Welding cable question

[Superduper]

So I decided to make some extra cables and ordered some supplies from weldingsupply.com. Made a pair of extra cables and decided to move on to repairing an existing cable.

Removed the plug and electrode holder on old cable and found that the bare end has a copper ring that was crimped, then secured to clamp/stinger using the hex set screw.

My question: The new cables that I just made was assembed by simply tightening the setscrew against the bare strands. Does anyone know if this is adequate or even proper, or must I first crimp the bare end with a copper ring (don't even know where you would buy that) prior to securing it to the clamp and stinger?

Thanks.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

If the end didn't come with that copper filler you might not need it. I would make sure that the end of the wire is seated into the connector as far as possible then tighten down the set screw. Although I just made up some cables for another system where we run 80 to 100 amps. Those connectors were a bit large for the cable that I had. So I stripped some solid copper wire and wrapped it around the main cable kind of like a spring. Then I soldered that together. It filled in a lot of the extra space and helped the set screw bite in a little harder.

 

[Superduper]

Treemonkey: I didn't realize that the copper ring was a filler. I presumed it's purpose was to maintain the integrity of the strands, which are clearly finer than most wire cables.

Also, is solder an acceptable material to be used on welding cables or wiring of welders in general? I wonder if the low melting point characteristics of solder could be an issue.

 

[tommu56]

Treemonkey: I didn't realize that the copper ring was a filler. I presumed it's purpose was to maintain the integrity of the strands, which are clearly finer than most wire cables.

Also, is solder an acceptable material to be used on welding cables or wiring of welders in general? I wonder if the low melting point characteristics of solder could be an issue.

Don't tin the wires before you put them in connector they rely on surface area to to carry the current if any thing wrap them in a thin copper or brass material like shim stock that will contain the wires and deform with the screw to make good contact.

tom

 

[Matt_Jr]

Don't tin the wires before you put them in connector they rely on surface area to to carry the current if any thing wrap them in a thin copper or brass material like shim stock that will contain the wires and deform with the screw to make good contact.

tom

-I have fixed mig welder ground clamps by soldering the ground wire into a copper eye loop and bolting to the clamp. Although electrons use the surface area of wire to flow, if you use rosin core solder the elecrons will flow through the rosin and continue to flow outside the copper strands and lead solder. The extra lead that is soaked into the wire will also act as a heat sink so that the wire doesn't overheat. Soldering is abslotutely the best way to conduct electricity from one wire to another. I have seen many connections fail because of crimps. All the wires don't always get squeezed together which causes some strands to carry more current to make up for the ones in the crimp that don't make good contact. This causes more heating and cooling of the crimp area which causes it to come loose...and needing repaired again.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

-I The extra lead that is soaked into the wire will also act as a heat sink so that the wire doesn't overheat. Soldering is abslotutely the best way to conduct electricity from one wire to another. I have seen many connections fail because of crimps. All the wires don't always get squeezed together which causes some strands to carry more current to make up for the ones in the crimp that don't make good contact. This causes more heating and cooling of the crimp area which causes it to come loose...and needing repaired again.

That is the reason I soldered the copper solid wire to the welding wire is to incorporate all of the strands together at that point. To keep from heating wires that are not making as good a contact. Especially as they age and oxidize under the connector. And to fill in the large void that was inside of the connector. When the set screw was seated inside there were wires that were getting crushed and some going into the loose void. After tinning the end and wrapping it with the solid wire I had a much more solid contact with the set screw. I am not sure if it is standard practice. They do use copper strips as fillers and strand holders in high current applications.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Matt jr is right on. I used to repair electric forklifts that used a lot of 2/0 cable. These systems were in excess of 300 amps at 36v. We always soldered the ends on. The only thing you have to be careful of is a cold solder joint. Nothing better than a solder joint, properly done.

 

[pat32rf]

A good solder joint is the best way to go, but tinning the end of the cable then trying to tighten the set-screw into it can be counterproductive as it no longer allows the conductors to "mash" under the screw. A few heating and cooling cycles and it could work loose. Better to fill the oversized void with more copper, then TIGHTEN it with a set screw that has been slightly greased..

 

[tommu56]

A good solder joint is the best way to go, but tinning the end of the cable then trying to tighten the set-screw into it can be counterproductive as it no longer allows the conductors to "mash" under the screw. A few heating and cooling cycles and it could work loose. Better to fill the oversized void with more copper, then TIGHTEN it with a set screw that has been slightly greased..

I agree

We have had alot of failures (heating of cables) on terminal strip were they were tinned then put in to connector screw only hits on a amall area of circle at top and bottomof connector.

A complete solder joint is not aproblem I have used copper pipe flattened and drilled and soldered on for welding lead lugs with out a problem.

tom

 

[AlanB]

I am in the short peice of copper pipe camp and solder (sometimes) as well.

 

[jsborn]

Lead tin solder melts at 650 to 750 oF if your leads are getting hot enough to be deformed by heat you have more problems than just a soldered connection. ...

I strip the end tin the conductor and tighten the set screw and have had no problems for years.

 

[Pennsylvania Weldor]

I never use solder on welding cable ends. Once the insulation is trimmed back I wrap a copper strip (available at welding supply houses) around the cable strands, then tighten the set screw. Solder could soften and possibly allow a lose cable end when using high amperage settings. Not to mention the possibility of solder oozing around the threads of the screw making it difficult to remove.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Lead tin solder melts at 650 to 750 oF if your leads are getting hot enough to be deformed by heat you have more problems than just a soldered connection. ...

I strip the end tin the conductor and tighten the set screw and have had no problems for years.

The problem is differential expansion. The tinned and crimped or setscrewed wire gets crushed a little more in the thermal cycling. This loosens the joint and give more heating. It worsens. Do not tin and crimp or screw. Either just solder it or just crimp it well. Its harder to get a good crimp joint than a good solder joint, so soldering is usually best.
larry

 

[cityfarma]

I was always told not to solder crimped cables. The reason was that the multiple, usually very thin, conductors broke due to bending of the cable. When the join of a soldered joint is flexed there is only one point of bend - the junction of the solder. This point is always bent and finally breaks. On a crimp only join the wires flex and slide over each other and hence bend at different points each time. This leads to a longer lasting join. A properly crimped joint has very good conductivity. So use the proper crimp tools and don't solder. Just my humble opinion.

Cityfarma

 

[pat32rf]

Very good point Cityfarma, especially with flexible welding or battery jumper cables. The whole trick is, like you say, PROPERLY crimped, not just flattened with a hammer....
I used to do a LOT of service work on water heaters that came with connectors crimped on #8 wire (the 7 strand variety) No vibration to speak of but LOTS of thermal cycling. Normal load was 50amps, heavy for #8 and we had a lot of burn-offs. When I started soldering the crimped connectors on the problem went away, but like I mentioned, heavier strands with no movement. In that case, soldering (not just tinning)gave a better job

 

[SPYDERLK]

Very good point Cityfarma, especially with flexible welding or battery jumper cables. The whole trick is, like you say, PROPERLY crimped, not just flattened with a hammer....
I used to do a LOT of service work on water heaters that came with connectors crimped on #8 wire (the 7 strand variety) No vibration to speak of but LOTS of thermal cycling. Normal load was 50amps, heavy for #8 and we had a lot of burn-offs. When I started soldering the crimped connectors on the problem went away, but like I mentioned, heavier strands with no movement. In that case, soldering (not just tinning)gave a better job

Very good points about soldering and crimping, alone or in combination. All joints in a mobile area benefit from a strain relief point that stabilizes the joint and causes any bending to occur where the insulation surrounds the wire, and in the case of solder, beyond where solder has wicked up under the insulation and stiffened the wire. Crimpingdoesnt present this complication, but its more difficult to get the highly consolidated and tight crimp necessary for conduction quality to compete with soldering. One thing that I find very important on set screw crimps is that the set screw must be a ball nose type to consolidate the wires in the socket and avoid cuting them. They should then be tightened again after the 1st few heavy uses.
larry

 

[Superduper]

Thanks for all the great advice guys. Since the wire ends on the Miller cables were exactly like that: Strands wrapped with a copper ring, then crimped and secured with setscrew at the crimp, I guess I'll follow their example as the proper way to go. Presumably, Miller knows how to build welding cables.

Now, does anyone know the exact name for those little copper rings (or strips) and where they can be purchased?

 

[Danno1]

.

They're called ferrules. Prob McMaster-Carr has them. Or an electrical supply house would too.

.

 

[copperdog]

I just took 1/2" copper tubing, 3/4" long and split it.
Wrapped it around the cable like a furrel and inserted into the clamp and tightened the screw.
I did not buy a furrel.