well pressure and....

[farmerpsv]

Hey all,
I bought and restored an old victorian farm 4 years ago. one thing i never really addressed was the well. it's an old drilled well, and according to the neighbors it's never run dry. being an old tobacco farm, i had the water tested (in '99) for about 150 things and the water is great, been drinking it for 4 years. 6 months ago we relocated to another farm and i have a buyer for this one. when i went to check things out, i noticed a great deal of rust in the water. thinking back, i remembered when we moved in there was alot of rust in the water (the house had been abandoned for years when i bought it). i can't remember how long it took, but the water eventually cleared up, and by the time the water was tested, it was gone. i recently put a whole house filter on the well, it helped some. i have two theories about the rust. one: the well itself, being old, is a metal pipe, therefore the rust. two: the expansion tank bladder has a leak and i may be getting rust from the inside of the tank. the water pressure has never been great, we just lived with it. is water pressure a function of the pump or the expansion tank? i assume that in part it would have to have something to do with the tank since you get pressure with the well turned off. i also guess there's a backflow valve in the tank, but once the pump goes on you're really getting pressure from the pump? is this right? any thoughts on what i'm dealing with here? i want this to be right for the new buyer.
thanks,
paul

 

[herbenus]

You didn't mention the water pipes themselves as a source for the rust. That would have been my guess. Pipes both buried and in the house. If you confirm you have a tank problem, a tank is a small cost compared to selling the place. Others here can better explain how to test the tank. You also might check out the Water forum at Countrybynet for other tips

 

[farmerpsv]

Hi Herbenus,
the plumbing in the house is all new (pex) as part of the restoration, the tank or well are the only two possible sources.
thanks,
paul

 

[timb]

I always thought that heavy rust in the well water originated in the ground - actual groundwater contamination.

 

[herbenus]

My first well was high in iron content. Water was usually clear, but as I understand it, the iron can turn to oxide with time, especially if exposed to air. This is a bigger problem in the old tanks with air on top of water. Bladder type tanks should eliminate it. Chlorine can make it come out. Also, water sitting in toilet tanks would be exposed to air. But I suspect something in well is rusting up: the casing or the conductor pipe.

 

[BubbaJr]

<font color="blue"> is water pressure a function of the pump or the expansion tank? </font>

Water pressure in the house is regulated by how much pressure is in the holding tank. Some tanks have a schrader valve (like on a tire) on them that will allow you to add some air in the bladder chamber, increasing the water pressure. The pump pressure will put the water in the tank until the preset pressure has been reached in the holding tank. Then as you use water, the pressure drops to the point that the pump is activated and pumps more water in the tank. The air chamber in the top of the tank will pressurize the system so you have water flow. If you have a leak in the bladder you would pobably not have any water pressure at all as both sides would have equal pressure. Most likely the low pressure is caused by the tank needing a shot of air.
Hope this helps you out.

 

[TresCrows]

"I always thought that heavy rust in the well water originated in the ground - actual groundwater contamination."

No, not exactly right. Hematite and several other ferrous minerals are common constituents of sedimentary rocks. The hematite acts as a cement holding the grains togehter and will precipitate out in the intergranular voids. Other common "cements" are calcium. If the well is in such an area that is rich in ferrous precipitates the water will have an iron taste to it, will often leave a rust brown stain on concrete and the hematite will precipitate in the pipes and plumbing as well. In most cases it is not harmfull to human consumption. Other calciums and chlorides etc can result in salty tasting water. In any case--it is NOT CONTAMINATION--it is a natural occurence. My well water leaves calcium chloride deposits when it evaporates but it is potable. A few miles from here their is a facies change--a geologic term for a change in depositional environment that resulted in a different rock type but of the same geologic age. That area is very sandy and hematite is the major cement constituent. Places that have sprinkler systems have stained sidewalks and drives. J

 

[farmerpsv]

Bubba,
thanks for the info, that all makes sense, i'll give that a try.

J,
the water doesn't really have high iron content. we havn't had any of the staining over the years indicating iron, the water does leave some pretty heavy deposits, just not the staining characteristic of high iron. i'm certain the rust is not from the water but part of the system. given Bubbas' info, i think we're narrowing the source to the actual pipe that forms the well itself...which would explain why the water clarifies over time.
paul

 

[Molerj]

I think the rusty water could be the result of the water settling out in the pressure tank. Now, when you start to use it you stir up what is in the tank. I don't think it is caused by the casing, just the water itself. The pressure is regulated by the cut off switch on the pump. Most pumps are set to 20/40. A jet pump has a check valve/foot valve at the bottom of the pipes in the well. Also when pressurizing the bladder in a tank, shut the pump off, drain all the pressure off, fill the bladder thru the shcrader valve until you are two pounds lower than the cut-off pressure. You will notice if your tank is waterlogged by the pump kicking on & off when you draw a small amount of water. Depending on tank size, you should be able to draw 3-5 gallons of water before the pump kicks on. Enough rambling for now...

 

[farmerpsv]

Ron,
This isn't rambling, it's the kind of information and experience i new i would find here. i did put the filter between the pump and the tank, and it's red with rust. yet i am still getting rust in the house, after the tank. maybe it's both /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. i also theorize that if the tank bladder were ruptured, wouldn't it stop working? question: does the bladder hold water or air? which is being pressurized, the bladder or the tank. i had been thinking that the bladder held the water and it expands and contracts accordingly and that adding air pressure to the tank puts extra pressure on the bladder...do i have it reversed?

thanks for the thoughts,
paul

 

[Richard]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( i did put the filter between the pump and the tank )</font>


Just my .02 here, I asked my well driller where I should put my filter and he in no uncertain terms told me to NOT put it between pump and tank. I never asked why, but I speculate his thinking was the pump could burst the filter with unregulated pressure, where-as if I put the filter AFTER the tank, it would get no more than "household pressure".

Just my .02.. if I'm wrong, I'll happily refund back to you, TWICE your monthly TBN subscription charges /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Richard

 

[farmerpsv]

Heck Richard,
now there's a thought /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. with such a guarantee, i can't lose /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. looks like i have some work to do.
paul

 

[WVBill]

Paul:

'coupe of thoughts:

The red color you are seeing in your filter and fixtures may be clay sediment not rust. The fact that you said your fixtures aren't getting rust stains leads me to that conclusion. I have a lot of red clay sediment in my well water and my water tested very low for rust so that's been my experience.

I put my filters (two parallel whole-house) in line after my pressure tank and before my water softner. One reason is that it let me tap off the outside faucets before the filters so I'm not filtering water that just goes back into the ground watering the lawn.

If you're still getting red stuff in the house it could be that it's still being flushed out of the tank, pipes, faucet screens, etc. Take off the little screens at your faucet fixtures and clean the red gunk out of them.

Your idea of how the bladder works is pretty close. This link to Flexcon , a well tank manufacturer gives a good illustration of how a bladder tank operates. The bladder separates the air and water in the tank. Because the bladder is flexible, the whole tank (air, and water) are at the same pressure. If the bladder ruptures, the tank will continue to work - for a while, but eventually the air will mix in with the water and go out the faucets and your tank will become water-logged. When this happens, the pump cycles on and off very quickly. Also, you will hear a lot of "gurgling" from the tank when the pump is running. (I know this because it happened to me.)

The whole purpose of the pressure tank is to keep the pump from coming on EVERY time you turn on a faucet.

On stopping the red clay sediment problem, I was told to get the well driller to come back out and raise the pump up off the bottom of the well. I never did that because we were in a drought and I wasn't sure how much raising I could do. This past winter/spring/summer we're more than 18" above average precip and I've noticed significantly less red sediment collection in my filters.

 

[farmerpsv]

WVBill,
thanks for the input. i'm still pretty sure this is rust instead of clay. it has a distinct smell, plus if it was sediment i wouldn't expect it to clarify in time...which it did before when i first bought the place. it is sounding like my tank has problems. the pump pretty much goes on immediately when i turn the water on and pressure is low,which means i may be just using the pressure from the pump. looks like the tank needs replacing? it also seems there are 2 issues, rust from two sources, the tank and the casing of the well.
paul

 

[cbh]

I think you are risking damage to your well pump by putting your filters before the bladder tank, or to be more specific, before the pressure switch. If the filters plug, the pump will not shut off, because the pressure switch after the clogged filter will not sense the rising pressure. This condition, known as "deadheading", will eventually destroy the pump. I would relocate the filter ASAP.

 

[farmerpsv]

cbh,
yep, thanks, wasn't thinking when i did that /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif. my well house is rather confined, so i just stuck it in the most convenient place. i actually havn't used a filter for the 4 years i've been living there, this was just kind of a temporary fix till the water clarified. still, i want this to be right before the new owners take possession of the place. they did an inspection and nothing was picked up, maybe i'm just going overboard, i just want to make sure.
paul

 

[Molerj]

Hi Paul, You've got pretty good info so far. Before buying a new tank, try to drain it like I said before & recharge it. You will need to open a faucet or whatever to let air in the tank so it will drain. Remember to shut the pump off first. Use your compressor, it is easier than a hand pump. If your cut-in pressure is 20 lbs., charge it to 18. As for the filter, I installed the filter between the pump & the tank. I was trying to capture the rusty stuff (iron) before it went to the tank. In my case, my pressure switch is located on the pump (this is a jet pump), so if the filter would plug solid (it never has) the pump would still shut off. Haven't had any problems with it since(20 yrs.). I also have a fiberglass tank which is probably twice as much $ as a steel tank. Let us know how you make out.

 

[kiphorn]

I just moved into my house and have a well for the first time. I had a "problem" with the pressure petering out before the pump kicked on but I solved that by correcting the pressure in the air tank.

I still have poor pressure at my outside faucet. The inside faucets are fine. The cut in/out is 40/60. I'm not sure what the pressure was when I had city water but it seemed higher than what i have now.

What could be up with my outside faucets?

Kip

 

[Molerj]

Hi Kip, the reason your pressure seems lower with the well water is probably because of the drop in pressure to 40 lbs. until the pump kicks on & slowly builds back up. With your city water the pressure is more or less constant, probably around 50 to 60 lbs. As for the pressure problem with the outside faucets, I would suspect a restriction in the line or they may have branched off to the outside faucets with a smaller line (but I doubt that). I have also had a valve that would not let the full flow thru do to corrosion or faulty valve. I would shut off the line to the outside faucet, remove the valve & see what kind of flow comes out of the line. Hope this helps out.

 

[DavidJ]

<font color="blue"> What could be up with my outside faucets? </font>

I've bought a few outside faucets that had a very small opening even when fully opened. They would only let a trickle through. You should pull one and check for obstructions and the actual valve design.