Price Check Used pricing on PT's....

davesisk · Jun 3, 2005

Used pricing on PT\'s....

Hey folks:

Well, I believe I've decided to sell my PT1418. My needs have changed enough that it's not quite the right fit any more. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It's difficult to justify keeping it if it's going to sit there unused the majority of the time...it needs a new home where it can work and be happy! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I'm just curious if anyone has a feel for fair used pricing...the machine is roughly equivalent to the current PT-422 (except 18hp instead of 22hp), had a new engine in 2000 or 2001 (and I've probably put 200-300 hours on it) has hydraulic PTO and auxillary (ie. directional) hydraulic circuit, the 9 cubic foot bucket, front-hoe, and swivel power auger head with 9" auger, plus an extra attachment plate. This is an older model that uses the previous 3-pin attachment method rather than the newer quick-attach, but it's still not too cumbersome, especially when you can wiggle the steering to get things positioned right. The paint's faded and there's a few spots that have some minor surface rust, but it's in great running shape and just as gnarley as it was the day it came off the production line.

Best I can figure, a new 422 with the same attachments is around $9300 or so, plus shipping. Anyone got a feel for what a fair used price would be?

I've been told that Terry at PT thinks it's worth about $2600. Huh??? I'm wondering if Terry has lost his mind! If that's his opinion, it sure seems like Power-trac is undermining their own resale value...very strange. Most mfg's over-estimate what their brand of used gear is worth. I'm looking at a few of the used machines on Power-trac site, and I sure don't see any for $2600. (Maybe Terry just really wants to sell new ones rather than cultivating a decent used market, eh?)

Anyway, I've never found a PT listed at any used tractor pricing sites, and there's none that have sold used that I can find on Ebay or anything. I've been told that most equipment like this goes for around 75-80% of it's new price, based on condition of course. (Looking at most CUT's, this seems to be pretty accurate...age doesn't seem to matter than much, but condition does.) I intended to price mine at around 70% of new, but now I'm not sure if that's a fair price.

Anyway, any thoughts on fair used pricing? Thanks for your guidance oh wise ones... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

Bob999 · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Dave,

I would like to think PT's hold value as well as your thinking--it would be great to sell mine some years down the road for a price like that. However, I would not be willing to pay 70% of new for a 15(?) year old piece of equipment with undetermined hours, even if the engine has been replaced in the past 5 years. Ultimately the price will be determined by what you and a buyer agree on and I wish you luck.

davesisk · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Bob:

Thanks for the post. The question that always comes to mind for me is what else is there that can load, do light excavation, and dig post holes for around $6000-7000 or so? The only answer I get is another PT! Certainly no other CUT equipped for these tasks for anywhere near the same price (and small enough to fit into the same places). I also know you can't buy a used Toro Dingo or any of the clones similarly equipped for that price (I know because I tried before I stumbled across this PT). I think this equation is also true if you consider everything new rather than used. Come to think of it, I can't for the life of me figure out why Power-trac isn't a huge conglomerate by now!

That said, you are absolutely correct...ultimately, anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Dave

BobRip · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

I think you may have found a weakness of the PT. Buying brand name equipment means you get a good resale value. At this point PT is not a brand name (in my opinion). I bought a gray market tractor a few years ago and lost about 50% on it in 3 years. Good luck on your sale, and let us know how you do.

Bob Rip

blackwell · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Buy a new car and drive it off the lot and you lost 25% of its value. Just bought two mercury sables for company use, 2005, 688 miles and 920 miles for $11,000 and $10500, less than half price.
Most used shop quipment, welders, lathes, etc. are about the same.
Anything is only worth what someone will pay for it. On PT's web site is a 1850 and 90" mower with only 200+ hours for less than half price while 422 & 425's carry much higher resale. Some time ago a finiance co had a 422 & 425 with several attachments for $2500, one needed an engine. I'd be supprised if you got $2500 for your machine.
Good luck,
EB

BobRip · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

What are you planning to replace it with?

Bob Rip

davesisk · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Bob:

For the most part, I've pretty much finished all the landscaping at my home that I bought the PT to do. It has unquestionably paid for itself.

Not planning to replace it per se...I have picked up a little Massey-Ferguson 1220 4WD HST w/FEL that will serve the occasional loader duties almost as well as the PT, and will serve a few other duties better (like running a 3-pt chipper/shredder, possibly a PTO generator, might serve some mowing duty at some point). Who knows...I might consider building a really small backhoe attachment just for the fun of it as well...I seem to have a hankerin' to give that a try... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dave

davesisk · Jun 3, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

( ... while 422 & 425's carry much higher resale. Some time ago a finiance co had a 422 & 425 with several attachments for $2500, one needed an engine. I'd be supprised if you got $2500 for your machine.
Good luck,
EB )

Did you mean 422's and 425's carry much higher or lower resale? The finance company thing sounds like a self-fullfilling prophecy to me...who would a finance company who had repossessed the machines call to determine their value? And who would they probably talk to when they call Power-trac? Sounds like more of Terry's influence to me! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Of course, as I understand it, Power-trac recently sold two refurbished 422's for around $4K each, no attachments. I guess they're worth $2500 if you buy them from someone else, but worth $4000 if you buy them from Power-trac? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think we've had a discussion like this before...a big PT weakness doesn't have anything to do with the machine itself, but moreso the company and it's sell-direct policy with no dealers providing service and making a market in the used machines.

Anyway, this is all conjecture...the bottom line is, as with anything else, it's worth what someone's willing to pay for it. I know what I was willing to pay for it...I'm sure there are quite a few other folks like me...er...uh...yeah...well maybe a few that are almost as eccentric... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

L8r,
Dave

BillCroasmun · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Dave,
I have done a lot of reading on this site in the past. Mainly by searching for what I wanted to know at the time but more recently going back to the beginning pages of the forum and reading through the threads 1-by-1 to see what insights and tips I could gain. (As an FYI for those who wonder, they go back 50 pages in the PT forum. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'm about 10 pages in. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Anyways, I have just recently read your PT acquisition messages along with your telling of internal debates on which brand to buy... I think if you try selling it for what you bought it for plus a little for the improvements along the way you may sell it at a wash. A couple years of work for just your time and operating costs would be nice. If it doesn't sell you can always come down over time. If I hadn't recently bought my new 180 I'd have probably thought pretty hard about taking a trip down to see yours at that price. With me money was a BIG factor in purchasing and yours would have been very reasonable in my eyes. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

davesisk · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

( Dave,
I have done a lot of reading on this site in the past. Mainly by searching for what I wanted to know at the time but more recently going back to the beginning pages of the forum and reading through the threads 1-by-1 to see what insights and tips I could gain. (As an FYI for those who wonder, they go back 50 pages in the PT forum. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'm about 10 pages in. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Anyways, I have just recently read your PT acquisition messages along with your telling of internal debates on which brand to buy... I think if you try selling it for what you bought it for plus a little for the improvements along the way you may sell it at a wash. A couple years of work for just your time and operating costs would be nice. If it doesn't sell you can always come down over time. If I hadn't recently bought my new 180 I'd have probably thought pretty hard about taking a trip down to see yours at that price. With me money was a BIG factor in purchasing and yours would have been very reasonable in my eyes. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Well, that's my thought too. I'm not trying to make a profit on it or anything...I'd like to get most of what I have in it back out if possible. I don't mind a little bit of "loss"...I think of it as a cheap 3-4 year rental! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif If I lose $1K off what I have in it, I certainly couldn't have rented something similar for 3 years for $1K, if you follow me.

I think I might have said this before...I think that Power-trac markets these as "tractors" when what they should be marketing them as is "compact utility loaders", etc. In other words, instead of competing with Kubotas, John Deere's, and New Hollands, I think PT should be competing with Toro Dingo's, Ramrod's, and Kanga's (at least with the smaller units anyway). I think PT would fair much better against that set of competitors! Just my humble opinion though...

Dave

Carpenter · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Well, It's easy for us to second-guess PT's business model but they seem to be doing fine. Almost everyone here either owned or looked at conventional tractors before buying a PT, so what they call their machines doesn't seem to have much negative effect, IMHO. Now if they could make it look like a conventional tractor instead of a "golf cart on steroids" that would help sales. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Marks481 · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Or maybe, they could market it to the golfing community as well. There is a great slogan "golf cart on steroids".

Imagine next time you are on the back 9, and a PT1845 with duallies goes thumdering by...

BenTh · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Hello,

I've been watching the posts to this topic with interest. And in the interests of full disclosure: I am the SOB who probably sparked this topic by offering Dave a price he felt was too low for his tractor.

Before going on about price, I will say that I spent an hour or so with Dave and played in his sand pile with the tractor (thanks Dave!) I am inexperienced with this specific type of equipment, but in my inexpert opinion, everything appeared to work as advertised. A little more on this below.

There are a number of issues regarding price that I considered when haggling with Dave.

1) The PT-422 was listed as roughly equivalent to Dave's Tractor. The list price for this tractor with a mini-hoe and auger is $9,100 new. Dave's asking $6,500 for a 15 year old out-of-production machine. Personally, given these options, the choice would be clear, I'd get the new machine, spending the extra $2,600, and getting a factory warranty, a current production machine, readily available spare parts, available attachments that fit without modification (the PT-1418 used a different attachment system), and the support of the manufacturer.

2) When you are buying a old piece of equipment like this (i.e. 15 years), you are buying into a repair program. The engine was replaced 5 years ago, so that should be good for a few more years. How about the hydraulic pumps, valves, and actuators? What is the expected lifetime of those? (Note: Dave did tell me that he replaced the hoses.) I didn't closely check the condition of the tires, but will those have to be replaced?

3) So if you take my point about buying into a repair program, where are you going to get the spare parts? Are the parts still available for this machine? Or have they, like the tractor itself, gone out of production? What will you have to do to keep it operating? For example, a pump goes out and say you can no longer get the pump that is on there. So you try to find an equivalent pump. Then you may have to make a manifold to attach it to the drive...perhaps you have to customise the drive shaft to couple them properly.

4) With this used tractor specifically, you don't have the advantage of knowing how many hours are on the machine (since the hour meter is broken.) So you don't know how far along you are on the expected life of the various equipment. So there is an additional big unknown here.

5) I would find it hard to believe that anyone from Power Trac would undervalue resale value. In fact, if anything, I would expect them to overstate it. There are two good reasons for this: First, pumping up the resale market makes their machines look better, increasing new sales. Second, if the resale value of their machines is pumped up high enough, people will buy new instead of used machines. Understating resale value would hurt Power Trac in many ways. The argument that they would try to take the air out of the resale market by doing this doesn't make any sense. They would essentially be saying 'Our equipment doesn't hold up', which would be death to an equipment maker.

Evaluating these factors, even if the tractor were in pristene condition, I couldn't see paying anywhere near 70% of new value.

I don't have any aversion to doing mechanical and electrical work. So, buying a used tractor is worthwhile to me if the price justifies it. However, if I don't find anything that works for me, I'll just buy one new.

All that being said, my opinion may not resonate with others. If you find that this price range is acceptable, I would recommend checking out Dave's tractor. I drove it around, used the loader, the backhoe, and the auger. We moved a little dirt, dug up some roots, and dug a post hole. Dave showed me some tips on digging and what not. I kept pushing the wrong treadle and going backwards instead of forwards (must be my dyslexia!) So perhaps I should stay away just on mere safety grounds.

tracdoc · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

BenTh,
IMO, I think your analysis is spot-on. Too often, we are all guilty to one extent or another of inflating (w/o malice or greed) the resale value of what we have put on the block. My wife calls it a "guy thing" and I think she's probably correct. I have done it myself with cars, cameras, sporting goods, etc. The reality is the market will force you, sooner or later, to wake up and smell the coffee. No matter how I argue to myself as to how well I have cared for the item, how much it would cost to replace it, etc., Joe and Jane Consumer will ultimately dictate what the value is. The key to selling items, I have slowly learned, is to get ahead of the curve, and put yourself in Joe/Jane Consumer's shoes and determine what a fair price is.

You have to dissociate that from the emotional factors and the convoluted reasoning which tend to overvalue the item. As a starting place for pricing, one has to ask oneself what the return on the purchase investment has been over the time period of ownership, i.e., the price paid (and when) minus the dollar value of the work performed by the machine over time. If that number comes up negative, a seller should consider themselves very fortunate and price the item for a timely sale. PT's are by and large not appreciating items,. They are depreciating workhorses. After assessing your ROI, you can look at other market factors which might affect price. In my experience most of those "other factors" drive resale prices down, not up, e.g., new and better models, more bells and whistles, etc.

For a 15 year old, out-of-production unit with no quick attach, 2nd or beyond owner, and indeterminate hours, Terry's appraisal of $2,600 sounds very fair. The added value as I see it is the replacement engine, but that's offset by the indeterminate hours, aging hydraulics, wheel motor strength, etc.

davesisk · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Hey Ben:

LOL...you're definitely not an SOB /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif (in fact, I saw you were as a forthright kind of fellow) although our discussion did spark my post...was just curious to see what other PT owners at large thought about used pricing. It's been a quite interesting thread!

One thing is for certain though, I still don't believe that a completely operational machine with no mechanical issues, no leaks, etc., a bucket, 2 yr old mini-hoe, and swivel auger head with 3-yr old 9" auger are only worth a total of $2600 as Terry has suggested. But that is merely my belief, so it could be quite wrong.

Anyways, I think there are two different mindsets here. When I bought the PT, I wasn't really concerned about "what's a PT1418 worth", although perhaps I should have been. My question was "is this a good price for a machine that will do what it will do?" The answer I got from myself was "yup". (Even considering the repairs I've done to it, I'd still say the answer is "yup".) I certainly couldn't find a traditional CUT nor one of the mini-skid steer loaders for a similar price, and I looked for quite a while. The closest alternative would have been a grey-market tractor, it wouldn't have been HST, and I couldn't have added even a small hoe for the $1K price of the mini-hoe. Different strokes for different folks I suppose...but that's fine, makes the world go 'round as they say! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cheers,
Dave

Gravy · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Dave,

After following this thread, I come away with this:

Among those of us who are familiar with PT's, you're not likely to get a price that will satisfy you. After all, we're an unusually practical, thrifty bunch of mavericks who decided that a weird, homely little machine from Tazewell made more sense for us (and cost less) than the "prestige" names like JD & Kubota. We've also seen the reconditioned 400 series machines for $4000 and the 1430 packages for half (or less) of new cost.

OTOH, to somebody who's been looking at grey market used Japanese ag tractors (with zero manufacturer support) for $3500 to $7000 or more, plus quite a few thousands more for a loader, PHD, etc. (and forget about a backhoe), your package could be a better alternative.

You might do best to advertise in your local paper(s), the Equipment Trader, or Ebay. I'd mention that it's 4wd, articulating, and made in USA...

Good luck,

Dave

davesisk · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Gravy:

Bingo! That's exactly what I've been saying. You are precisely correct...that's exactly why I bought the PT in the first place...I considered it a steal compared to any of the alternatives that could provide the same functionality! I guess all things are just a matter of perspective, eh?

L8r,
Dave

BillCroasmun · Jun 4, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Dave,
I think you hit it right on with your description. Many PT owners on this board had contemplated larger more expensive alternatives originally when purchasing their units. To them switching to a lower priced alternative let them go for the machine that best fit their needs within a comfortable budget.

Buyers like myself came from the other end of the spectrum. I was originally looking at the larger garden tractors ($3K to $4K range) and trying to find one that supported other work as well (mower/bucket/plowing mandatory other work optional).

Having not found anything that could suit my needs I began looking into other categories and discovered the Asian tractors and kits and CUTs... With these the jobs I wanted to accomplish were more reasonably handled but I wasn't sold on any of the particular types and I was now really stretching myself a bit to even get one. Then I found the PT's /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The 180 was fitting into my now very stretched budget but I was getting something that was capable of all my mandatory work and 80% of my future wish list as well. Looking without my budget in mind I realized the 422 is the sweet spot in the line up for me but being already stretched I know I just had to settle for less.

I've read many threads here trying to help buyers and saying things about pinching the belt a little because a tractors a long term investment. And others saying I don't want you to end up saying "I should of gotten a..." and I know these words are all meant with good intentions but sometimes that belt is already tight and not everyone can go that next step. Some of these people may not even get a PT because they are afraid that 422 or whatever "may" not be enough. I must admit I was a little leary of the 180 after reading some discussion threads but I knew it was the only thing I felt comfortable with within my budget and lived close enough to make the drive to Tazewell to see for myself. I am very glad I did! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Sure no one who bought a 422 is ever going to say I should of gotten a 180 likewise for the 425 owners talking about a 422 but I wonder how many out there may be "satisfied" with a step down if that was all they could afford? I think many would. I know there are those on here taking their machine to the limit and that's great that they made the choice they did.

Taking this all around full circle if Dave's machine is selling at $6000 to that person who is stretching his budget as tight as he can to get $6000 what else can they get that supports a mini-hoe is 4WD, etc, etc? If I had a $10K budget... Sorry Dave I'm going NEW!!! But fortunately for you Dave not everyone does. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

davesisk · Jun 5, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Hey Bill:

Don't feel at all like your PT-180 is the red-headed step child or anything. The only things you're missing from the 422 other than the obvious 4 horses are the hydraulic quick attach (seriously, even though it's definitely nice to have, it wouldn't be a decision-point for me) and the directional auxillary hydraulic circuit. You can add a manual selector valve for about $70 (plus the plumbing and quick connects, probably another $50 or so) and have the capability to run attachments like the mini-hoe or grapple bucket (those attachments that have a 3rd hydraulic cylinder). Check the URL in my sig for how to plumb it up...it's pretty simple and very reliable.

Thanks for the post. Your purchase decision sounds exactly like my thought process when I bought the PT1418. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

MossRoad · Jun 5, 2005

Re: Used pricing on PT\'s....

Hey, Dave. As you may know, I am fixing up our old late 70s IH2500b to sell. We bought it about 15 years ago with the intention of using it until we were done with it, then selling it. I expect to get about 1/2 of what we paid, even though it will be in similar condition and I've added a brush hog and box blade. I look at it this way... it saved me:
$5000.00 on a driveway.
Hundreds of dollars in mowing fees
and hundreds of dollars in grading fees.
Even eating the 1/2 price loss, I am still several thousand dollars ahead.
As people have stated, used equipment is a gamble... it is only worth what someone is willing to pay. I plan on asking a lot for our old beast, but will take less if it doesn't sell.

I plan on keeping the PT425 forever. The platform can be adapted as technology changes. I did consider the re-sale value before purchase, and they are not like the big three because of exactly what you pointed out earlier... they are not tractors, they are equipment... and used equipment depreciates in value unlike collectable tractors and/or yuppie compacts. Think of it this way... If you buy a sawzall for $200.00 and then try to sell it a year later, you will not get $100.00 for it(unless someone needs it bad enough).

I'd ask what you want for it and see if you get any bites... but be prepared to come way down if you need to get rid of it. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif