laen64
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I'm Preparing to build a home. What are your opinions on Tankless - VS - conventional water heaters? 
Water Heater Selection
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AndyMA
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I'm Preparing to build a home. What are your opinions on Tankless - VS - conventional water heaters?
Personally absolutely go tankless. I recently changed from a 50 gallon tanked propane heater that was out of hot water after 2 showers to a Rheem 74 series tankless that provides endless hot water and saves you over 30% a year on energy costs. Tanked hot water heaters are obsolete technology that just waste energy keeping a tank of hot water hot. The water from the Rheem tankless is also absolutely constant temperature and is only heated to 118 degrees or what ever I set on the digital remote control, The tanked water varied in temp during a shower and I had to keep adjusting. As you can see I am a big fan of tankless.
PS I bought my Rheem on eBay for about 1/2 the local price.
Andy
Treemonkey1000
Veteran Member
I agree with tankless philosophy and it's savings. What I have seen on older units is they restrict your water flow to heat that water.That made it hard to get a lot of volume of water.
So get a larger unit to heat the water. One advantage of a big water tank is that you have a large tank of water for use in an emergency like tornados or earthquake if your water supply is cut off.
So get a larger unit to heat the water. One advantage of a big water tank is that you have a large tank of water for use in an emergency like tornados or earthquake if your water supply is cut off.
Erik_in_Hoyt
Platinum Member
since I use a 98% efficient pilotless 50 gal tank for domestic hot water and the heat coil in my furnace, I chose not to go with tankless.
OTOH, if you go with tankless, get the one that uses a waterwheel to spark the ignition rather than one that uses wall current - that way if your power goes out, you still have hot water. (unless you're on a well)
OTOH, if you go with tankless, get the one that uses a waterwheel to spark the ignition rather than one that uses wall current - that way if your power goes out, you still have hot water. (unless you're on a well)
Pirwin21
Member
I recently built a home and used a Bosch Powerstar AE-125 unit. I got mine off of ebay and it was just about as cheap as a tank. So far, I have been very pleased with this unit. The endless hot water is very nice. Be careful though, if you have people living at your house that take "endless" showers, you might actually see a rise in your electric bill.
ampsucker
Platinum Member
i'll lay a couple of thoughts on ya....
i personally believe the tankless popularlity is based on a lot of hype.
first, they require a significantly higher btu input. it is not uncommon for a tankless to run 180,000 btu input where a regular tankstyle may run 40,000. in a retrofit situation, going to a tankless will not only require a larger gas supply line but also a larger gas meter outside the home. this is because most residential meters are rated for 250,000 btus or so. if you have a gas fired furnace, theres 80-120K btus. if you are going with gas to save money, you probably have a gas cooktop/oven and a gas dryer. so, you can see that your originally correctly sized meter will not handle the tankless demand. add up the cost to change out the meter, replumb the line and install the tankless unit and payback period is not realistic. if you are building new, this is a lot easier and less work up front, but still needs to be factored into the payback equation.
second, to get the current 30% tax rebate, you have to install a qualifying system. most of these are either geothermal heat pump or solar systems costing 2,000 or more. MOST tankless systems, IF they save you money, do so by running on demand and not heating the tank of water. that doesn't mean they have a high efficiency rating when operating. ie, a significant percentage of btu's still goes up the extra large flue vent during the time they are on. this means you need to buy a high end tankless unit to get a high enough efficiency to get the 30% tax rebate. there goes the payback period again.
lastly, the tankless unit are being marketed as a one size fits all solution. they are not. they are best for empty nesters or single folks who are gone all day and only need hot water in the morning for showers and then not again until the next morning or something like that. a situation like this is where you MIGHT make a good savings by not having to heat a tank of water all day. if you for example have kids, do a lot of hot laundry or dish washing or have people home using hot water during the day, a tank model is the way to go. they will heat the water and have it ready for you and do so with less overall btu usage.
the newer, better insulated tankless units loose very little heat. i was recently away for 4 days weekend. turned the heater down all the way before leaving. when i returned four days later, i still had 110 degree water (down from 120). that's pretty good in my book.
one last tidbit. i know for a family of three with one being a toddler and doing lots of laundry that our bill to heat our hot water runs about 30 dollars a month on average. we use 4500 gallons a month of water. that was with our older 80% effecient tank style hot water heater that probably cost $350 when new. IF i was able to get a 95% efficient unit, i would be improving my water heating bill by 15% or saving $4.50 a month. over a typical life of say 20 years, the most i could spend on a new hot water system to BREAK EVEN is $1080. try to find a 95% efficient hot water heater of ANY type installed for less than 1100 bucks.
think about it. is it really worth it or is it all hype?
amp
i personally believe the tankless popularlity is based on a lot of hype.
first, they require a significantly higher btu input. it is not uncommon for a tankless to run 180,000 btu input where a regular tankstyle may run 40,000. in a retrofit situation, going to a tankless will not only require a larger gas supply line but also a larger gas meter outside the home. this is because most residential meters are rated for 250,000 btus or so. if you have a gas fired furnace, theres 80-120K btus. if you are going with gas to save money, you probably have a gas cooktop/oven and a gas dryer. so, you can see that your originally correctly sized meter will not handle the tankless demand. add up the cost to change out the meter, replumb the line and install the tankless unit and payback period is not realistic. if you are building new, this is a lot easier and less work up front, but still needs to be factored into the payback equation.
second, to get the current 30% tax rebate, you have to install a qualifying system. most of these are either geothermal heat pump or solar systems costing 2,000 or more. MOST tankless systems, IF they save you money, do so by running on demand and not heating the tank of water. that doesn't mean they have a high efficiency rating when operating. ie, a significant percentage of btu's still goes up the extra large flue vent during the time they are on. this means you need to buy a high end tankless unit to get a high enough efficiency to get the 30% tax rebate. there goes the payback period again.
lastly, the tankless unit are being marketed as a one size fits all solution. they are not. they are best for empty nesters or single folks who are gone all day and only need hot water in the morning for showers and then not again until the next morning or something like that. a situation like this is where you MIGHT make a good savings by not having to heat a tank of water all day. if you for example have kids, do a lot of hot laundry or dish washing or have people home using hot water during the day, a tank model is the way to go. they will heat the water and have it ready for you and do so with less overall btu usage.
the newer, better insulated tankless units loose very little heat. i was recently away for 4 days weekend. turned the heater down all the way before leaving. when i returned four days later, i still had 110 degree water (down from 120). that's pretty good in my book.
one last tidbit. i know for a family of three with one being a toddler and doing lots of laundry that our bill to heat our hot water runs about 30 dollars a month on average. we use 4500 gallons a month of water. that was with our older 80% effecient tank style hot water heater that probably cost $350 when new. IF i was able to get a 95% efficient unit, i would be improving my water heating bill by 15% or saving $4.50 a month. over a typical life of say 20 years, the most i could spend on a new hot water system to BREAK EVEN is $1080. try to find a 95% efficient hot water heater of ANY type installed for less than 1100 bucks.
think about it. is it really worth it or is it all hype?
amp
ampsucker
Platinum Member
i forgot to mention that one of the most important things you can do to save on water heating when building a new house to to properly design and insulate the water delivery system. this means centrally locating the heater, insulating all hot water pipes in the walls or slab and using pipes of the correct size to eliminate dead time or the amount of time the water has to run before getting hot at the faucet farthest from the heater. most folks err on the side of larger pipes is better for more flow, but this is usually overkill and just makes it take more water and time to get hot water from the tap. it is also better to use a slightly larger central line with multiple smaller tees to serve each room (kitchen, baths, bar, etc.) than trying to daisy chain all the rooms together in sequence.
you wouldn't design a natural gas or central heating system this way, but you would be surprised what builders and plumbers try to get away with thinking their work will be hidden and before the home owner ever notices it they will have their money and be long gone.
amp
you wouldn't design a natural gas or central heating system this way, but you would be surprised what builders and plumbers try to get away with thinking their work will be hidden and before the home owner ever notices it they will have their money and be long gone.
amp
Pirwin21
Member
I agree that tank heaters are certainly more efficient than they used to be, but the novelty of the tankless heater is it only runs when needed. I grew up in a house that had a tank heater and for the last year, have had a tankless heater. I have noticed basically no difference in water temperature fluctuating and the amount of time it takes to get hot water between the two. The biggest benefit is that my wife and I can both shower in the morning without worrying about running out of hot water. I actually think that if you have several kids, it would provide the same benefit in that everyone can shower without worrying about the hot water. So long as this novelty of having eternal hot waters isn't abused, it is absolutely more efficient than tank heaters. They also make tankless heaters that are powered by electric. They do use a lot of current while in use, but the heater is only on for 45 minutes a day tops, whereas the tank heater is slowing using electric for 24 hours a day. I agree with previous posts that this application is probably more beneficial to new homes, but I believe that tankless is the way of the future and not a fad. They've been using tankless heaters in Europe for years now and we are really the exception in the world using tank heaters.
fish6942
Gold Member
Like has been said earlier, the efficiency rating (tanked or tankless) will make the biggest difference in operational costs. I'm looking at replacing my 80% efficient tanked unit with a 90+% efficient unit called Vertex from A.O. Smith. This unit has the capability of producing endless hot water even though it has a tank.
ultrarunner
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I have both and there definitely is the convenience factor... especially around the Holidays when family comes to visit... other than that, I'm very please with my old fashion, tank-type heaters...
I just don't see savings because some will stay in the shower as long as the water is hot and with forced water rationing... this is a bad thing.
Also the cost to retrofit and shorter longevity can be quite expensive.... My first tank-less only lasted 7 years and would have cost more to fix than buy a new one... I have tank heaters 15 to 20 years... or more in my rentals and some of them cost a little more than a $100.
I just don't see the savings for a typical family with teenagers... It's also harder on the bathroom with all that steamed water on everything.
I just don't see savings because some will stay in the shower as long as the water is hot and with forced water rationing... this is a bad thing.
Also the cost to retrofit and shorter longevity can be quite expensive.... My first tank-less only lasted 7 years and would have cost more to fix than buy a new one... I have tank heaters 15 to 20 years... or more in my rentals and some of them cost a little more than a $100.
I just don't see the savings for a typical family with teenagers... It's also harder on the bathroom with all that steamed water on everything.
ampsucker
Platinum Member
two more thoughts on the recent posts.
in europe, my experience is primariy in france and germany. france is 80% nuclear with a much more up to date electric grid. their utility costs are actually cheaper than in the USA. i believe the main driver for tankless units in most of europe is the space saving feature. they can be mounted high up on the wall with no loss of floor space in the typically small apartments and converted houses. any apartment in a major city in europe is going to be very small by american standards and they do everything they can to save space.
in europe, they also use tankless water heaters to heat their radiant room heaters. this is a nice system if installed all at once, but very expensive to retrofit. and when it doesn't work, you lose room heat AND can't take a hot shower or bath. bummer.
in short, i don't believe the european model is a good comparison to the US and you shouldn't base your decision on that without considering the motivation. if you are building a small house and need to economize space, then tankless may make more sense.
on the point of having unlimited hot water, i can almost guarantee this will be abused in a home with teenagers. having a finite hot water supply is the best way to limit infinity showers. ;-) a tankless unit may (and most likely will) RAISE your utility bill.
of course, they do make tankless water heaters with remote controls, so you could just cut them off in mid squirt so to speak....
but then YOU are the bad guy, not some faceless, nameless hot water heater sitting in a dark closet that just runs out of hot water without malice...
on the point about a tanked system using small amounts of energy all day long, i just don't see it. our new tank heater does not come on at all during the day when no one is using hot water. i pay attention and you can hear the gas kick on. it takes several days of no water use before the well insulated tank loses enough heat for the burner to engage if no one is using it. it is a 12 year warranty, 50 gallon, 40,000 btu unit from lowes. GE is the brand.
if you go tank, get the nicest one available. it will have the heavy duty tank and burner system, two anodes and the thickest insulation.
i know tankless is the current trend. i just think you should carefully think through the pros and cons. i couldn't make the numbers work for anything else in our application. high initial investments and long payback times terminated all other options.
of course, i think the CFL bulbs are also a misguided fad that will do more damage to the environment in the long run and don't have the claimed payback and so i do not favor them over LEDs and plain old incandescent.
but, alas, that is another rant for another post. ;-)
amp
in europe, my experience is primariy in france and germany. france is 80% nuclear with a much more up to date electric grid. their utility costs are actually cheaper than in the USA. i believe the main driver for tankless units in most of europe is the space saving feature. they can be mounted high up on the wall with no loss of floor space in the typically small apartments and converted houses. any apartment in a major city in europe is going to be very small by american standards and they do everything they can to save space.
in europe, they also use tankless water heaters to heat their radiant room heaters. this is a nice system if installed all at once, but very expensive to retrofit. and when it doesn't work, you lose room heat AND can't take a hot shower or bath. bummer.
in short, i don't believe the european model is a good comparison to the US and you shouldn't base your decision on that without considering the motivation. if you are building a small house and need to economize space, then tankless may make more sense.
on the point of having unlimited hot water, i can almost guarantee this will be abused in a home with teenagers. having a finite hot water supply is the best way to limit infinity showers. ;-) a tankless unit may (and most likely will) RAISE your utility bill.
of course, they do make tankless water heaters with remote controls, so you could just cut them off in mid squirt so to speak....
but then YOU are the bad guy, not some faceless, nameless hot water heater sitting in a dark closet that just runs out of hot water without malice...
on the point about a tanked system using small amounts of energy all day long, i just don't see it. our new tank heater does not come on at all during the day when no one is using hot water. i pay attention and you can hear the gas kick on. it takes several days of no water use before the well insulated tank loses enough heat for the burner to engage if no one is using it. it is a 12 year warranty, 50 gallon, 40,000 btu unit from lowes. GE is the brand.
if you go tank, get the nicest one available. it will have the heavy duty tank and burner system, two anodes and the thickest insulation.
i know tankless is the current trend. i just think you should carefully think through the pros and cons. i couldn't make the numbers work for anything else in our application. high initial investments and long payback times terminated all other options.
of course, i think the CFL bulbs are also a misguided fad that will do more damage to the environment in the long run and don't have the claimed payback and so i do not favor them over LEDs and plain old incandescent.
but, alas, that is another rant for another post. ;-)
amp
2manyrocks
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What are the typical fuel costs for electricity, propane and natural gas in your area? Which fuel do you plan to use?
You could also go to a combination water heating/space heating system that uses a very slightly modified water heater tank to provide both hot water and space heating. Water heaters heat water for only a small portion of the day, and when size appropriately, the "unused" heating capacity can be used to provide space heating.
You could also go to a combination water heating/space heating system that uses a very slightly modified water heater tank to provide both hot water and space heating. Water heaters heat water for only a small portion of the day, and when size appropriately, the "unused" heating capacity can be used to provide space heating.
2manyrocks
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LEDs are so efficient in flashlights that you'd think we'd be switching out to LEDs for home use like crazy.
woodlandfarms
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I have been following tankless pretty closely as we are about to have to replace our hot water heater. It is a tough call. First, I would look at Solar. Prices are coming down and the longevity seems to be much better than tankless. They say recoupment is around 8 years on Solar and around 15 on tankless, just in time to replace your tankless (assuming it lasts that long which is really up for debate). New solar claims a life expentancy of nearly 25 years. and as you have new construction going on. Also, solar can be worked into your heating and cooling systems, with minimal cost, and the savings can be quite huge.
There is a lot of disapointment with Tankless. generally less about performance and more about cost vs savings.
In our case, we heat and cool by city gas. Our bill averages 40 a month. 30% savings is 10 a month. Cost of a new hot water heater is $500 if we install (which we can) Cost of an installed tankless is around 2500. Now, not accounting for any tax break, it would take 200 months to recoup. 10 years... But all these numbers are based on the fact it is just my wife and I. Not sure how a family of 4 would fair... Also, if we have go tankless in our house, as the kitchen is so far away, we will probably need a second tankless system. Ugh...
There is a lot of disapointment with Tankless. generally less about performance and more about cost vs savings.
In our case, we heat and cool by city gas. Our bill averages 40 a month. 30% savings is 10 a month. Cost of a new hot water heater is $500 if we install (which we can) Cost of an installed tankless is around 2500. Now, not accounting for any tax break, it would take 200 months to recoup. 10 years... But all these numbers are based on the fact it is just my wife and I. Not sure how a family of 4 would fair... Also, if we have go tankless in our house, as the kitchen is so far away, we will probably need a second tankless system. Ugh...
studor
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In a new home for two people with occasional guests using gas I would go with tankless. In an electrical situation in a new home it might be a toss up -- in a retrofit I would forget about it. If it was propane I would go tankless as well. My opinion is based on having tankless in a remote fishing camp(propane) -- is great for sixteen people. Tanked in a remote fishing camp (propane) -- terrible with waits for the shower. A two person home with gas tankless -- great with only minor wait for hot water. A two person home with tank electric -- you have to time things. A two person home with tank gas -- faster but you have to time things.
Hot water is probably one of your lowest cost energy uses in the home -- while I would worry about saving some money and energy -- my focus would be on making sure I have hot water when I want it, hence I am a big fan of the gas tankless JMHO
regards
Hot water is probably one of your lowest cost energy uses in the home -- while I would worry about saving some money and energy -- my focus would be on making sure I have hot water when I want it, hence I am a big fan of the gas tankless JMHO
regards
I've had a Rheem GT199 Commercial Direct Vent Tankless for about 2 years now. I love it & I hate it.
I love the endlees hot water, I love the fact that it is tiny and gave me a lot of space freed up in the basement. I love that it vents out through the wall instead of the chimney.
I hate it because it has an endless hot water supply. Everyone in the house takes longer showers. I hate it because when someone washes their hands in the middle of the night it fires up, then runs the fan until it cools all the coils down after use. But the hot water never reaches the faucets becuase the sink is on too short of a time so it is a waste of gas.
My gas bills have gone UP since getting it because everone uses more hot water without considering saving some for the next person.
I also had to upgrade the meter and gas line to support the unit, but luckily the local utility had a "Energy Conservation" program in place that credited me for the cost of the meter upgrade and I did the house's upgraded piping myself.
I think the tankless is a great idea, but it certainly has its drawbacks. I think a hybrid system that combines a small tank for short-use needs like hand washing with a time-delayed tankless to ensure the tank never goes cold would be the best solution. I guess it is time for me to design one...
I love the endlees hot water, I love the fact that it is tiny and gave me a lot of space freed up in the basement. I love that it vents out through the wall instead of the chimney.
I hate it because it has an endless hot water supply. Everyone in the house takes longer showers. I hate it because when someone washes their hands in the middle of the night it fires up, then runs the fan until it cools all the coils down after use. But the hot water never reaches the faucets becuase the sink is on too short of a time so it is a waste of gas.
My gas bills have gone UP since getting it because everone uses more hot water without considering saving some for the next person.
I also had to upgrade the meter and gas line to support the unit, but luckily the local utility had a "Energy Conservation" program in place that credited me for the cost of the meter upgrade and I did the house's upgraded piping myself.
I think the tankless is a great idea, but it certainly has its drawbacks. I think a hybrid system that combines a small tank for short-use needs like hand washing with a time-delayed tankless to ensure the tank never goes cold would be the best solution. I guess it is time for me to design one...
Jon Heron
New member
Already done.
Look into the Toyotomi oil fired units, they have a 5 gallon tank if I recall correctly.
I wish I had seen these units before I bought the propane Bosch unit I put in 2 years ago. I am quite happy with the Bosch unit but I am currently going to be switching from propane to biodiesel for my heating and would have liked the water heater to be biodiesel fired as well...
Oh well, hindsight's 20/20 eh! I would only consider tankless for myself as I travel frequently and my wife and child typically stay with her mother when I am away, its nice to not have something else to shut down while I am gone...
Jon
Erik_in_Hoyt
Platinum Member
I am.
our Sam's club sells 1.5w LED bulbs - they put out light not quite as bright as a 40 watt incandescent, but it's the same "warm" light you're used to.
We also got a couple of 3.5w "cool" white bulbs (slightly blueish) that put out more light than a 75 watt, but not quite the same as a 100w bulb.
cost is high - about $5 each, but life expectancy is 30,000 hours, so I'm not too worried.
as our CFLs die during power surges/browns during storms, they'll be replaced with these.
They also make small base candleabra type bulbs - but when I built the house I standardized everything with good old medium bases, except the kitchen halogens.
PILOON
Super Star Member
Modern foamed tanks really keep the water hot with minimal current draw.
On the 4th day of a power failure I needed to shower badly enough that I climed into the shower prepared for a 'quick chilly wash' and much to my surprise the water was hot enough for a normal 'hot' shower, granted I did not need to mix any cold water as usual.
On the 4th day of a power failure I needed to shower badly enough that I climed into the shower prepared for a 'quick chilly wash' and much to my surprise the water was hot enough for a normal 'hot' shower, granted I did not need to mix any cold water as usual.
