone is a very capable machine, I can weld overhead with one, because I learned to weld with one. 45 years later, I still own it, and although it's not my first choice for any job, the toumbstone is still capable, because I know how to weld with it. I keep it around partly to remind me where I started, and partly to demonstrate to smart people that welds are made by the man behind the helmet, and NOT the machine.
Stick is still the favored welding process for repair welding.

 

[orb]

I have the Hobart as well and really like it. Wheels are a must for me, since I have a small shop and use the welder infrequently. I tend to use DC more than AC since it gives me a little more control (no pulsing). My only complaint is that you can not replace the light gauge cables with heavier ones easily. I happen to have a set of 20' long cables I wanted to run off of my unit but I found that replacing them was not a plug and play set-up.

For the money I think its the best unit out there. Important to understand when compairing these small "buzz boxes" is duty cycle. I think this model has the highest in its price range.

 

[BB_TX]

I have a Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 and really like it. My first project? I bought 4 casters, welded some scrap 2" angle iron into a square base, stuck the casters to it and set the welder on it so I could roll it around. I also bought an extra 50' roll of weld cable, cut it in half, and connected each half to the standard cables that came on the welder. Much more convenient. With the wheels and long cables, I can reach most areas of my shop.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifBB Tex and Franz have given you two good tips: one is that welds ARE made by the welder-guy and not by the machine; and the next good tip is to cobble together a base out of angle iron and some casters. If you make the base, ten years from now it will still be there and you can look at the bird-turd welds that you made and say:"Wow, I've really come a LONG WAY in my welding. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm going to take Franz to task on one point, however, /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif and that is the notion that a wire welder is a "hot glue gun". Franz is exactly right about it being the welder-guy and not the machine, and in that vein, I take exception to characterizing a wire feed welder as a "hot glue gun". Believe me when I tell you that I have made quite a few VERY critical welds with my Millermatic 35; welds that HAD to hold or else; and I never even CONSIDER a failure. But then as Franz pointed out, it's NOT the machine, it's the welder. Send me some steel and I'll put a wire weld on that you can take to the state fair. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif As long as you are buying a welder, DO get an AC/DC machine. It would enable you to run overhead easier, and you can burn some DC-only rod which widens your welding capabilities. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

One thing you need to keep in mind when buying a stick welder is what size rod you will be using, in your case probably a 1/8",you need around 125 amps d.c. to run this sized rod.Another thing is duty cycle,how many min. out of 10 it will stay running before it kicks off in order for the machine to cool down, some, for example have only a 30% duty cycle at there max. current,and these are cheaper,but it all depends on what sized rod you plan on using.Another thing is whether to get a generator type or one that uses line electricity.A advantage of generator type is portability and as its use as a generator,and in that you have two different plug ins, one for 120 volts and some have a 220/230 volt receptical.If you fo example down the road plan on getting a m.i.g.welder to go on the stick welder,you need to know what kind of juice it will take and also duty cycle you will need on that wire welder,duty cycle is more imporant on wire welder than stick at given amps because you generally weld more min. out of 10.As far as brand MILLER makes about anything you could need and so does LINCOLN. RICHARD GAUTHIER

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Franz and me have had this conversation before, mig welds are suspicious nine times out of ten. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Besides forge welding, that's the best weld period, the process consists of liquifing two pieces together. The rod in stick welding and the wire in mig is just there to supplement the material lost in the process.

The problem with mig is most nonprofessional weldors gauge their work by appearance. I can't count the times I've repaired beautiful appearing welds that were cold joints. A cold joint is where the weld is just sitting on one side looking good and doing nothing.

This is hard to do with a stick, have a weld look good and be a cold joint. The reason is part of the bead is base material. With mig the bead is ninety nine percent filler wire. Some folks can do a cold joint with stick welder. It's just real hard to do, you almost have to work at it. But with a mig a weld can look perfect and be no better than a poorly mixed J-B weld.

I have three mig welders, three stick welders, a heliarc set up, and two different kinds of gas welding processes. For repairing in the field or shop I prefer stick. Fabrication in the field I also prefer stick.

I understand the preference for mig. It's easier and takes less skill. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But for most of the work to be done by the average part timer a small mig will do ninety nine percent of what they want done efficiently. It's just that with a mig you're limited to those situations.

With a stick you can buy specialized rods to weld aluminum, cast iron, galvanized, etc. When you want to do the same thing with mig you have to buy not only the specialized wire but also the appropriate gas. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I think everyone should learn to weld. It is a vehicle that can take you places nothing else can. You can create, repair, work, play, live your own way at your own pace, your way. Every piece of steel has it's own personality. You can either work with it or work against it. That's your choice. But when you work with it and it allows you to mold it into something wonderful or just plain good, now that's a high. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I will admit to some bias on the subject of making things. I will concede I like working with metals just like I do wood and rock. And I probably get a lot more pleasure out of this than a man has a right.

But that's okay. I'm having fun.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

The m.i.g. process is easier to think you are doing a better job.The m.i.g. process does not make better welds than stick.Some welding codes will not allow short circuiting m.i.g. process on certain higher critical joints,because of this learner friendly trait. Cold lap[lack of fusion to base metal] is a common problem of the m.i.g. process.If you turn it up in order to get penatration and avoid cold lap,its not all that easy any more especially over head,there are other tricks as well you have to use with m.i.g. to avoid these problems.RICHARD GAUTHIER

 

[jims5acr]

How about letting some of us with limited welding time with a MIG (me for example) know some of the tricks to making a good weld? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[dourobob]

In addition to the tips, I would really like to see some pictures of some "bad", "cold fused", etc welds (both MIG and Stick) along side some equally "good" welds so, when us rookies are assessing our attempts, we having something to compare.

Bob

 

[gerard]

wrought n harv
Without trying to get a total course in al welding, which I thought was usually done with TIG, can you advise what I would need to weld with a stick welder and can it be done with AC or is it a dc only rod? I assume the al has to be really clean like in tig and does the stick leave a slag coat like when welding steel? A readers digest version of al welding with stick would be read with great interest!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[herbenus]

Okay. I'll give my two cents worth. I imagine both machines are good machines. But don't base purchase on whether it comes with wheels or not. You can build a nice cart, one that is practical. I actually made mine from wood. It holds machine, hood, cutting torch bottles, and a few tools. I have the Lincoln tombstone AC only. I find 5/32 rods are easier to weld with, unless metal is real thin. We built some awfully heavy duty pipe racks with this machine at my last job. It's very capable. Rods will be another issue. I like 7018 rods because it's strongest and because it's what I learned on. But there's easier rods to weld with, particularly for welding through paint or rust. 7018 requires clean bare metal - but then that's always a good idea.

As far as looking at a mig weld to determine if it's any good, I don't think you can in every case. If in doubt, weld some test strips and try breaking them. But mig certainly can be strong. And it's easier. If I had the money I may have gone mig. But probably not. As seldom as I weld I would be concerned wire would rust up on spool, or mechanism get all dirty. And I had a certain amount I wanted to spend. For the money I would rather have more amps and stick, then a spooler and bottle with less amps. And I can change to a different rod quicker than changing a wire spool and head.

 

[herbenus]

I forgot to add (as if my post wasn't wordy enough): Lincoln has an excellent website with an awesome number of articles on different welding topics. If I do this right the site is

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/

Check it out. Look for the articles list.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

#1,clean your base metal of all oil and grease and shine it up where your going to weld.#2,burn hot enough to get penatration,I'm not looking at abook so... but 120 amps and 19 volts for .035 wire comes to mind,of course if you are welding sheet metal you go lower by using a smaller dia. wire.#3,move your wrist and direct you wire at the edges of what you are joining,Im talking about 1/4" thick and up.#4,if you start getting holes in your bead the wind could be blowing your gas shielding away#5keep your wire dry and rust free,also make sure your base metal is dry.Its a good idea in my opinion to learn to stick a little anyways before trying m.i.g. Stick welding requires more practice than mig and also more skill and if you are a desent stick welder you pick up m.i.g. pretty easy.I don't know if these where some of the things you were interested in knowing or not,but....Also it takes practice,to be good,years of practice. RICHARD GAUTHIER

 

[Anonymous Poster]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifRG has covered most of the salient points and especially the one about learning to stick weld FIRST. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I suspect that wire welders got a bad rap /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif because when they first came out the technology was a bit primitive and there was a lot we didn't know about technique. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif That, and the use of box store wire machines by the hobbyist who has NO IDEA /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif what welding with stick is like and doesn't really have a good way to tell if the wire weld is working or not. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif In the mid sixties we were still afraid to use wire welding on reallycritical stuff, but that has since changed with better machines and better techniques. When I first got my Miller it had the Miller gun on it and I kid you not, I thought the WHOLE CONCEPT of wire welding was flawed /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.....until I tossed the Miller gun in the trash /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif and installed a TWECO gun. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Oh, and in case I've given you the impression I am a MIG-only welder, just let me say I've WORN OUT two portable DC stick units welding pipeline in the field; you know, where the pipe joints have a BOTTOM SIDE as well as the easy side where the sun shines on it. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[poorboy]

Snowyridge, I have a 225 lincoln that I have been learning to use over the past few months. This machine is around thirty years old and was given to me for free. I have taken about 6 classes at a voc. tech college and practicing on the weekends. Bottom line is that this unit will probably do what I want to do with it on the farm. If buying I would definitly get one with DC. As far as brands lincoln, hobart and miller are the way to go from what I can tell. A miller thunderbolt would probably be the way I would go, this due to the local welding supply supply shops and possible resale values.I also like the fine tuning of the amp controls in this model better than the lincoln. Some sizes and welding positions require me to go up or down a little. After a few classes you will know what I mean. Wait until after a few classes then get one of your own to practice with at home. This will increase the welding curve. I kind of explained it to my bird hunting buddy in that you have to get the shooting basics down before you try to hit a flying grouse in timber. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Like to have given me fitsgetting the right angle and keeping it while the rod got shorter /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Good feeling when it all comes together and you can concentrate on the actual welding process.
Either way 450 max in a stick welder would probably do it and still be cheap and handy enough to still keep around no matter what process you went on to do. Good luck and don't get frustrated at first. It's a blast. If you can get a buddy to go down that road with you so you can compare notes. Or at least keep us up on you travels. You will have a lot of questions and these people here are the greatest. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Patrick

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Darn, you got me there. I've never tried to weld aluminum with stick. I have a couple of buds who swear by it though.

The reason I haven't is because I can either heliarc or spoolgun it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cardinal rule of welding is cleanliness is (pick your favorite word). With aluminum that's true in spades. btw I love welding aluminum, I'm not good at it but darn, it's fun and so pretty.

Welding is a lot like being married. When it's all working, it's very very good. But just a little thing out of kilter can mean nothing's right in the whole world.

One of the reasons I like the Miller Thunderbolt over the Lincoln tombstone is with the Miller there's infinite adjustment of the amps versus five to ten amp jumps with the Lincoln. There are times when five amps one way or other leaves one twixt and tween, twixt pulling their hair out or tween just cutting it off.