Using tooth bar for tilling?

[hz293]

I searched for any info on this but couldn't find anything. It's late in the season but I just bought my B7510HSD and am getting a tooth bar for my FEL. We're planning on a small garden and since I don't have a roto-tiller, could the teeth be used to scarf and break up the soil to plant late season vegetables?

HZ293

 

[texasjohn]

NO.... don't do it!!

if you put the teeth in ghe ground then drive forward or reverse you will put stresses on the hydraulic cylinders that they are not meant for... something bad will happen and it will cost WAY more than if you got a proper implement to do what you need.

Am sure that others will expand on this point... net is... a toothbar is NOT A PLOW!!

 

[JerryG]

I have to agree with John. The stress on the cylinders will be to high.

 

[638]

I broke my garden with the tooth bar by piercing the ground and then curling the bucket, raising, and then dumping. Back up 4 inches and repeat. When finished with the area that you want, repeat the process. May take several times to get a proper till.

Ron

 

[texasjohn]

This is the ONLY way that it will work..... resist, I say resist, the temptation to drag the toothbar. It can be used to dig/curl, but not push/pull.

 

[GordNovo]

JerryG or texasjohn, can you please elaborate on your comments about stressing the hydrolic cyclinders?

I do a lot of digging with my sub-cut (make and model to remain nameless in this Kubota group On occaisons, I've used my TB to create an 18" trench in undisturbed clay. Base on my understanding of the orginal post, HZ293 is likely to stress his machine in a similar way.

Can these sub-cuts not be used for digging? In particular, when in Low gear, is it really bad to push the machine to get the job done (and I don't mean mindlessly killing it to dig, but using discretion when applying downward force )? I could see how recklessly driving back and forth while the teeth are in the ground could be counterproductive, but how about wiggling and curling the bucket while carefully moving forward to get the depth and to put the material into the bucket so it can be moved or loosened?

 

[SPYDERLK]

I searched for any info on this but couldn't find anything. It's late in the season but I just bought my B7510HSD and am getting a tooth bar for my FEL. We're planning on a small garden and since I don't have a roto-tiller, could the teeth be used to scarf and break up the soil to plant late season vegetables?

HZ293

Yes, but you must do it backing up because it uses the whole area of the curl pistons whereas forward the hyd pressure can only act against the area of the piston that is not covered by the rod. Here is how you can get an idea that backing up is ok:
1) Lower your bucket until it is flat on the ground but dont float it;
2) Start backing up very slowly and begin to curl your bucket out;
3) Continue. There is a relief valve in your loader valve that sees the hydraulic pressure applied in response to your curl command. Curl will continue, lifting the front of the tractor, as long as the relief pressure is not reached.
So, if the bucket continues outcurling while you are backing up it indicates that you are not overpressuring the system. This says youll probably be fine backing up. However when you actually do the work you will be outcurling to the position you think is right and then centering the stick tohold that curl. With the stick centered the relief valve is not seeing cylinder pressure. The fluid must stay in the cylinder. The pressure in the cylinder will be whatever it takes to hold the curl. This will usually be the same as what it took to cause the curl during the backup while curling, but if you hit something with the tines that you didnt hit while experimenting the pressure will rise until something gives. That is likely to be the ground item being dislodged or skipped over or the tractor wheels slipping. Only in a case where the loader is in poor condition or is too small for the tractor would any failure be likely. The loaded parts have a significant safety factor. Have you ever lifted an item near the capacity of your loader and then moved the tractor over a surface not smooth -- or maybe lowered the load and stopped too quick? Those things caused BIG pressure spikes and the system held.
I have never had any problem backing up as described.
Larry

 

[hz293]

I understand not to use the teeth as a tiller because of the stress on the hydraulics, but I'm still confused. If I'm going to dig into tough dirt, I thought the tooth bar was used to break it up so you could scoop it up with the bucket. Is this acceptable pressure on the hydraulics? I read on the forum about people who dig up tree roots etc. Is there a proper way to do this without hurting the equipment?

 

[JerryG]

Unless Kubota is using some type of valve design that I not aware of, the relief is non-accessible to the cylinder unless the valve is open. The valve isn't open unless the handle is pulled. The reason that the cylinder is stressed is because of that as well as the cylinder is being forced by the pull of the tractor which puts shock stress on the cylinder. That is the reason that several loader manufactures say to not back drag at less than a 45* angle of the bucket. They know that there is a much higher likelihood of the cylinder rod being bent the closer the bottom of the bucket is to vertical.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The trouble with following all the cautions is that doing so will almost completely destroy the utility of the system. The arm cylinders are in exactly the same potential abuse situation when you are in a hard push - - and at these times the bucket incurl pressure can go even more critical. They can get away with some cautions because people will try to work around them, but "Dont push hard" and "Dont move with a heavy weight in the bucket" would have people saying "Huh?". "Dont Use" would certainly preserve the equipment, but there would be no demand.
The key is to take it easy.
Larry

 

[Highbeam]

Yes it can be used to rake into soft soil. It leaves a darn nice planting bed too. Do you also have use of a box blade? The scarifiers can be dropped all the way down and the box rolled forward to use the rippers as a chisel plow with very nice results.

 

[rdsaustintx]

I gotta agree with EVERYBODY here that you should not push or pull with the bottom of the loader bucket vertical. Yeah, yeah it's in your manual with a thousand other warnings, but just roll your bucket bottom vertical and look at the curl cylinder. The bucket has a HUGE mechanical advantage in that position!

If you're lucky you'll blow a hydraulic line first, but a few people have tatered their curl cylinders trying to use the bucket bottom like a bulldozer blade.

RDnT

 

[hz293]

Thanks for all the help. You guys saved me some trouble and I'm sure bunches of money.

A friend of mine has a box scraper that he doesn't use so he's going to let me "keep it for him". As suggested, I'll drop the teeth all the way and use it for a tiller. That's what my friend had used it for in the past. Thanks again from a newbie.

hz293

 

[texasjohn]

Everybody's comments above were what I expected and explain what you can and can't do much better than I could... I was rushed in my original post, but wanted to get the nub of the answer out.... A toohbar is not a push/pull plow... but us used to help dig.

 

[escavader]

Your gonna laugh at this.I tilled my garden this year with my backhoe!! Talk about over kill...but it broke up the packed soil[i plow snow on it]in a hurry,and i didnt shake my back to death with that ole front tine tiller i got.Tell wifey you need a hoe!
ALAN

 

[Tom_H]

I would consider doing it by backing up in soft loam. A small sub-soiler (or sub-soiler/middle buster combo) for the 3ph would be much less $ than a 'tiller and would concentrate all the inertia into one rip shank in contrast to the several teeth of the FEL, and without the stress on pistons/hydraulics.

 

[UPRAISER]

Interesting questions and even more interesting replies.

I have an old Mitsubushi or Satoh Beaver with a tooth bar, actually my father in law built it and he called it manure forks.

I know that he used the little tractor hard for 20+ years. I used the tooth bar to work up some really hard ground that had been a road bed for 30 years. I ramed the forks into the dirt and drove forward as slow as it would go and rooted all I could. The backed up with the forks all the way back into the same place. It took three or four trips to get it down to 4 ". I do not see any problem with that little old beast.

I have a new B21 Kubota that has just finished grading for a 3000 sf shop floor, a 1500 sf pad for a mobile office and 2500 sf for a new house. I used the FEL completly back to shave off the hard and high spots on each of them.

I spent many years in heavy construction with back hoes and big Cat and Michagan loaders, they are all used like that.

Perhaps some of the little light weight tractors will not hold up, but the little beaver is about as small as they get and I would not hesitate to use it again.

BTW, if you wet the ground down for a few days, it will make it all work better.

Curt

 

[SPYDERLK]

Curt. Yeah, and Ill bet that when you have a hammer you hammer with it. Me too.
Larry

 

[oldgoat2]

We slide the pallet forks to about 6" apart, push them into the soil 8 - 12", then lower the arms while curling the bucket (push the joystick toward 10:30) to loosen the soil in our garden. It prys the tightest soil up easily yet there is no stress on the loader or the tractor.