Loader What Goes Up Doesn't Necessarily Go Down!

[BubbaSam]

Hello to all,

I have a 2005 CK30HST with a KL130 FEL. When I first got the tractor I could rotate the bucket downward and bite into the dirt to stabilize the tractor when using the backhoe. At that point it lifted loads just fine. However, now it barely lifts the front end when biting into the dirt to lift the front wheels off the ground.

This seemed to start when I did the 500 hour maintenance... all fluids, filters, etc. The dealer told me NOT to use Tractor Supply Hydraulic Oil as it would damage the seals... but of course he wanted to sell me his oil for two plus times the amount. So what I did was go to NAPA and had the oil cross referenced to their product, PN# 87105, "J20D SYN TK HYD FL 5G". So, I called Kioti and asked them about the oil. They told me that, and I quote, "Any Synthetic Hydraulic Oil Is OK." They also emailed me a list of 8 additional aftermarket brands. I purchased the NAPA oil, completed my maintenance. All my research says the oil I purchased is AOK!

I also noticed that the steering seems to chatter slightly at times and when cold it tends to jerk when starting to move forward slowly.

I recently had a pallet on my forks with the loader raised all the way up getting some items from the upper level of the barn. I loaded about 250-300 lbs onto the pallet. Came down from the upstairs shortly after and the forks had dropped almost a foot.

There is no discoloration of the oil, the oil level is right on, there is no foam in the oil, it is not air bound and the two hydraulic filters (Kioti brand) have been changed since then.

At this point I am thoroughly confused. No one seems to be able to come up with any ideas to what the issue is.

I had someone pick the tractor who works with hydraulic repairs. When I started it I tried to raise the front wheels off the ground and they went right up. He hauled the tractor about 10 miles, took it off the trailer and tried to lift the wheels off the ground... and they barely went... ever so slowly.

So... enough babble for now... I am asking for ANYONE who might have some idea what this could be?

The only thing that I have NOT done is changed the oil again.

Any help or executive guestimates would be GREATLY appreciated...

 

[seville009]

Don’t have a technical answer, but if it were me, I’d try unscrewing one end of both the bucket hoses, then screw them back in, retract all hydraulic cylinders (on the loader and 3pt) and then double check the fluid level.

 

[Amvcane]

Have you tried disconnecting and reseating all of the quick connect couplers that go to the loader?
Also, I believe there are some plastic parts or cable ends in the joystick which are prone to wear causing erratic behavior.

 

[wdchyd]

A common issue I have seen with Kioti cyls is worn or blown out internal piston seals. They use two u-cup seals facing apart (in the ones I have seen), sometimes one of the two are blown, allowing you to put up pressure successfully but down pressure not so much. May want to check them.

 

[BubbaSam]

Have you tried disconnecting and reseating all of the quick connect couplers that go to the loader?
Also, I believe there are some plastic parts or cable ends in the joystick which are prone to wear causing erratic behavior.

Hello Amvcane,

THANK YOU for your response.

Actually I have replaced those parts. The original tops of the cable ends on the joystick came with plastic caps. There is a superseeded parts kit which only has polished cable ends, replacing the plastic caps. I had installed these about 1.5 years back.

 

[BubbaSam]

A common issue I have seen with Kioti cyls is worn or blown out internal piston seals. They use two u-cup seals facing apart (in the ones I have seen), sometimes one of the two are blown, allowing you to put up pressure successfully but down pressure not so much. May want to check them.

Hello WDCHyd,

THANK YOU for your reply and the excellent information. It makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately I am not well versed in hydraulics but a self taught programmer. Still my best friend (my Kioti CK30HST) and I have done amazing things through the years on our 13 acre farm here in MA... and still more to do.

I am about 1 hour south of you and will be contacting you. Read your BIO... thanks for the link.

 

[BubbaSam]

Don’t have a technical answer, but if it were me, I’d try unscrewing one end of both the bucket hoses, then screw them back in, retract all hydraulic cylinders (on the loader and 3pt) and then double check the fluid level.

Hello Seville009,

THANK YOU for your reply.

The gentleman who took my tractor for testing did say he unhooked one or both of the cylinders but not sure exactly what he found. Whatever it was or he did has made no difference, at least at this point.

 

[BubbaSam]

An update on my Front Wheels not lifting off the ground...

I rebuilt the boom cylinders with brand new cylinder kits. At first it seemed to work. Lifting is NO problem. Curling the bucket, putting it on the ground to lift the front wheels up... well, that is STILL the problem. It has raised them off the ground a couple of times but ONLY on the first attempt. If I try it multiple times... the 2nd or 3rd have the same results. I push the lever forward and it goes up very slowly and very little. Bring the lever back to neutral, push forward again and again, it goes up a little more very slowly and very little. If I keep doing that... well the tires will "eventually" be raised off the ground.

At this point I am starting to think that it might be the pump. I am going to have the pressure checked by a local tractor services company. Guess we'll see then. I also recently though it could be the control stik to the pump... that perhaps they need some sort of adjustment... kind of like adjusting a clutch cable on a motorcycle.

Thanks for reading this and I hope I have made it clear.

 

[Robin Veerman]

You mentioned hydraulic fluid in your original post. You have an HST tractor. I also have a CK30HST, albeit a MY 2014.
Is the oil in your tractor hydraulic fluid? If so, It needs to be Tractor Hydraulic-Transmission Fluid, as the same oil is providing hydraulic AND transmission operation. Picture is what I’ve installed at the first service.
Currently at 640 hours on my tractor with good results. This isn’t intended to turn into an oil thread, but I just want you to confirm that the oil “type” you installed is the correct oil for your tractor, irregardless of brand.

 

[BubbaSam]

You mentioned hydraulic fluid in your original post. You have an HST tractor. I also have a CK30HST, albeit a MY 2014.
Is the oil in your tractor hydraulic fluid? If so, It needs to be Tractor Hydraulic-Transmission Fluid, as the same oil is providing hydraulic AND transmission operation. Picture is what I’ve installed at the first service.
Currently at 640 hours on my tractor with good results. This isn’t intended to turn into an oil thread, but I just want you to confirm that the oil “type” you installed is the correct oil for your tractor, irregardless of brand.

Hello Robin,

THANK YOU for your post. What I did was literally call Kioti and asked "What type of hydraulic oil can be used in my CK30H. I was told "Any synthetic hydraulic oil". I took my manual to a local NAPA store and asked them if they could cross reference the list to some of their oil. That is what I used.

I supposed what you suggested could be the case, which I have NOT considered. So my tractor is now at a Kioti dealership having ALL fluids/lubricants replaced with filters, etc.

I told them about the issue and asked them to figure out why this was happening. My pump pressure is within spec. My flow rate is a little under the spec. They said, when they tried it out, the front wheels did lift off the ground "MOST" of the time. My question when I called to see where they were was "Why not ALWAYS". They really didn't have an answer.

BTW...I did use the Amsoil in my Ferris Zero Turn I picked up from another Kioti dealer who stated that is what they always use for HST units. Seems OK.

So I wonder, can a slightly low flow rate cause this? Anyone have any ideas?

 

[cioti]

Flow = speed, pressure = power. If you don't have the power to lift the front end, you don't have the pressure. If the pump pressure is good, then it's bypassing somewhere. Most likely the cylinder seals or the control valve. Cold oil is thicker than warm oil, so any sealing problems are going to get worse once it's had a few cycles.

Hydraulics are simple to troubleshoot, just messy. Personally, I'd disconnect the lower hoses from the cylinders, let the oil drain out, then try to curl down. If you start getting an increasing amount of oil coming out of the cylinders, the seals are bad. If not and it still won't curl down, pressure isn't making it to the cylinders. At that point I'd be looking at the valve bypassing internally, hoses collapsing internally or bad quick connects. If it does curl down with the bottom hose disconnected, you probably have a return line blockage, so again, valve, hoses, quick connects.

 

[BubbaSam]

Flow = speed, pressure = power. If you don't have the power to lift the front end, you don't have the pressure. If the pump pressure is good, then it's bypassing somewhere. Most likely the cylinder seals or the control valve. Cold oil is thicker than warm oil, so any sealing problems are going to get worse once it's had a few cycles.

Hydraulics are simple to troubleshoot, just messy. Personally, I'd disconnect the lower hoses from the cylinders, let the oil drain out, then try to curl down. If you start getting an increasing amount of oil coming out of the cylinders, the seals are bad. If not and it still won't curl down, pressure isn't making it to the cylinders. At that point I'd be looking at the valve bypassing internally, hoses collapsing internally or bad quick connects. If it does curl down with the bottom hose disconnected, you probably have a return line blockage, so again, valve, hoses, quick connects.

Hello Cioti,

Just wanted to THANK YOU for your input on this issue. It's been going on for several years. The tractor lifts full buckets of trap rock with no issue but still has a problem with lifting the wheels up. One other issue I ran into was lifting about 1,000 lbs of blocks for a retaining wall that we were building. My tractor is supposed to life just over 1,155 lbs yet it couldn't lift the 1,000 lbs. My friend has a Kioti 2510 that's about a year old and he lifted it with NO ISSUE AT ALL! I am still thinking it could be somehow in the pump area.

I have printed your suggestion and will be taking it to the dealer when I take it in for service very soon.

THANK YOU AGAIN!