When the only tool you know is a hammer...

[KentT]

... every task resembles a nail... and all you might ever need is a bigger hammer ...

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/135099-what-should-i-do.html

As I just shake my head and smile...

Been there, done that, but that tee shirt didn't work for me... so I threw out my preconceptions and went with a PT...

Thanks for trying, also, Moss...

 

[ponytug]

Where is Rip when you need him?

Of course when the only tool you have is a Swiss army knife...

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

back down in the basement you go, red-headed step-child!

 

[MossRoad]

Thanks for trying, also, Moss...

As my dearly departed mom would say...

"Sometimes I wonder about people. Other times I'm sure!"

 

[MossRoad]

There, I changed my signature in her honor.

 

[KentT]

back down in the basement you go, red-headed step-child!

Some times it certainly feels like that's the case... I thought this original poster MIGHT be a capable of thinking outside the box since he'd already considered skidders (which are either articulating, or 4-wheel steer machines), skidsteers, and small tracked vehicles...

I wonder how many of these posters ever use their machines for what that design (ag tractors and all subsequent derivatives) was originally designed for -- pulling a plow or something similar. Once you get past the need for plowing, almost every other thing they do is a compromise, and sometimes a serious compromise. Ironically, farming is going away from plowing, and using no-till planting to avoid erosion and such...

At least some have tillers, where it is advantageous to readily till out your tracks, while keeping all four wheels on solid ground. Having most implements out front where you can see them, and keeping the body of the machine out of the "work area" is an incredible advantage for most things you try to do... before you even talk about the maneuverability and traction that full-time 4WD and articulation/oscillation provides...

Thanks for stepping in guys -- at least we've tried!

It's kinda funny, I typically don't even jump in any more, recommending PTs, unless I see something in their needs that clearly points to using one. Otherwise, it's kinda like trying to swim upstream against the current of strongly and widely held preconceptions by the majority of posters...

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

Power-Trac really needs a dealer network, where people could have the opportunity to try for themselves and experience the advantages -- not to mention the whole service/support issue...

If I were "king for a day" -- I'd try to inject PTs widely into equipment rental outlets (even at a discount), and potentially use them as a dealer network... There is simply no substitute for experiencing one -- words to describe them are almost totally inadequate.

As a minimum, PT should have high-quality videos (similar to Moss's) showing each attachment being used...

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

on a completely different level....

I had a Bolens articulating riding mower (made by Stiga). The deck was mounted on the front.......GREAT for mowing....fast, could see what you were doing, nimble, cut under bushes, etc., cut up hillsides......

i hated to sell it but when MTD bought Bolens, they started discontinuing parts and since this was and "odd-ball" I was having trouble getting things and i was worried about what another 10-15 years would be like....

so, i can see the practicality of having your attachments on the front....

every time my buddies came over, they wanted to ride "that thing........."

mine was a Bolens but they just put their name on it....here's a link:
http://www.stiga.com/(wy31mdraobpdrj455ehght55)/index.aspx?Country_id=1

another *they have since corrected EVERYTHING i thought were weaknesses.....very good quality.....priced accordingly

http://www.stiga.com/(wy31mdraobpdrj455ehght55)/index.aspx?Country_id=1

Some times it certainly feels like that's the case... I thought this original poster MIGHT be a capable of thinking outside the box since he'd already considered skidders (which are either articulating, or 4-wheel steer machines), skidsteers, and small tracked vehicles...

I wonder how many of these posters ever use their machines for what that design (ag tractors and all subsequent derivatives) was originally designed for -- pulling a plow or something similar. Once you get past the need for plowing, almost every other thing they do is a compromise, and sometimes a serious compromise. Ironically, farming is going away from plowing, and using no-till planting to avoid erosion and such...

At least some have tillers, where it is advantageous to readily till out your tracks, while keeping all four wheels on solid ground. Having most implements out front where you can see them, and keeping the body of the machine out of the "work area" is an incredible advantage for most things you try to do... before you even talk about the maneuverability and traction that full-time 4WD and articulation/oscillation provides...

Thanks for stepping in guys -- at least we've tried!

It's kinda funny, I typically don't even jump in any more, recommending PTs, unless I see something in their needs that clearly points to using one. Otherwise, it's kinda like trying to swim upstream against the current of strongly and widely held preconceptions by the majority of posters...

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

Power-Trac really needs a dealer network, where people could have the opportunity to try for themselves and experience the advantages -- not to mention the whole service/support issue...

If I were "king for a day" -- I'd try to inject PTs widely into equipment rental outlets (even at a discount), and potentially use them as a dealer network... There is simply no substitute for experiencing one -- words to describe them are almost totally inadequate.

As a minimum, PT should have high-quality videos (similar to Moss's) showing each attachment being used...

 

[MossRoad]

Here's a few thoughts on Power Trac....

My sister has a small business that started out as her passion, designing theatrical costumes. She enjoyed pursuing her passion and did it well. However, as the business grew, she had to spend more time running the business and less time pursuing her passion. Now, she ain't so happy.

I think Power Trac is happy building what they build as it appears to be their passion. However, if they take it up to dealer level, national distribution, etc... they will have to spend more time running the business and less time doing what makes them happy. More hassle than it is worth, to them, I think.

But, man, if they ever felt like just making a ton of money, it would seem like they could partner up with a big tractor or equipment company, take advantage of their dealer network and marketing, refine the machine a tad, and BOOM! off they go to claim half the conventional yuppie home owner tractor market.

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

yeah, paint them PT blue and you might have something!

Here's a few thoughts on Power Trac....

My sister has a small business that started out as her passion, designing theatrical costumes. She enjoyed pursuing her passion and did it well. However, as the business grew, she had to spend more time running the business and less time pursuing her passion. Now, she ain't so happy.

I think Power Trac is happy building what they build as it appears to be their passion. However, if they take it up to dealer level, national distribution, etc... they will have to spend more time running the business and less time doing what makes them happy. More hassle than it is worth, to them, I think.

But, man, if they ever felt like just making a ton of money, it would seem like they could partner up with a big tractor or equipment company, take advantage of their dealer network and marketing, refine the machine a tad, and BOOM! off they go to claim half the conventional yuppie home owner tractor market.

 

[KentT]

Moss,

I suspect you're right. Sometimes I wonder just how much PT listens to their owners, or how much hands-on experience they actually have with their machines, or they'd be more responsive to simple issues...

For example, how long did it take for them to deal with the cheap tubeless tires that they used on their mowers, blades, etc. Seems the feedback network (without dealers) seems lacking, for sure...

I just don't understand their business model, I guess...

 

[KentT]

on a completely different level....

I had a Bolens articulating riding mower (made by Stiga). The deck was mounted on the front.......GREAT for mowing....fast, could see what you were doing, nimble, cut under bushes, etc., cut up hillsides......

i hated to sell it but when MTD bought Bolens, they started discontinuing parts and since this was and "odd-ball" I was having trouble getting things and i was worried about what another 10-15 years would be like....

so, i can see the practicality of having your attachments on the front....

Yes, I know a couple guys that still have those. They're neat machines, as was the old "tube-frame" Bolens. I'm sorry to see that brand essentially die, except for the name...

Yes, attachments on the front of an articulating machine make precise placement possible, which combined with the speed/nimbleness of your maneuverability allows you to do things in the fraction of the time you'd spend when dragging your attachments behind you...

As an owner/collector of "antique" garden tractors (Simplicity derivatives), I go to a few antique tractor shows and get to see a lot of neat stuff. Some of our club members are simply collectors, regardless of brand, and they get into things like Strucks, Magnatracs, Wheelhorses, Bolens, Gravelys, etc. One of those Struck/Magnatracks with a 6-way blade would be a neat "toy" to own also -- I've just never been able to rationalize the cost.

 

[J_J]

Kent. Are you interested in an older Magnatrac M-1800 with 16 HP Wisconsin engine?

 

[KentT]

Kent. Are you interested in an older Magnatrac M-1800 with 16 HP Wisconsin engine?

I'm not personally interested, JJ, but I know a couple of people who are. With what's happened to my 401K and my house value, I'm watching nickels as retirement approaches in a little over 3 years.

I mentioned on another site (my Simp/Allis club) that I knew of one that may be available, and two people asked me about how to contact you. I'd emailed you through TBN about yours, but it sounds like you never received it. Send me a private message or email with your email address and phone number and I'll pass it on.

One of the guys has a son in the Navy in Jax, so he could readily move on it, if he's serious...

 

[SnowRidge]

Check out the Schaeffer (also spelled schaffer in locations without an umlaut in the language) loaders. They do not appear to be currently available in the US. They are available in Canada, Old Blighty, and the land down under, where they are used in logging applications.

I have no idea what one might cost, but I expect it could be a tad more than a PT.

 

[MossRoad]

Check out the Schaeffer (also spelled schaffer in locations without an umlaut in the language) loaders. They do not appear to be currently available in the US. They are available in Canada, Old Blighty, and the land down under, where they are used in logging applications.

I have no idea what one might cost, but I expect it could be a tad more than a PT.

Neat!

 

[KentT]

Neat!

Yep, if you needed something that size...

I'd just be happy to find a low-hours Gehl Advantage (i.e. Avante) at a bargain price... like someone else here did.

20HP water-cooled diesel, 72" lift height, telescopic lift arm, up to 10GPM/2900PSI hydraulics and 30 degree slope capability in a true "commercial spec" machine...

 

[Spiffy]

Here's a few thoughts on Power Trac....

My sister has a small business that started out as her passion, designing theatrical costumes. She enjoyed pursuing her passion and did it well. However, as the business grew, she had to spend more time running the business and less time pursuing her passion. Now, she ain't so happy.

I think Power Trac is happy building what they build as it appears to be their passion. However, if they take it up to dealer level, national distribution, etc... they will have to spend more time running the business and less time doing what makes them happy. More hassle than it is worth, to them, I think.

But, man, if they ever felt like just making a ton of money, it would seem like they could partner up with a big tractor or equipment company, take advantage of their dealer network and marketing, refine the machine a tad, and BOOM! off they go to claim half the conventional yuppie home owner tractor market.

I know, I know, been too long since I dropped in, but happened across TBN when googling something else, and thought I should say "Hi" to the PT gang! Howdy!

Back on topic, I think MR is has PT's theory figured out pretty well there, but adding in dealers would have to increase costs by at least 20% not to mention the support they'd have to provide (spare parts, dealer training, ect) some of which wouldn't cost them out of pocket other than a temporary ramp up. Other things like training likely would (or again burden existing employees parallel to MR's example) have direct expense.

Of course, with direct customer communication, you'd think that customer driven improvements might happen even faster - or at least as fast - as a dealer network system of sales; so I guess I don't quite understand their entire model either.

My wife loves the little tractor (she doesn't like the clutchs or shift patterns on the old Farmalls [like H's, not the CNH version]), but say's I have a love hate relationship: the 2445 is so convienient I like to do as much as possible with it, yet it doesn't have the weight it's size implies. And of course, I'm always say too "if only they'd done it this way", some of those things have been modified though!

 

[SnowRidge]

Power Trac used to have dealers. They got rid of them and dropped their prices. That was long before I bought mine, so I have no info on how much their sales changed, but I think they said they increased.

 

[BobRip]

Power Trac used to have dealers. They got rid of them and dropped their prices. That was long before I bought mine, so I have no info on how much their sales changed, but I think they said they increased.

Yeah, I heard that story from PT also. They said that the dealers just added cost and everybody still came back to PT for tech support.

 

[KentT]

Yeah, I heard that story from PT also. They said that the dealers just added cost and everybody still came back to PT for tech support.

I've heard that story, too... but, that just makes you wonder about what kind of sales and distribution (i.e. shipping) models that they had set up...

For example, Troybilt for many, many years sold through two channels -- direct (via phone or mail order) and through dealer networks. You paid the same price either way, the same as do with the JDs and Cub Cadet entry-level models now sold in "box stores" and dealers today... it's part of the basic business agreements in place.

I'm sure the bottom-line to the buyer was often (if not always) a bit higher -- but I also know that I would never have bought one without two things (a) MR's videos, especially with the brush cutter, that gave a good glimpse of what they could do, and (b) the opportunity to spend more than 30 minutes in the seat of one. Luckily, I didn't have to go to Tazewell, or I likely would never have owned one -- even though I was seriously considering one before I originally bought the little Kubota.

IMO, they simply have to be experienced to be appreciated -- it really surprises me that people (some who post here, for example) will buy one, for that amount of money, sight unseen...

Combine that with the kinds of warrantly problems that a few have experienced, and I can certainly see the value of a dealer network...

To illustrate this point -- what would we all do if Terry had a heart-attack tomorrow? How would that make you feel, especially given the almost non-existant manuals you get with your PT... Wouldn't you feel much better of some if that knowledge was shared?

Now back to the numbers -- look at the list, published price. What if you don't go to Tazewell, and so you don't get any discounts. Now add on the the cost of shipping. I can see where a dealer would be priced 10% or more than what you can go to Tazewll and buy one for... but does that include shipping and delivery? What about the accumulated shipping and delivery charges for parts (not counting the $50 minimum order stuff) over the next few years? What about any additional shipping for implements that you might purchase later? How does that factor in? I can see a 10% difference in dealer price -- if it was 20%, IMO something was wrong somewhere in how they were doing business...