Vented or Vent-Free?

rozett · Feb 5, 2005

We have a 200 year-old farmhouse that uses oil-fired central air heat. On one end of the house is a room that was built as a 3-season room, with lots of glass. It has an old (20 years) Jotul propane stove which has been very problematic. Neighbors say the previous owner also had troubles with the stove. Anyway, I would like to replace the ugly thing with a new efficient propane heater similar to the ProCom heaters that Northern Tool sells.

My question... vented or vent-free? I have always had a mistrust of vent-free installations because of carbon monoxide. Todays modern heaters have oxygen sensors that shut it down if levels fall below some standard. A chimney is not a problem as it is already there for the Jotul . So, what experience or recommendations do folks have about vented or vent-free?

Thanks....

thcri · Feb 5, 2005

If your living in the house don't do it. Being in the business we won't under any circumstances install one of them heaters. Two reasons, 1 insurance, 2 cause I have seen too many people die or get poisoning from them things. If you read the instructions really well it will tell you not to install in an area that is not vented properly. Your also relying on a cheap carbon monoxide sensor to shut the thing down.

murph

DocHeb · Feb 5, 2005

Vent free will put out massive amounts of water vapor that will condense on colder walls and cause terrible moisture problems.

Egon · Feb 5, 2005

Code:<hr /><pre> I have always had a mistrust of vent-free installations </pre><hr />

Follow your instincts! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Egon

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 5, 2005

Murph,

I just picked up from Home Depot, 50% off end of season, vent less natural gas 20,000 BTU heater for the garage. The 6/10 times a winter I work in the garage I wanted something to take the chill off. My plan is to use it ONLY when I am in the garage. What do you think of this application??

ThistleKop · Feb 5, 2005

I would advise anyone using a ventless heater to buy a carbon monoxide sensor/alarm that can be plugged in an electrical outlet. Not expensive and good protection when coupled with the sensor already on the heater. The moisture problem is another issue. Wouldn't think that would be a problem with occasional use in a garage. This is JMO.

TK

techman · Feb 5, 2005

I too did quite a bit of research when adding a propane fireplace to a new addition. Conclusion was you will get more usable BTU's from a vent free, but concerns like carbon monoxide and oxygen depleation kept me clear of them. I ended up buying a direct-vent from hearthsidedistributors.com. Great price and fast, cheap shipping. Saved about $200 vs. local suppliers.

One thing that was a real warning to me was the rules concerning how much outside air should be provided for combustion. It seemed that this would be an indication of concern with exhause gases and will lower the heating efficiency as well. A CO monitor is good but will not give any indication of problems with CO2 or O2 levems. Remember that newer, tighter houses are more suseptable to this problem.

paul

rswyan · Feb 5, 2005

( I just picked up from Home Depot, 50% off end of season, vent less natural gas 20,000 BTU heater for the garage. )

What did it end up costing you ?

( The 6/10 times a winter I work in the garage I wanted something to take the chill off. My plan is to use it ONLY when I am in the garage. What do you think of this application?? )

I was planning on doing similar myself - was looking at 30K BTU one (ProCom)at Harbor Freight Tools for $99 (not sure if that includes shipping or not.)

I would think it would be a fine application for it. The electric service up in the shed isn't big enough to run the welder so I have to do that out in the garage. I currently have a 28K BTU kerosene here in the garage and I'm getting tired of running after kero 2 1/2 gallons at a time and breathing the fumes. I calculated the cost of operation between the two and I think the natural gas was about 1/6 the cost of the kero or something like that.

thcri · Feb 5, 2005

( Murph,

The 6/10 times a winter I work in the garage I wanted something to take the chill off. My plan is to use it ONLY when I am in the garage. What do you think of this application?? )

I guess I don't know much about your garage and how much leakage it has. If your only out there for a few hours maybe ok?? And every person is different as far as the amount of monoxide one can handle. If this was a business call to my office I would tell you absolutely not.

An interesting story came on the channel 9 news in the twin cities last summer. A young child fell out the back of a boat and almost drown. They had a real hard time keeping this kid alive and the doctors didn't understand the whole situation as to why they were having so much trouble. Finally they discovered carbon monoxide. Ok this kid was only on the back for a few seconds while the boat stopped to talk to another boat, well dad kept the motor running. The carbon monoxide was a shock to everyone and so they did some autopsy's on previous people that drowned while falling out the back of a boat. Carbon monoxide showed up in each of the bodies.

So what I am saying is, your taking a risk especially if your alone. I personally can't believe these manufactures are allowed to make these things and I would think insurance companies would have stopped the manufactures with the law suits they are getting.

Just me, take it for what is worth.

murph

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 5, 2005

Yan,

I was $99 out the door , Charmglow, 5 year warranty.

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 5, 2005

Murph,

Install question for you. I have a 21,000 BTU vented gas fire place on the 2nd floor. It is feed by an exposed 1/2" gas pipe in the garage. Do you think the 1/2 " pipe would supply both heaters at the same time? The 1/2 " pipe is feed by 3/4 " pipe, about 15 feet away. OR should I run back to the 3/4 " pipe with a new 1/2" pipe to the new heater?

I will add CO detector to the bedroom above the garage and in the garage. It would be no problem to leave the garage door up a bit to let in air.

Thanks

thcri · Feb 5, 2005

What is the gas pressure of your system? The length of your run also determines line size. Is it low or 2psi. If 2 psi there should be no problem.

murph

slydog · Feb 5, 2005

First off, I have never been in a house with a ventless (unvented) heater, where I could not smell a hint of burning gass in the air. My grandmother used one for years without problems in her little frame house in Mississippi, and now my mom and stepdad have one in their den. They put out a lot of heat, but I can smell them and I am a smoker. Also maybe it is my imagination but I always feel a slight stinging or a drying sensation in my eyes whenever I am around one. My opinion, I would not have one unvented in my house if for no other reason than the odor alone. Wheter this relates to CO or not I'm not sure, but I don't like it.

Secondly:
I have a vented Lopi gas log stove in my den. We love it. It has forced air that stays on untill the box cools down, and we run it only on low. It will eventually run you out of the den if left on continuously even on low. (our siamese loves it and could lay in front of it till she's roasted!) We still keep a CO sensor/alarm plugged in right beside it just in case. I know they say you loose a lot of BTU's up the flue, but the peace of mind and odor issues make it worth the cost to me.

slydog · Feb 5, 2005

( Do you think the 1/2 " pipe would supply both heaters at the same time? )

You can get your flow rate from your utility. You may be able to contact the manufacturer via toll free number and they could possibly answer your questions. However there is so much worry about liability these days, they both may tell you to call a licensed plumber. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

rswyan · Feb 5, 2005

( I was $99 out the door , Charmglow, 5 year warranty. )

Sounds like a good deal, considering the warranty, no shipping charges and the fact it's a local supplier. I think I'll drop by the orange place and have a look. Thanks.

sherpa · Feb 6, 2005

I have 2 of the ventless propane heaters I bought from Home Depot about 11 years ago. Mine are called ComfortGlow. They work great! They make an after market universal thermostat fan for them as well. I have one in my den downstairs and another in a small guest cabin. They will keep you toasty and warm and use very little fuel.
Sherpa

bontai_Joe · Feb 6, 2005

( Vent free will put out massive amounts of water vapor that will condense on colder walls and cause terrible moisture problems. )

I've been reading about a fella in another forum that installed a ventless unit in his workshop and is having tremendous problems with the water vapor and humidity. Now has mold, tools rusting, etc. I'd definitely go with a vented unit.

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 6, 2005

RSW,

I went to 5 stores before I found a NG unit, most were propane.

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 6, 2005

This is the heater I got at HD, same one as on on e-bay for $80.

web page

Junkman · Feb 7, 2005

After your post, I went to HD looking for one and there were none to be found. At this point, I will do without since hearing all the bad things about a vent less unit. I know that in MA, the vent less heaters are outlawed. I also know that many states don't allow you to do natural gas piping yourself... it must be done by a licensed plumber .... and for good reason.