What kind of welder should I buy

gordon21 · Dec 17, 2006

I can't weld. I am jealous of many of you.

Now that that confession is out of the way, I want your help. After buying a tractor and lots of other goodies, I see the time has come to learn to weld. Occasional basic welding with plain steel. Most items to be welded would be 1/8"-3/8" thick pieces to each other or small stuff to thicker pieces like a FEL or backhoe bucket edge. I could care less about the final bead appearance. I am looking for functionality, not looks. Getting a house call for welding is a pain in the butt and expensive.

I am pretty handy with other tools so basic safety is already ingrained in me. Assume that I am willing to spend $750 to come home with everything I need to start welding except the steel. I want to buy the right unit right from the start and not buy something cheap or inadequate and then have to rebuy the right stuff later. I have a pickup so I could go get my own gas tanks if needed.

Here goes the questions:

Electric or gas? And what's the basic difference in the results they give
MIG, TIG, various gases, etc
Can one welder do steel AND aluminum?
Which is safer to use?
Which is easier to use?
How do you keep from getting electrocuted when electic welding?
What is wire feed welding?
Suggested rods?
Portability? Electric welders obviously need power close by. 120 or 240 volt?

Today's Northern Tool ad showed a Hobart 140 MIG welder for $459 that can weld up to 1/4" Does that mean two 1/8' pieces to each other or anything to a 1/4" thick piece. It comes with a gas conversion kit. How do you convert an electic welder to gas?

MadReferee · Dec 17, 2006

Buying a welder is like buying a tractor. There are many colors and many models. What is good for me is not necessarily good for you.

That said, your requirements of welding 1/4" to 3/8" steel and $750 to spend and the fact that you are a welding newbie would all tend to have me recommend a MIG in the 175 amp range. Easy to learn and flexible (flux core or soild wire w/C25 gas).

There are plenty of welding forums out there from the major manufacturers where your question has been asked and zillions of opinions given. Have fun.

kenmac · Dec 17, 2006

Ok now, this is just my opinion, but if you can't weld at all . I would purchase a 220 volt linclon or miller buzz box that will weld ac/dc . I have a wire welder & a buzz box. The metal has to be clean before you are able to weld cause wire just won't weld very good over rust, etc,. This would be a great starter machine & will weld most anything around the home.If you are going gasoline that's great but you will have to come up with more than the $750.00 that you want to spend.Others that do this stuff all the time may have different ideas.

Trev · Dec 17, 2006

I'd suggest posting your question at:

Toolboxtalk

Wish I could help, but I know nothing about welding either.

BobG_in_VA · Dec 17, 2006

Too many questions up front. Seems like if you can stick weld at all, you can really MIG well. TIG is more for aluminum, etc. If you are intersted in making sure you can stick two pieces of steel together, I'd go with stick. Suggest you go with a 220/240 volt unit (you'll buy it twice if you don't...you'll understand later what I mean if you buy a 110/120). If you plan on good penetration on dirty/painted surfaces (FEL bucket), go with a 3/32" 6011 (very little slag, not a real pretty bead, but holds like super glue...). Now for the helmet....Question: how much are your eyes worth? You can spend $50 or $500 on helmets. I use a Jackson Next Gen. Has a 1/25000 of a second switch. If you are just starting, suggest an electronic vs. a flip down. Much easier to learn quickly. A number of folks here use "tombstones" which are good all around shop units. I've got a Miller Trailblazer on a trailer as I don't have power in the barn where I do this stuff. BobG in VA

gordon21 · Dec 17, 2006

Madreferee: You mention C25 gas. Does a MIG welder need gas plus electricity?

You said 175 amps?? That's a lot of power!!! Isn't that something like 21,000 watts?? Do you guys have that kind of main breaker box in your homes or shops? 175 amps for the welder plus whatever else is running at the house could easily top a demand of 300 amps. My house will not be wired with that capacity.

My neighbor back in Floida had one of those huge welders on a trailer. The main box was about the size of a big screen TV. He held a rod in one hand and used some type of pistol shaped gun in the other. A gasoline motor ran the thing. What kind of welding was this?

rjgogo · Dec 17, 2006

gordon21 said:
I can't weld. I am jealous of many of you.

Now that that confession is out of the way, I want your help. After buying a tractor and lots of other goodies, I see the time has come to learn to weld. Occasional basic welding with plain steel. Most items to be welded would be 1/8"-3/8" thick pieces to each other or small stuff to thicker pieces like a FEL or backhoe bucket edge. I could care less about the final bead appearance. I am looking for functionality, not looks. Getting a house call for welding is a pain in the butt and expensive.

I am pretty handy with other tools so basic safety is already ingrained in me. Assume that I am willing to spend $750 to come home with everything I need to start welding except the steel. I want to buy the right unit right from the start and not buy something cheap or inadequate and then have to rebuy the right stuff later. I have a pickup so I could go get my own gas tanks if needed.

Here goes the questions:

Electric or gas? And what's the basic difference in the results they give
MIG, TIG, various gases, etc
Can one welder do steel AND aluminum?
Which is safer to use?
Which is easier to use?
How do you keep from getting electrocuted when electic welding?
What is wire feed welding?
Suggested rods?
Portability? Electric welders obviously need power close by. 120 or 240 volt?

Today's Northern Tool ad showed a Hobart 140 MIG welder for $459 that can weld up to 1/4" Does that mean two 1/8' pieces to each other or anything to a 1/4" thick piece. It comes with a gas conversion kit. How do you convert an electic welder to gas?

This is the best place to start lurking, then post questions. All brands are discussed. Lincoln, Hobart, or Miller are the best choices, Stick or Mig the best for a newbie. I learned to weld in High school years ago but learned a ton here.

Weld Talk Message Boards - Powered by vBulletin

I have both a Lincoln AC/DC unit and a Miller MIG. Both are good for different applications.

Edit to add the 175 is DC, most will ask for a 50 AMP plug but not usually pull that much. The rest of your questions will easily be answered on that site.

wushaw · Dec 17, 2006

Mig is easiest to learn, learning on a stick can be frustrating at first. Mig is point and pull trigger then move gun.
Mig is good for steel & aluminum.
Buy bigger than you think you will need now because you will need it after you start making things...it is very addicting.
I would stick with Miller, Hobart & Lincoln in a 200 - 250 amp machine, they will weld anything from 22/24ga sheetmetal up too 1/2" on the 250amp machine and up to 3/8" on 200amp model in a single pass.
I am partial to blue so my recommendation is MM210 or MM251.
Get a auto darkening helment, they are great.

You need 220v supply with 6ga wire on a 50amp breaker, this will cover any welder you want at home. The plug, wiring...etc is available at HD, lowes..etc.

MadReferee · Dec 17, 2006

gordon21 said:
Madreferee: You mention C25 gas. Does a MIG welder need gas plus electricity?

It needs electricity and shielding gas is optional. You can either use flux core wire without shielding gas or solid core wire with C25 (argon/CO2) shielding gas.

gordon21 said:
You said 175 amps?? That's a lot of power!!!

No it's not. It a mid range machine with 175 amp output, not input.

gordon21 said:
Do you guys have that kind of main breaker box in your homes or shops? 175 amps for the welder plus whatever else is running at the house could easily top a demand of 300 amps. My house will not be wired with that capacity.

You have a lot to learn about transformer welders. For example a Millermatic 175 mig welder (it's rated at 175 amps) requires single phase 230v 19.5 amps. A 30A circuit would be just fine. The unit is physically just smaller than 2 mid-tower computer cases side by side.

I would suggest you go to the Miller website and take a look around. You can also go to the Miller discussion forum or the Hobart discussion forums and browse around. Be an informed buyer / buyer wannabe.

AlanB · Dec 17, 2006

Again, Vo-tech if one is near you, or a buddy that welds and can show you the various types, and explain the What's and Why's.

If I was doing tractor work and the $750 was a solid budget, I am guessing you are missing many metal fab tools.

My money would be on a Lincoln AC 225 and a quality set of torches, a high quality 4 1/2" grinder, a chop saw and a cheapie band saw. Auto dark helmet of your choice (I would go HF)

I think you will be out of money at that point. Now if the 750 is just for welder and you already have the "accesories" then the 175 mig would be a great place to go.

Best thing I could suggest though would be Vo-tech, or a buddy, or bring a box of donuts and a pot of coffee to the local welding shop on a Sat am (if they are open) and ask if you can hang out for a day and help / learn / ask questions.

I think I am taking a weeks vacation and hanging out out the transmission shop in Jan or Feb to learn to rebuild converters. They don't pay me, but I get to learn a skill that most folks do not possess.

Reading the websites, and the forums are good, but to get a basic understanding (at least for me) I want to see it in the flesh, and have it explained too me.

shaley · Dec 17, 2006

I think people are mixing terms. When a mig welder says flux core or gas it means it will weld with wire that has a core of flux so shielding gas is not needed or solid wire with a gas shield. Some MIGs (metal inert gas) units are not set up for gas flow (timed pre and post purge and valves etc). There are gasoline powered welders. Good for mobile jobs. TIG welders are (Tungsten Inert Gas) and use a tungsten tip and an inert gas (Helium Argon) shield over the arc. Good for welding Alum. on AC and Stainless on DC and small parts and intricate welds.
What we call Stick is GMAW Gas metal arc welding and the flux covered rod produces the shielding gas. Stick welders can be AC and if you pay more AC/DC. Heliarc is actually a trade name for TIG back when they used helium gas for Aluminum.
I would recommend a AC/DC stick machine or a wire feed MIG unit that is capable of adding gas in case of welding Aluminum or Stainless.
DC stick will be the easiest to learn and you will look like a pro in no time because of its stable arc. AC takes a little more attention to joint prep and rod selection. Once again, a good machine with good stable open circuit arc voltage will help. 110 volt buzz boxes are not the ticket here.

Sully2 · Dec 17, 2006

Follow MadReferee's lead here partner. A welder such as the Miller or a Hobart in the 175-185 amp range and using "flux cored wire" will do you fine. AND...if you cant get it to "stick"..so that the welded part cant stay together and function...just give it up! Its that easy.

Using solid wire and gas with it ( and easy change-over) allows you to make a weld that looks like a "pro"...but also allows you to weld AL...SST...and castiron!! ( with the proper wire material of course.

Ive started with a Hobart 140...that only need 110V..and will only do 1/4 inch thick stock with a double pass...BUT..for "MY USAGE" it seems to do fine. Should I dicover that in the future I need MORE...then I'll convert my little machine to MIG and use it with the gas on thin sheet metal jobs...and use the JMBO on much heavier material using flux cored wire.

I CANT ARC WELD AT ALL.....unless you call sticking the rods all the time "welding"..

swines · Dec 17, 2006

Don't believe a 110/120 Volt welder won't do the job. The people making those statements probably haven't used an inverter welder and are basing those statements on transformer welders. Inverter power sources are far more efficient than transformer welders. Also, most of the inverters are "auto linking" meaning you can use them on multiple voltages without making internal jumper changes.

This means if you have to run on 110 / 120 you can do that at a reduced output, but if you have 220 / 240 available, you can use that voltage with an increase in output.

A Miller MaxStarr 150 will put out 100 amps at 115 Volts and 150 Amps on 230Volts. I own the MaxStarr 140 (prior model to the 150) and have used it on 120 Vac to weld 3/8-inch metal. The bonus is the size and portability makes it far easier to use than the transformer welders. The Miller Passport MIG will output up to 140 Amps on 110 / 120.

Also, weld joint preparation can have a great effect on the final weld. It is possible to weld 3/8-inch metal with a 110 / 120 Vac MIG welder if you prepare the joint correctly, make a good root pass and then finish the weld with two filler passes.

Technique is just as important as equipment. Granted, a high output welder makes it easier to weld thick metal, but, you have to evaluate how much you're going to weld and the thickness of metal.

I have a 300 Amp multi-process welder, a 180 Amp TIG, the MaxStarr 140, a 40 Amp plasma cutter, and a gas welding setup. But, I could probably do about 70% of the arc welding I need to do with the MaxStarr - including lift TIG.

Welding steel with a MIG is easy, in fact poor weldors look like good weldors. If you want to weld stainless with a MIG then you have to change gasses to pure Argon or a different Argon mix as the CO2 in a 75/25 mix will make the weld brittle (the C in the CO2 adds carbon to the weld).

Aluminum is best left to AC TIG or stick. The AC provides cleaning on the aluminum surface - it breaks up the suface oxides so the weld material will adhere to clean metal. The term AC welding is often misunderstood. It is not using alternating current. It is in fact direct current welding with the electrode and surface changing polarity (DC - electrode negative / DC - electrode positive) = DCEN / DCEP - this IS NOT AC current being used for welding.

AC with stick for steel welding is often used for out-of-postion welding because the alternating polarity allows the weld metal to cool slightly before the next heating cycle so the weld bead does not run or drip as easily.

Now for cast iron. That one's really difficult and best left to professional weldors, unless you want to play around and the final result doesn't matter. Brazing cast iron is relatively straight forward using a torch. But, welding is difficult unless you use special alloy welding materials, pre-heat the area, and then carefully cool it. Cast iron is a "dirty" metal in that it will have carbon inclusions in it that can make the weld area very brittle and susceptible to cracking.

If you have 220 / 240 Vac available, have about a $1800 budget, and want to make it easy on yourself - then, by all means go straight to a MIG machine like the Millermatic 210 or equal.

gordon21 · Dec 17, 2006

I poked around some of those welding sites and 50% of what they saying was greek to me. However, it is seeming like what I need may be a MIG welder in the 170-200 range that will work fine with a 40 amp breaker. The thought of one machine being able to do simple steel welding and also do aluminum is important for the future. I was thinking of a budget of $750 for the welder, cart, gas tank, helmet and a small amount of wire to get started. Other tools and wiring the shop were not included in that budget.

I will continue to do some research on the MIG welders. Would it be safe to assume that the consumables don't cost much? How much are the solid or flux core wires? If I welded some angle steel together and made fifteen 2" long welds (30" total bead length) could this be done on $20 or less in wire?
Is there a rule of thumb on the wire like $0.50 per foot, a dollar per foot, etc

Madreferee: I'm kinda slow, but I still don't understand where you can get 175 amps out of a 240 volt 40 amp breaker. V*A=W

Does this welder work at less than 120 volts? I can see 40 amp breaker service being run up to 175 amps, but only if the working voltage is dropped to something like 25 volts Please be patient-I'm trying to learn and none of the welding sites explained this.

kenmac · Dec 17, 2006

you can get 250 amps out of a 240 v 40 amp breaker. I think it has something to do with the transformer in the welder. I learned on a stick so a stick is easer for me . Keep in mind that if you are going to weld on stuff that may be rusty or painted that the metal will have to be cleaned to weld with a mig. With a stick & a 6011 rod you can weld over most anything. I do have a mig ,but I use the stick most of the time.Good luck to ya

kennyd · Dec 17, 2006

gordon21 said:
Does this welder work at less than 120 volts? I can see 40 amp breaker service being run up to 175 amps, but only if the working voltage is dropped to something like 25 volts Please be patient-I'm trying to learn and none of the welding sites explained this.

Now you have it figured out...The voltage is usually 22-30v or so...
Go to the Miller site in this link...
Miller - Welding Library, Safety Resources and Welder Eduation
and look at the left hand column. It has a online beginners course that will answer your questions. Look in the "Welding Dictionary" and the "Understanding Electricity in Welding"

MadReferee · Dec 18, 2006

gordon21 said:
I poked around some of those welding sites and 50% of what they saying was greek to me. However, it is seeming like what I need may be a MIG welder in the 170-200 range that will work fine with a 40 amp breaker. The thought of one machine being able to do simple steel welding and also do aluminum is important for the future. I was thinking of a budget of $750 for the welder, cart, gas tank, helmet and a small amount of wire to get started. Other tools and wiring the shop were not included in that budget.

Raise your budget to $1500 to $1800 and you can get a good 210 amp MIG with all accessories. Then you can add a spool gun at a later date to do thinner aluminum.

For years I fabbed many, many projects including a landscape rake using a Miller 175 MIG. I finally upgraded to a Miller 251 when I needed the extra power for use with thicker steel. The 175 would do the jobs but it required multiple weld passes which was getting kinda repetitive for some of my jobs.

gordon21 said:
I will continue to do some research on the MIG welders. Would it be safe to assume that the consumables don't cost much? How much are the solid or flux core wires? If I welded some angle steel together and made fifteen 2" long welds (30" total bead length) could this be done on $20 or less in wire?
Is there a rule of thumb on the wire like $0.50 per foot, a dollar per foot, etc

Generic solid wire is between $2 and $2.50 per pound in 10 lb rolls. Flux core wire is about $3.50 - $4 per lb. Gun tips are cheap but you WILL need some. That's it for basic consumables.

gordon21 said:
Madreferee: I'm kinda slow, but I still don't understand where you can get 175 amps out of a 240 volt 40 amp breaker. V*A=W

Does this welder work at less than 120 volts? I can see 40 amp breaker service being run up to 175 amps, but only if the working voltage is dropped to something like 25 volts Please be patient-I'm trying to learn and none of the welding sites explained this.

I believe kennyd answered that by pointing you to the Miller Education site.

fabrej · Dec 18, 2006

I have the Hobart 140 you mentioned. It is a great welder for me and I taught my self how to weld on it. I use it off of a regular 110 plug on my carport and it also runs off of my 3500 watt Craftsman generator when I am up at the cabin in the woods.

I have not converted it to shielding gas yet but spatter hasn't killed my welded projects yet. I currently just buy the flux core wire for it.

I have welded some rather thick pieces of metal with it and the welds are still holding strong. A lot of this is technique and preparation.

Attached is a pic of one of my simple projects that I have welded recently. Good luck!!

kenh3510 · Dec 18, 2006

I have a Hobart 225 amp AC stick welder and for all my steel projects this works just fine. Something to keep in mind is that a stick welder will do fine outside when it is blowing and a Mig or Tig just won't keep the gas shield in a wind. If you weld with anything inside you will need a way to get the weld smoke out of the area, it smells bad and is bad for your lungs. So, inside with a fan for any kind of machine or outside for stick either AC or AC/DC.
Suggest you take a welding course before you buy with the express purpose of trying/learning on all 3 basic welding machines, MIG TIG and STICK...then make a decision.

good luck