WellWater and AIR>GRRRRR

[chopped]

Hello all,
I have a question and my opinion and would like to share it with anyone who has a responce.
My ptoblem was alot of air in my water stream in the mornings, This will be an artesian well, 130 foot deep, and pump set at about 120 feet.One inch line from a submersable pump.Pitless adapter and all using one inch black well pipe, double clamps at all connections.of cource a check valve in the pump, which is about 12 years old. the whole system is in 1980.
Ok, so I did up the pitless adater end and replace it with a new one.The older style had a leatehr gasket ,where the new one has an 'o' ring.It was apparent it wa leaking at the inside of the adapter as I could see slight bubbles and moisture at the fitting when it was pumping.So its all been replaced.And it has been ok for about a week or week and half.
Now Im getting slightly more air int he system overnight.:thumbdown:
anyways my thought now is that maybe the insdie check valve is also weak and is allowing more water than 'normal' or allowing less hold back of the water and the check valve itself is at fault also.
????? opinions?
The check valve isnt to difficult to change out so I think thta will be my next step .
Thanks..eveyone..

 

[Egon]

Try holding a lit match by the faucet in the morning. Your air may be gases entrained with the water. A situation that is quite common in certain areas.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

If the line to your pump is plastic, and is of 1980 vintage, there's a good chance that it is cracked and allowing the water to seep back into well. This would result in a "head" of air above the pump, which could cause the result you indicate.

 

[chopped]

AHAH yes thats a consideration as the inlet line (from pitless to the pump) I snapped right off.(it didnt bend),So thats a new section.I wonder if Lowes or Home depot have legnths longer than 100 foot aval. I shall check. thanks

 

[chopped]

Im assuming this split and leak would have to be above the water level as if it were below it wouldnt have air to seep in.?

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Im assuming this split and leak would have to be above the water level as if it were below it wouldnt have air to seep in.?

Hmmm. I think your assumption is correct; however it might depend on how deep your well is. I know there is a hydraulic phenomenon that exists when you attempt to "lift" water with a pump that "sucks" instead of "pushes" that limits the "lift" to something like 32 feet? I know that pumping water upward using this method required that it be done in stages to overcome this phenomenon.

It might be that if the leak is below the water line, the water will drop a certain number of feet before it creates enough vacuum to stop the water from dropping down. Pardon my lack of eloquence here; I'm sure we have an engineer or two here that can explain it much better than I can. In any case, I would replace the whole length of pipe, because you will probably have to pull the pump anyway.

 

[Raspy]

It sounds like you only have one check valve and that it's at the bottom of the well near the pump. These are pretty much guaranteed to leak some and when they do there is a vacuum on the standing head above it at the surface. Especially if no water has been used for a while, like overnight.

This vacuum will draw air in through any weakness in the system. The pressure tank can hide this problem unless it has failed. If it has it can allow air in. The pitless is another spot, but there could be others.

You should have a check valve every 25' or so down the pipe to the pump.

You also might be getting air at the pump if your well is going dry and the pump is right at the waterline.

I don't understand how yours can be an "artisian" well if it's 130 feet deep an has a pump at 120 feet. Artisian means the water is at the surface, doesn't it????

 

[Egon]

If you're pump isn't cycling at times of no water usage you probably don't have a leak.


Do a pressure test!!!:

Light a match?

 

[chopped]

It sounds like you only have one check valve and that it's at the bottom of the well near the pump. These are pretty much guaranteed to leak some and when they do there is a vacuum on the standing head above it at the surface. Especially if no water has been used for a while, like overnight.

This vacuum will draw air in through any weakness in the system. The pressure tank can hide this problem unless it has failed. If it has it can allow air in. The pitless is another spot, but there could be others.

You should have a check valve every 25' or so down the pipe to the pump.

You also might be getting air at the pump if your well is going dry and the pump is right at the waterline.

I don't understand how yours can be an "artisian" well if it's 130 feet deep an has a pump at 120 feet. Artisian means the water is at the surface, doesn't it????

I have a standard 1 inch check valve on the manifold by the captive air tank. My thought was if this was 'weak' it could allow the pitless to slightly leak if it was going to ,(even thought its new).I hadnt thought of a check valve every 25 feet. Around here I dont think its the norm at all.Ive worked on 6 or so different wells in my days and none had a check valve inline up the hose but It would make sence if I have to splice or if I replace the hose with 100 foot coils.
On the artisan part.Thats what they are called around here if they arent 'dug' wells.
I read this article.
HowStuffWorks "Artesian Well,"
I know that it was a pounded well (not drilled) and the static level is about 18 foot down. if that helps..
maybe im mis calling it what it is?

 

[tcartwri]

I just went through something similar with the pitless flange. I 'assumed' these castings are all a standard size. They are not. When I finally compared them side by side, there was enough difference in them that the new one would not seat properly in the saddle. Only three times in and out of the casing to figure this out.....

 

[ironnut]

Chopped,

If I read your original post and post #9, you have 2 check valves, one down at the pump level and another at the pressure tank?

Assuming that your system does not cycle when no water is being used, then I would suspect that the check valve at the pump level is leaking. That would allow the 130 foot column of water to leak back into the well after the pump shuts off. You may have a small leak in the pipe from the check valve on the manifold by the captive air tank down into the well. That would allow air to fill into the pipe going down into the well. When the pump starts it forces this air into the system. Even if there are no leaks, the atmospheric pressure can at most support a column of water about 32 feet high. Any dissolved gases in the well water will come out and a great deal of water vapor as the water level in the pipe going down into the well drops and distance from the surface to the water level is greater than 32 feet. Granted the water vapor will pretty much condense back into liquid but the un-dissolved gases will stay un-dissolved as the water is pushed into the system (e.g. the pressure tank and faucets).

Can you see or hear any leaks in the well casing when the pump is running? If the pipe going down to the pump has leaks in it it will most likely be near the static water level.

gordon

 

[chopped]

I just went through something similar with the pitless flange. I 'assumed' these castings are all a standard size. They are not. When I finally compared them side by side, there was enough difference in them that the new one would not seat properly in the saddle. Only three times in and out of the casing to figure this out.....

I hear ya. I asumed they would be very similiar, thats whay I had to replace th complete unit. And the new one has an 'o' ring in them as opposed to my original that had the leather gasket 'ring' Ive read a few places where the new gaskets have 'blown' out.I dont kow if they mean they actually blow to pieces or that they wouldnt seal.It is possible that it isnt sealing as it should.I havent taken it back out yet, but I did screw onto it and wiggle it a bit hoping it might seat.
You said three times in and out. what did you finally do to get it to seat?

 

[chopped]

Chopped,

If I read your original post and post #9, you have 2 check valves, one down at the pump level and another at the pressure tank?

Assuming that your system does not cycle when no water is being used, then I would suspect that the check valve at the pump level is leaking. That would allow the 130 foot column of water to leak back into the well after the pump shuts off. You may have a small leak in the pipe from the check valve on the manifold by the captive air tank down into the well. That would allow air to fill into the pipe going down into the well. When the pump starts it forces this air into the system. Even if there are no leaks, the atmospheric pressure can at most support a column of water about 32 feet high. Any dissolved gases in the well water will come out and a great deal of water vapor as the water level in the pipe going down into the well drops and distance from the surface to the water level is greater than 32 feet. Granted the water vapor will pretty much condense back into liquid but the un-dissolved gases will stay un-dissolved as the water is pushed into the system (e.g. the pressure tank and faucets).

Can you see or hear any leaks in the well casing when the pump is running? If the pipe going down to the pump has leaks in it it will most likely be near the static water level.

gordon

Yes your correct on the check valves.Of cource the one on the pump is original and is as old as the pump ,but the one closer to the tank.(on the manifold) is from 1980 so I do wonder if maybe thats at fault.the way its set up, i could add a new one just before it and have the two of them right together.I could see if that makes a difference.Im assuming having two in a row would be a problem. but im still not confident that the pitless saddle is sealing as it should.So one thought is if it isnt, and the check valve at the tank is the least bit weak, then the two problems could be working together.?
As far as the leaks, nothing obvious....when its all at rest i can see a very slight movement of the water surface. but water does come in and drop onto the surface..so that might not be from a leak above in the water.
And when it kicks in I dont see any 'spraying' of the water .So this leak must be very very small.
its could be so many things and hard to pinpoint for sure.Im bothered that it was fine for the two weeks or so and seems to have returned. but not quite as bad.

 

[chopped]

Can you see or hear any leaks in the well casing when the pump is running? If the pipe going down to the pump has leaks in it it will most likely be near the static water level.

gordon[/QUOTE]

Am i right to think if the pipe going down had a leak it would probably be above the static level?I consider maybe pulling it and cutting it off and run it shorter and then add back onto it..

 

[SPIKER]

most submersible pumps using the foot or internal pump check valve will only cycle when water pressure is released from the pressure tank and flows out. now if you have a 2nd check valve between the pump and the pressure than then the situation could happen if the pitiless adapter or pump foot check valve leaks and lets the vacuum pull at the pitiless and suck air in at that point.

Most well pumps around here dont have that extra / 2nd check valve so pressure from the well tank is kept against the pitiless and at the well pump check valve so there is less likely of a leak. now if there is the pump will cycle on & off regularly when you are not using water. one way to check this is to run water till well pump is on let it finish running to fill up to the pressure switch shutoff and then kill the circuit breaker to the well pump. check the pressure (should have functioning pressure gauge at the well tank on the water line some have on on the air pressure side of the bladder too. ) wait overnight and check the pressure if it is down then you have a leak in line someplace between the pump and the facets.
often there is a shutoff valve between the pressure tank and the well head pipe this would be closed to check the leak between the pump, pitiless & that shutoff valve.


Mark

 

[zzvyb6]

I had exactly the same problem as originally posted. Well driller added 5' of length to the well pipe and problem was solved. Water table dropped because of ? (my guess is a few new homes on the road and now some all day sprinkler systems running and a swimming pool being filled, etc.) .

 

[chopped]

but my static level has remained the same for all these years.

 

[tcartwri]

I hear ya. I asumed they would be very similiar, thats whay I had to replace th complete unit. And the new one has an 'o' ring in them as opposed to my original that had the leather gasket 'ring' Ive read a few places where the new gaskets have 'blown' out.I dont kow if they mean they actually blow to pieces or that they wouldnt seal.It is possible that it isnt sealing as it should.I havent taken it back out yet, but I did screw onto it and wiggle it a bit hoping it might seat.
You said three times in and out. what did you finally do to get it to seat?

I finally put the old one back on. It had a small knick in the o-ring, but there was no way I was digging out the saddle fitting. If it's leaking at this point, it should spray water when under pressure. A flashlight on a tether will let you see what's going on.

 

[chopped]

good point im going to look further. BTW I looked at a new pitless at lowes and the box was opened, I looked at the o ring and it was slip, a piece was missing.Im not sure why? or if it might have been a return that someone had broken.Are the 'o' rings a common ring?

 

[chopped]

I suppose and wonder, If I wre to put a check valve in on the pitless adapter (inside end) that would give me an indication if its leaking back from the coupler or the hose leading down to the pump.
hmmm