Trailer Welders Certification

[gemini5362]

Gemini, It is YOUR PROJECT but I'll give you the advice I'd give a close friend... You are building in a repetitive hassle if you are going to road the trailer behind a truck and then have to go get a tractor to hook up the PTO. You'll be walking part of the time or requiring a second person as a driver. It will work, but it will be a PITA!

Lets say yo drive to quarry and get crusher run for the driveway. Now you are home with a load. Can you slowly drive down the drive tilting the dump a little more every few yards? Maybe if you drop the trailer and hitch up the tractor as tow vehicle and connect the PTO.

What if you use the tractor's FEL to load the trailer with dirt from a few different locations. Are you going to hitch-unhitch-hitch-unhitch or use the truck to move the trailer and the tractor for loading? Then when you are ready to go somewhere to dump the load you have to unhitch the truck and hook up the tractor.

I'm sure there may be some combination of operations where it might not be a big pain but if it were me I'd be trying to make it dump without using the tractor hydraulics.

What if you want to haul a load of gravel for a friend/customer. The friend/customer doesn't have a tractor. Now what do you do? Take your tractor to his location and park it, then go to the gravel pit, then to his place to hook up the tractor to dump and then take the trailer home and go back for the tractor.

It seems to me that effort spent in creating an inconvenient solution would be better redirected toward a SMOOTH solution. The $ shouldn't be that big and the convenience would be a very nice thing (and quite a time saver.)

Pat

Actually my idea was to fill it full of crusher dust, gravel whatever I needed and tow it home with my truck then hook it to my tractor and the the PTO on it. This was an only if necessary plan. I was looking last night and found a website that sells wrecker and truck parts. They have a hydraulic power supply that is powered by a 12 volt motor. It has the hydraulic resevoir with it. The flow rate seems kind of low it is only 1.25 gal per minute. The pump relief valve is set for 1750 psi at the factory but can be adjusted to 2500 psi with the pump itself putting out 3500 psi. I think the flow rate might be a bit slow for dumping but it should work. this pump is only 283.00 so that will be the option I will use if I have to. All of this is of course if the hydraulics on the trailer is not working. I am assuming a worse case scenario with the idea that anything less that worse case will be a pleasure

 

[patrick_g]

I wonder how many gal of capacity the ram has??? Surely it wouldn't be more than 2-3 gal at the most. I could wait that long for the $ and ease of use.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

Patrick that is what I am thinking also. I will probably not be using the trailer for customers so I dont have to worrry about time versus income. If the flow rate is a bit slow that would not hurt me a bit and like you said it will be a lot better alternative than having to hook and unhook etc.

 

[AlanB]

Gem, not sure I have followed everything in this thread or not, but this is what I would suggest you do on your trailer.

Put in one of these.

Surplus Center Item Detail

Then wire a battery too it on the trailer.

Then insure that your 7 pin is wired with a charging wire. Trailer hitch, hitches and bike rack (800)298-8924 has the diagrams, everyone seems to do them just a little different, if you have someone you regularly swap trailers around with then make sure you do yours like his.

Then connect your charge wire too your battery and it will charge from your vehicle anytime it is connected, you can also put in a small trickle type charger and plug it into 110 when available to keep your battery up.

You have to have a resovoir to take the fluid from the cylinder when it is down.

Normally they would be power up, and just gravity down, but there are some that are powered both ways.

You will not want to hook and unhook all the time, it seems like no big deal typing on the computer, but when you are out there swapping it around, it will get old quick.

 

[gemini5362]

Gem, not sure I have followed everything in this thread or not, but this is what I would suggest you do on your trailer.

Put in one of these.

Surplus Center Item Detail

Then wire a battery too it on the trailer.

Then insure that your 7 pin is wired with a charging wire. Trailer hitch, hitches and bike rack (800)298-8924 has the diagrams, everyone seems to do them just a little different, if you have someone you regularly swap trailers around with then make sure you do yours like his.

Then connect your charge wire too your battery and it will charge from your vehicle anytime it is connected, you can also put in a small trickle type charger and plug it into 110 when available to keep your battery up.

You have to have a resovoir to take the fluid from the cylinder when it is down.

Normally they would be power up, and just gravity down, but there are some that are powered both ways.

You will not want to hook and unhook all the time, it seems like no big deal typing on the computer, but when you are out there swapping it around, it will get old quick.

AlanB thank you for the advice. I agree with you that swapping things around will get old very fast. When I made that post I was thinking of that as a last ditch effort to get it working If I had to. I found another site with almost the same type of setup as the link you sent me. The other hydraulic pump system had pretty much the same specs but I think it had a slightly smaller resevoir. It as 284.00 versus 360. I have not looked at shipping costs to compare the two yet. Right now I am still waiting to find out what I need. The weather for our area calls for a very severe thunderstorm system this weekend. I am supposed to go pick up the trailer saturday. It will have to be a really really bad system to keep me from doing that I am anxious to get it and see what it needs. There is a possibility that the hydraulics will work fine. The seller told me that they did but I am a bit of a pessimist. When I buy something that I cant see work I assume it doesn't and see what I need to do if that is the case. If they work all I need to do is to get a motor for them and I am in buisness and very happy. If they dont work I will get a system from the link you showed me or the other one that I found and put a new system on there and be very happy. Either way I am getting a dump trailer so I am going to be very happy.

I pointed out to my wife that when I was a kid I did not have as many toys as I have now. I have a diesel powered heavy duty pickup. I have a tractor with a front end loader (and a cab with a/c heat and a stereo) and I have a dump trailer, Life just does not get any better than this All I need to do now is to retire so I can go out and play in the dirt.

 

[AlanB]

I just grabbed the first one I saw at Surplus Center. Surplus Center - Hydraulic Equipment Electric Motors I did not look for the "best deal" I just wanted a picture to show what I meant. Sometimes they have some pretty great deals.

We have a 6X10 dump trailer, that we use in my wifes landscaping business. It is another of those things that my DW fought me on tooth and nail that we did not need it. Now that we have it, she is pissed I did not buy one earlier... Go figure.

Did I understand correctly that your's is single axle?

Be EXTREMELY carefull loading rocks. A very small pile is a LOT of weight.

Tomorrow morning's project is to make my spread / drop tailgate into a barn door on ours.

 

[jarokoro]

GEM,

Check out eBay here is one for 75.00
eBay: Recondioned 12VDC Single Acting w/ Remote Control (item 250087315660 end time Feb-25-07 06:01:41 PST)

Not sure how familiar you are with eBay but if you read the profiles and the posts of what others say you will be ok. If the deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. However, you can find just about anything for a decent price. Just look out for excessive shipping charges.

I watch items for a few days then that will rather give you an idea of prices. Most things are less expensive by 10%-30% than a Local Purchase and it can be delivered to your door.

I have made several large purchases from eBay. I bought a 14,000lb Brand New GN Load Trail Dump Trailer for around $5100 (couldn’t get one with in 250 miles for less than around $8500), a John Deere 8A Backhoe attachment for $2900 (couldn’t find one that was factory in my area, just new around $7,800). I have bought a couple of chainsaws and other tools and equipment for far less than new prices and its always hard to track down good used equipment locally without paying a retailer here 50% mark up.

If you think the seller may be shady pay through pay pal with a credit card. My rule is if they do not take pay pal, I probably will not buy unless they are a legit regular business. (Example is united Rental sells used equipment on eBay and I would just pay them with CC) The Credit Card Company (Visa or MasterCard) and pay pal have departments to fight on your behalf and most CC Companies have automatic refund/warranty policy already on your account you may not even be aware of. So worst case you get your money back if things went south. I always try to pay with CC for purchases even locally because of the buyer beware support.

 

[AlanB]

Man, that looks like a good deal, from folks in that business. Ocala is also home of U-dump trailers, one of the originals in that field.

 

[gemini5362]

GEM,

Check out eBay here is one for 75.00
eBay: Recondioned 12VDC Single Acting w/ Remote Control (item 250087315660 end time Feb-25-07 06:01:41 PST)

Not sure how familiar you are with eBay but if you read the profiles and the posts of what others say you will be ok. If the deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. However, you can find just about anything for a decent price. Just look out for excessive shipping charges.

I watch items for a few days then that will rather give you an idea of prices. Most things are less expensive by 10%-30% than a Local Purchase and it can be delivered to your door.

I have made several large purchases from eBay. I bought a 14,000lb Brand New GN Load Trail Dump Trailer for around $5100 (couldn’t get one with in 250 miles for less than around $8500), a John Deere 8A Backhoe attachment for $2900 (couldn’t find one that was factory in my area, just new around $7,800). I have bought a couple of chainsaws and other tools and equipment for far less than new prices and its always hard to track down good used equipment locally without paying a retailer here 50% mark up.

If you think the seller may be shady pay through pay pal with a credit card. My rule is if they do not take pay pal, I probably will not buy unless they are a legit regular business. (Example is united Rental sells used equipment on eBay and I would just pay them with CC) The Credit Card Company (Visa or MasterCard) and pay pal have departments to fight on your behalf and most CC Companies have automatic refund/warranty policy already on your account you may not even be aware of. So worst case you get your money back if things went south. I always try to pay with CC for purchases even locally because of the buyer beware support.

Rob thank you for this post. I have the item to be watched and see what it does before I big on it. That is actually a very good price for a double acting cylinder. I have used ebay quite a bit. I have bought 1 motorcycle, 1 car, 1 5 speed transmission, 1 garage door opener, and several small items. I check the sellers feedback listing. and I always pay with paypal. The car I bought was near an old navy buddy and he went and checked it out before I bought it. They did not take pay pal for the car but it was a dealer and he accepted master card. I have bought about 40 items and have had two problems 1 i had was a 15.00 motorcycle speedometer did not work. The other was the guy with the transmission I bought was a bit slow about sending it, he had a problem with packing it and actually I believe decided not to mess with it. He also did not take paypal. If I have to send money I send a USPS money order. When the guy did not ship the transmission I told him that if i did not get it within a week (this was after argueing about it for a month) I was going to notify the Postal Inspection Service. That is why I use USPS money orders. If someone cashes one of them and does not send your merchandise then they get to deal with the Inspection Service. That is very similar to dealing with the FBI. Postal inspectors can go anywhere in the US that mail is delivered to. Other than those two instances all the rest of my transactions have been very good.

 

[gemini5362]

I just grabbed the first one I saw at Surplus Center. Surplus Center - Hydraulic Equipment Electric Motors I did not look for the "best deal" I just wanted a picture to show what I meant. Sometimes they have some pretty great deals.

We have a 6X10 dump trailer, that we use in my wifes landscaping business. It is another of those things that my DW fought me on tooth and nail that we did not need it. Now that we have it, she is pissed I did not buy one earlier... Go figure.

Did I understand correctly that your's is single axle?

Be EXTREMELY carefull loading rocks. A very small pile is a LOT of weight.

Tomorrow morning's project is to make my spread / drop tailgate into a barn door on ours.

Alan you need to hurry with the fun projects like making new tailgates. when you get your new house you wont have time to do stuff like that for a while.

Yes it is a single axle. The axle is a dually however so I do have 4 tires carrying the weight. What is funny is that I went and looked at new tires for it. The new tires will cost me half as much as the trailer. Thanks for the tip about rocks. One of the conversions I have to make to it is electric brakes I like to have them when I am carrying weight. My wife did not have a chance to factor into the decision to buy it. I bought it then called and told her I bought it. I did not tell her right away though. I called on my way home and she was with her daughter looking at jewelry. I told her she needed to just buy whatever she wanted to. She got suspicious and and asked me why. I told her because she was such a good wife. She said ok, what did you buy She was just relieved it was under a 1000.00 I have been known to tell her I was going to fax her some papers to sign because I just bought another house. The person that I bought the trailer from had a small salvage/used vehicle buisness. If I understood him right he took a dump bed off of a truck and put it on a trailer. That is why I can not check the hydraulics. When it was on a truck it ran off of the power takeoff. When he put it on the trailer he did not add a motor to it so I cannot see the hydraulics run. The owner told me that he just used a starter motor on them and that worked well. I am going to try that and see what happens first. The next post after yours I was advised of a good buy on ebay for a
remanufactured unit. That might have some advantages. For one thing it has an electric solenoid to control the dump with versus the mechanical one that is on there now. If the starter Idea does not work it looks like someone on ebay remanufactures them for less than 100.00 I would have trouble getting a DC motor that cheap. I am looking forward to getting it home tomorrow so that I can see what it needs. We are supposed to get a severe thunderstorm tomorrow. I just built a new garage and I still have half of it full of building materials to finish the inside with. I wonder if my wife will let me park her new porsche out in the rain so that I can take the trailer inside and play with it.

 

[AlanB]

If the guy is in the salvage business, and says all it needs is a starter motor to make it work, I would tell him, OK, I got $100 for you to put on the starter motor......

Kind of like the deals I see where folks tell the people buying bikes etc. Oh, just $15 worth of parts and it will be worth tons more. If that was the case, they would have done it.

I think you got a great deal, but I think the line about the starter motor is VERY suspect.

That one on Ebay looks good though.

 

[patrick_g]

Starter motors are quite powerful and can most likely power a hydraulic pump in this application. My concern is not so much whether or not it can put out the requisite power but if it can put out the requisite power long enough. Most stuff written regarding cranking an engine warn you to not exceed a relatively brief period like 30 sec and to "rest" the starter for so many minutes between attempts.

I would not have the patience to lift the load a fraction of the way and then wait a few min to lift it another portion. It could easily take 3 or more cycles of lift and wait to get a complete dump and that could easily take 15 min to be safe and not burn out the motor. This is speculation on my part. Reality trumps speculation so if a starter motor works and lasts it is a good solution.

Pat

 

[AlanB]

Typing thing,

How to get across what I am trying to say.

I am picturing this system as a hyd cylinder with two hoses hanging off from it (or maybe only one) The controls, pump, resovoir etc would all be on the truck that it came off from. There would be a BUNCH of stuff missing besides a starter motor to make it work.

I think my system uses a Ford starter motor to operate my trailer. (I have never replaced it, but that is what it looks like too me) But there is a tank, plumbing, couple solenoids etc, that come as a unit to make that thing function. I am guessing they are not there. (but it is just that, a guess).

Either way, a scissor lift dump is a nice thing to have, just need to sort out what additional pieces are needed to make it practical.

At least on mine, the starter motor powers it just fine up and down, and I believe them too be pretty much the industry stanadard for dump trailers.

 

[BTDT]

Typing thing,

How to get across what I am trying to say.

I am picturing this system as a hyd cylinder with two hoses hanging off from it (or maybe only one) The controls, pump, resovoir etc would all be on the truck that it came off from. There would be a BUNCH of stuff missing besides a starter motor to make it work.

I think my system uses a Ford starter motor to operate my trailer. (I have never replaced it, but that is what it looks like too me) But there is a tank, plumbing, couple solenoids etc, that come as a unit to make that thing function. I am guessing they are not there. (but it is just that, a guess).

Either way, a scissor lift dump is a nice thing to have, just need to sort out what additional pieces are needed to make it practical.

At least on mine, the starter motor powers it just fine up and down, and I believe them too be pretty much the industry stanadard for dump trailers.

Isn't this what your talking about? Sorry for the bad photo, but I think W.W. Grainger sells them.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...2d1165699142-lift-rake-12v-hydraulic-pump.pdf

 

[gemini5362]

Actually allan all the parts that you mention are on the trailer or at least they were. The hydraulic power supply and the switching valve are all in one unit and it is connected to the ram with two hoses. Now as to why I say they were. It is almost prophetic that I started this thread. When I started it I was thinking about some of the people that talk about modifying trailers or buying them and I was wondering about the certification. Now let me tell you what happened today. I went to get the trailer, like I said it is a homemade trailer that the owner took a dump bed off of and put it on the trailer. I checked to make sure how the hydraulic pump hooked up to a motor and made sure everything was there but the motor. I hooked the trailer up and started for home. I went about 80 out of the 120 miles I had to go and everything was great the trailer pulled well it was a nice size to match what I wanted etc. I heard a loud noise and looked in my rear view mirror and saw the axle flying through the air. The previous owner had not did a very good job attaching the axles to the trailer and his weld broke. I was very fortunate. I was on a major highway and when the axle broke loose there were no cars in sight. No one behind me or no one coming towards me. The axle hit the ground and I stopped the pickup and the trailer frame over on the shoulder. I got out to get the axle and it had started rolling down a hill towards me. I realized that I did not want to try to stop it because it was rolling probably 20 or 30 miles an hour so I dodged it and watched it change directions and roll accross the highway. The axle started up a small hill and lost momentum. I ran up to it and got it stopped before it could roll down again. A car stopped and two young men helped me to roll it back to the trailer and lift it inside of it. I looked to see what had been damaged and noticed the hydraulic pump gone. It was sitting on the front of the trailer but underneath the frame. I went back up the road and found it. The mounting brackets were gone but it actually seemed to hold up ok. I left the trailer where it was and went to a friends house that was about 20 miles from where it broke. We went back with a jack and some chains. We jacked up the trailer and set the axles underneath it. We ran a chain around the axle and put a bolt through the chain holding it around the axle. We ran one end to the end of the trailer and the other end to the front of the trailer. We used a load binder to tighten it down. We did the same thing on the other side. We hooked the trailer back up and then
drove slowly 10-20 mph back to his house. It is amazing the nice people you can meet when you drive slowly. Especially the nice ones with blue lights on the top of the car. We got stopped twice on the way to his house. Luckily they took pity on us and did not give us a ticket. My friend that the trailer is at his house is an expert welder so we will go over the trailer and fix the welds and redo the way it was attached. I still believe the hydraulic pump will work if it worked before. I will give more details as we get things fixed.

 

[gemini5362]

Starter motors are quite powerful and can most likely power a hydraulic pump in this application. My concern is not so much whether or not it can put out the requisite power but if it can put out the requisite power long enough. Most stuff written regarding cranking an engine warn you to not exceed a relatively brief period like 30 sec and to "rest" the starter for so many minutes between attempts.

I would not have the patience to lift the load a fraction of the way and then wait a few min to lift it another portion. It could easily take 3 or more cycles of lift and wait to get a complete dump and that could easily take 15 min to be safe and not burn out the motor. This is speculation on my part. Reality trumps speculation so if a starter motor works and lasts it is a good solution.

Pat

My friend that I talk about spent a lot of years in the testing department of Baldor motors and is pretty much an expert in motors. We agree that a starter motor turning a hydraulic pump is a lot less of a load than trying to turn over a motor against the compression it
has. Even if it does burn it up I wont be using it on a regular basis and starters are pretty easy to get parts for or other starters. Actually I could go to Autozone and get a starter with a lifetime guarantee and not worry about it again. We will see what happens I will probably try to adapt the starter motor to run with the power supply while I am waiting to get time to fix the broken welds on the axle.

 

[gemini5362]

Actually allan all the parts that you mention are on the trailer or at least they were. The hydraulic power supply and the switching valve are all in one unit and it is connected to the ram with two hoses. Now as to why I say they were. It is almost prophetic that I started this thread. When I started it I was thinking about some of the people that talk about modifying trailers or buying them and I was wondering about the certification. Now let me tell you what happened today. I went to get the trailer, like I said it is a homemade trailer that the owner took a dump bed off of and put it on the trailer. I checked to make sure how the hydraulic pump hooked up to a motor and made sure everything was there but the motor. I hooked the trailer up and started for home. I went about 80 out of the 120 miles I had to go and everything was great the trailer pulled well it was a nice size to match what I wanted etc. I heard a loud noise and looked in my rear view mirror and saw the axle flying through the air. The previous owner had not did a very good job attaching the axles to the trailer and his weld broke. I was very fortunate. I was on a major highway and when the axle broke loose there were no cars in sight. No one behind me or no one coming towards me. The axle hit the ground and I stopped the pickup and the trailer frame over on the shoulder. I got out to get the axle and it had started rolling down a hill towards me. I realized that I did not want to try to stop it because it was rolling probably 20 or 30 miles an hour so I dodged it and watched it change directions and roll accross the highway. The axle started up a small hill and lost momentum. I ran up to it and got it stopped before it could roll down again. A car stopped and two young men helped me to roll it back to the trailer and lift it inside of it. I looked to see what had been damaged and noticed the hydraulic pump gone. It was sitting on the front of the trailer but underneath the frame. I went back up the road and found it. The mounting brackets were gone but it actually seemed to hold up ok. I left the trailer where it was and went to a friends house that was about 20 miles from where it broke. We went back with a jack and some chains. We jacked up the trailer and set the axles underneath it. We ran a chain around the axle and put a bolt through the chain holding it around the axle. We ran one end to the end of the trailer and the other end to the front of the trailer. We used a load binder to tighten it down. We did the same thing on the other side. We hooked the trailer back up and then
drove slowly 10-20 mph back to his house. It is amazing the nice people you can meet when you drive slowly. Especially the nice ones with blue lights on the top of the car. We got stopped twice on the way to his house. Luckily they took pity on us and did not give us a ticket. My friend that the trailer is at his house is an expert welder so we will go over the trailer and fix the welds and redo the way it was attached. I still believe the hydraulic pump will work if it worked before. I will give more details as we get things fixed.

 

[patrick_g]

You are having way too much fun. You may exceed your quota early in the period and not receive another allocation till next period. How boring that will be.

Glad there was no serious loss of material or worse!!!

YIKES!!!! So, are you psychic, or what? Move over Chris Angel.

Serious part: Yeah, I agree about the load being less and life being longer but have no personal experience and would just try it and see. If it works you are a great shirtsleeve engineer and if it fails you just admit it was a long shot that was fun to try and go to plan B.

What a horror story your trip could have been. Stuff like that gets innocent people killed. Can't say the junk yard guy actually knew it was dangerous as he may have been unaware just how poor his welds were.

Our local trailer manufacturer was working in the oil fields when there was a big industry slowdown/collapse. He opened an independent welding shop and was NOT getting enough business to pay rent (too many armatures who think they are welders) and started building a few trailers to stay busy and make a few $ while waiting to establish his welding business.

He now is the owner of a nice little trailer manufacturing operation with about a dozen employees and 30 years of track record. They build good trailers at a good price.

holttrailers.com Folks drive quite a ways to buy from him because of reputation, quality, and price. I have bought two from him and have been very pleased.
It is one of the Holt trailers to which I hope to add a removable dump box accessory as well as a removable stock trailer enclosure.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

Pat thanks for the kind words. I was a bit upset about the trailer not making it home before it broke but I kept reminding myself how fortunate I was in the timeing. Absolutely no one got hurt or was even in the way to get scared. It was a nice day and normally the motorcycle riders are out enjoying it but the forecast was for severe weather and it was extremely windy. If a motorcyclist had been behind me the axle would have hit them right in the upper body and they probably would have been killed. The road that I was on when it happened is a major highway but not an interstate. If It had lasted another 30 miles I would have been on the interstate and that would have been much more of a danger. If I had not found it was bad while I was working on the hydraulics. I would have filled it with several ton of gravel and then when it broke that would have been a very difficult situation to deal with.

I am going to try the starter motor. It has a few things going for that Idea.
the main thing being that the starter motor is free. My friend where the trailer is has a bunch of starters he has salvaged over the years so we will see what we can do about making an adapter. Like you very correctly pointed out. If it works then it is great and if it doesnt then it was an interesting thing to try.

 

[AlanB]

Man Gem, while it may not feel like it at the moment (although it sounds like you realize it) man, were you lucky. Glad you were able to get it sorted and home (or to a good shop I guess)

I guess I misunderstood, I thought this bed had come off a truck with a PTO which would have had a very different type system. Sounds like you are in luck.

I spent my day making my spreading tailgate into barn doors. Grabbed a couple pictures so I will post on a seperate thread.

Thank goodness nobody got hurt.