What's invovled in getting a Patent???

   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #41  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Don't feel bad, Eddie. That's what happens with the occasional good ideas that I get --someone else has already gotten 'em. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #42  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

It happens very often. There are lots of bright people and good ideas often surface in multiple places. Can you post a link to the patent? If it issued in March 2006 (I think you mean issued, not filed), then it was likely filed 3 or more years before that.

This has been a great thread with lots of good advice. I think the best general advice was about considering a Patent in the overall context of the business. Patents are important tools in protecting and growing many types of businesses, but they are just a tool. It takes lots more to build a business. Just getting a Patent for the sake of the patent can be a personally gratifying trophy, but an expensive one if you are paying for it. They can also take a VERY LONG TIME. I just had one issue (the 10th one) that I filed over 13 years ago!! It's unusual for them to take that long, but it does happen.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #43  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

okay, the suspense is killing me...what's the patent number? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #44  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's nice to see I'm not the only one that owns a dawg like that. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One of the criterias for a patent is that the concept isn't obvious to one working in that field of endeavor. The idea has to be unique.

When you see something that's obvious but patented there's probably a couple of things going on. It could be that no one has contested the patent and or the patent examiner hadn't a clue about the subject. Of course the patent examiner is supposed to pick up on any patent infringements and determine if the idea is unique. But they're people.

If you go through the patent website and look at the patents you'll see a lot of what I call vanity patents. They look good and it's a feather in the cap of someone but when you look at them close they're not defendable.

One of the major livestock manufacturers-vendors was interesting to me to do a patent search on. All of the original ideas and patents were special and unique. Then the founder passed away. The patents after that were either vanity or completely off topic to their business.

You can see where the old man was a genius of original thought. But the original genius genes didn't seem to survive the transition to the next generations. However, it's obvious that the offspring had another kind of genius. They're great marketers.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent???
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Harvey,

You really should right a book on your observation and how the world works in general. I just love the way you put things into perspective!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Back to the Patent. I've re-read it several times, gone to the companies website and I'm still not sure. In their description, they have a sales pitch on what it will do and why. They have more reasons for it than I thought of, but their reasoning is DEAD ON with why I thought of it. Kind of scary.

In their diagrams and on their website, it's different though. They took too many steps and build something very fancy that does the same thing. Theirs will cost 4 times what mine will to make and be quite involved to install. Mine costs under $200 for the very larges version, and one guy can install it by himself real easy in a few minutes. Mine is also real easy to build using what's already there, where there's is a seperate unit all together.

The goals are so identical that I'll have to rethink my marketing to avoid using their description word for word. I think mine just might be unique and different from theirs. They sure don't look anything alike!!

It's the principle in operation that is the same. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

We should be getting some weather next week, so I'll get back to it when I can't get any work done outdoors.

Thanks to everyone for your advice,
Eddie
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #46  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

If I found the right application, it is a continuation of an early idea, so it actually gets a date of 2004. And beyond that they can go back with reasearch notes, etc. further in time. If you are thinking of patent, make sure you write the main ideas, drawings etc. in ink, date them, explain them to someone savvy enough to understand the idea and have them sign as a witness.
Now on to the patent process, you can take that write-up you saw in its entirety and start re-writing (edit what is there, not start over), explaining why he/she didn't cover you key idea (in the background of the invention), then explain the basic idea of what you did (in the summary of the invention), then describe the novel, useful and non-obvious idea(s) you have (in the detailed description) and explain the pieces with respect to the figures ( everything has to have numbers). At that point, you could file the provisional ( even without claims) and see if you could drum up some business. The guy with the commercial business here might have interest if yours is cheaper and easier! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #47  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

The critical thing here Eddie is not that you call it the same or that it does the same thing. What's important is how different is your idea from theirs?

One of the clauses in my latest patent application has to do with materials. Someone making my bracket out of plastic or stone is infringing upon my patent if I get it even though I will making mine out of steel.

If your idea is performing the same task in a unique way that's different from theirs you probably have a patentable product.

Unless of course your idea is already patented for doing a completely different process with a totally different intent. Your idea might still be considered unpatentable by an examiner.

That's what the patent search is all about.

Go to the new patent. Find their patent search. They will have a list of patents they've found that are similar but not close enough to theirs to constitute infringement. Click on those patents one at a time and look at them closely. If you have time do the same thing to their patent searchs. Follow these ideas back to the eighteenth century if you want.

It can be fun. And it will leave you amazed at what the human mind can come up with on occasion.

My next patent application will involve retaining walls. I've done quite a bit of research on it via the patent office web site. If I have a problem getting the patent it won't be from the retaining wall concept. But the fact that my idea incorporates some concepts used in electrical equipment. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When someone asks me why I've got so much invested time and dollar wise in my ideas I always ask them how many people do they know that own performance convertibles. Most of time they know of no one. But we know that marketing performance convertibles is a very profitable and large dollar wise business.

You don't have to have everyone needing and wanting your product to make it a viable and profitable entity.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #48  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Here's an interesting story about the patent system in Sunday's Dallas Morning News.

story
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #49  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

One good title is "Patents, Copyrights, And Trademarks" Second Editoin, by Frank H. Foster and Robert L. Schook John Wiley & Sons Inc. 1993. It has been some time (since 1984 or so) that I studied this topic in earnest but I think there might be another good book or two - I can't put my hands on the other books right now. Also, there used to be a series called something like "The Law in a Nutshell" used by law students to quickly grasp the fundamentals of various areas of the law - there was a patent and copyright title (also known as intellectual property) that was helpful. As is stated in the thread you need a patent lawyer. This is a specialized area of the law that requires a person to pass a separate bar exam. To start, you must, absolutely must keep dated, accurate, reliable records of how you develop your idea if you really want to do the ground work to protect your idea. I am not a patent lawyer but I always enjoyed that area of the law. Charlie
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #50  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

I did some research a while back - and the one thing I remember clearly is once the idea is in the public domain, either by publishing it (on TBN!) or sharing it, using it regularly, or manufacturing it at all, the idea can no longer be patented. So if you are still interested in patenting this idea, do not allow it to enter the public domain. NDA's and such are critical.

On the flip side, if your goal is to prevent others from patenting your idea and profitting from it - just publish it either here or in a magazine, and it is now in the public domain.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #51  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie – if you really want to patent your idea - Don’t tell us what it is, and stop writing / hinting about it.
Some other things to consider:

PRIORITY DATE AND PRIOR ART

Every patent application is afforded a “priority date” by each patent office in which it is filed. Generally, this priority date is the date on which the patent application is first filed in any patent office. Most countries have agreed that as long as the same patent application is filed in different patent offices within one year of its first filing in any patent office, each of the different patent offices will assign the application a priority date identical to the first filing date. The priority date is important because it is used by the respective patent offices to determine “prior art” for the patent application.

Prior art includes all publications (e.g., research articles, posters, product literature, etc.) and other information (e.g. sales of the invention, spoken presentations, product demonstrations, etc.) publicly available before the priority date of a patent application. In evaluating a patent application, a patent office collects and reviews the prior art with relation to the invention presented in the patent application. Because prior art is based on the patent application’s priority date, it is important for all inventors to establish the earliest possible priority date for their inventions; and, it is imperative to apply for a patent (i.e., obtain a priority date) before any public disclosure of an invention. If an inventor publishes information about the invention before filing a patent application (i.e., obtaining a priority date), patentability of the invention can be significantly compromised or destroyed entirely because the inventor’s publication will be considered prior art against his or her own patent application. (With this said the patentability of your invention might already be toast).

THREE PATENTABILITY CRITERIA

The three international criteria for a patentable invention include novelty, inventive step, and industrial applicability, and all of these criteria are measured using the prior art available prior to the priority date for the given patent application. Although the majority of patent offices make patentability decisions independently of other patent offices, each patent office evaluates patent applications using these same three criteria of novelty, inventive step, and industrial applicability in generally the same ways.

“Novelty” of an invention relates to its uniqueness with respect to the prior art. An invention described in a patent application may be rejected by a patent office as not novel if, for example, a single prior art publication or publicly available product describes or includes all elements of the invention with sufficient detail to allow a person (with experience in the applicable scientific field) to understand the entire invention without having to read the patent application. If the patent office cannot find a single prior art description or product showing all elements, the invention in the patent application may be deemed novel.

“Inventive step” is known in some countries as “non-obviousness,” and relates to the originality of an invention with respect to the prior art. A patent application must describe an invention that is both novel and non-obvious. When a single piece of prior art almost describes the invention, or when two or more pieces of prior art can be combined to nearly or fully describe the invention, a patent office may contend that the invention lacks inventive step or is obvious with respect to the prior art. Lack of inventive step, or obviousness, is the reason most often cited by patent offices for rejecting a patent application, and nearly all patent applications are initially rejected for at least this reason. A patent office’s determination of lack of inventive step or obviousness, however, cannot be based on a hindsight reconstruction, and therefore, it is not enough that one could look back on the prior art after having read the patent application to derive the invention. The inventive step or non-obvious criterion is the most difficult to articulate as it is factually driven using legal criteria for obviousness that are distinct from typical definitions of obviousness used outside of patent examination.

The last criterion for patentability, “industrial applicability” or “utility”, requires that an invention have a use. Any invention for which a use can not be determined will be rejected, regardless of its novelty or inventive step. Utility rejections are seldom if ever applied to electrical or mechanical inventions.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent???
  • Thread Starter
#52  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Thanks again to everyone for your support and assistance.

I've now abandoned any thought of trying to get a patent. There's just no interest on my part to pursue it much farther. The one that is filed does the same thing, but it will involves more steps, costs ALLOT more money and is more fancy.

My idea is more bare bones. It's cheap and easy to build.

I'm taking pictures like crazy of just everything and anything. Thankfully they are all digital and I can decide later which are worth keeping.

I really like the idea of soliciting a few volunteers and seeing if you want to build one. Maybe find a few of you close by and invite myself over to help you build it to see how it works on different sized tractors and applications. I like this idea allot!!!

This weekend I'm expecting some visitors from this site and will do a demonstration for them. Just sort of see what they think and gauge their reaction to it. Family all loves the idea, but they're family. They wouldn't say if it was a dumb idea no matter how bad it was.

Thank you again to all of you for taking the time to help me understand this to some degree. The more I learn, the less I know!!! That sure makes allot of sense here.

Eddie
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #53  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

So if you're not going to get the patent, are you going to reveal it ?? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent???
  • Thread Starter
#54  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Yes, once I finish it and do spend some time with it to make sure it works!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'll start a new thread on it with some pics and how it works. Than we'll see if anybody else thinks it's a good idea. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Eddie
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #55  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

It might be a bit complicated, not to speak of time-consuming "dropping over" to my place, although you're more than welcome to do it. I'd suggest sometime in August, when you might be looking for some relief from the Texas heat. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

BTW, do you think it will still work when the temp gets up over 100F? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (I'm still fishing for hints. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent???
  • Thread Starter
#56  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Didn't I already give ya'll a hint??? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It's a $200 version of something that will cost over a grand at the store. I've even heard of them costing over 2 grand. Of course, this is a very simple version of it that will do the same thing, more or less. That's for my full sized tractor. Smaller tractors can use thinner steel and shorter pieces, which means even less money.

I don't even have a name for it yet!!! hahahaha

Tomorrow I'm expecting a visit from one of the guys from here, his wife and another couple that they travel with. I want to get his opinion before I do anything else.

I'm also going to email a couple guys and see what they think before posting pics of it in operation.

It might very well be a big nothing and a minor embarassment for me. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I still don't know.

If it works like the wooden model did, and holds up to a days usage, than I'll share it with all of you. If it doesn't work, I'll still share it with your, but than I'll be asking for help to make it work!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Eddie
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #57  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

I wouldn't worry much about embarassment. I've made a second career out of doing things that would be embarassing if I had any sense of shame, which I don't.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #58  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Although you have abandoned the idea of a patent, I still beleive I would take pictures of the idea and show it working and a written description and date each peice and have it noterized not for any monitary reason but for purely a record for my own personal satisfaction. It would be like signing a peice of furniture and dating it that you have made. Years after you have made it you can look back and see when it was done reflect on it and see improvements in your skills. I hope that don't sound silly but I have seen times when I would liked to have had some kind of record of things that I have done [some things I am glad I don't have record of] . Have fun with your project.
 
   / What's invovled in getting a Patent??? #59  
Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Keep in mind that a better, cheaper way to build a gadget that does the same thing as another product is absolutely patentable. In that case, the novelty is in the better, cheaper mechanism, not the end utility of the product itself.

Take a VCR (I'm making this up completely, but it should illustrate the point). Each new generation of VCR is cheaper and better and smaller. Each new generation probably includes multiple new patents. The end utility of the VCR is the same, but for example a simpler transport mechanism that is cheaper to build is a novel approach to solving the specific problem of a tape transport. Such a patent can actually be quite valuable because it can enable one VCR manufacturer to build cheaper VCRs than everyone else.

I'd really recommend you try to find a patent attorney who will at least hear you out and give you some advice. Many will do it for free for an initial consult. Or take advantage of some of the members here who have a bunch of experience doing patents and see if someone is willing to hear you out - but be sure to do a non-disclosure agreement before-hand to protect yourself.

Peter
 

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