Tillers vs. Plows

[Birdbrain]

Hi Folks,
What are your preferences for tilling the garden or a few (~5) acres? I have thick topsoil, flat land, no rocks and some drainage issues in spots. To date, I have plowed and disked. I will be buying a new tractor soon and would like to know some opinions / preferences in order choose new implements.

Thanks,
Glen

 

[Barneyhunts]

Hi! Welcome to this site! My property has a lot of rocks. I have a rototiller that mounts to a 22 Hp Kubota BX 2200 and I used that to open up a new garden. I had to take shallow cuts (1 1/2 - 2") and pick rock between every pass until I was several inches deep. Since that first year tilling has been a pleasure, though I still have to pick some rock every year. Last Year I plowed and disced about 2 acres to plant food plots. There was so much stone that I couldn't imagine using a tiller, but, if the stone wasn't there I would have preferred a tiller. A bigger one than the one I use in my garden.

 

[Birdbrain]

I should add that we have always plowed and disked every spring to turn under last year's garden leftovers. I have the added benefit of a Farmall A to cultivate for weed control through the growing season.

 

[sunspot]

Hi, I'm new to this but I have been doing a lot of reading here at TBN. There seems to be an issue about using a tiller only. Some feel it will create a hardpan below where the tines can reach.
Based on my reading, I'm going to plow when needed and then use a disc and a drag harrow for the finishing touch. YMMV.

 

[Birdbrain]

Keep thinking of things. I have always enjoyed plowing even with the undersized tractor and piece of junk plows that we have used for years. I am excited about the idea of plowing and working the land with a new tractor, more horsepower and properly sized implements. It should be a lot better than before.

Last year, my dad had his garden worked with a tiller by a neighbor. I thought it worked the ground up into a fluff. So while that is my only experience, my bias is against a tiller.

Leads me into another question about the size tractor needed to plow. In researching what we had on the farm when I was growing up (as a baseline for comparison), I found that a Farmall A (16 hp) was billed as a 'one plow tractor', an H (25 hp) as a 2 plow, and a M (35 hp) as a 3 plow. How would that translate to a modern tractor with 4WD? What are the plowing capabilities of various 20-40 hp tractors? What combinations of tractor / plow/ acres does anyone have?

Thanks,
Glen

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Plow then TILL. That's what I do with my garden. Tiller works deeper than without plowing. If you like plowing, there's not too many reasons to STOP.

ANY tillage method, short of subsoiling/deep ripping/chisel plowing will create some degree of plow pan. I use a subsoiler on my garden every few years to break that compaction layer. Not many tillage tools do more to compact soil than a disc. They loosen a few inches and pack everything under that level.

While I was still farming, I rotated corn and soybeans in 2 fields for near 30 years. They were plowed and disced before corn, and disced before soybeans were planted. 8" to 10" down it was like hitting a layer of asphalt. That's why old school tillage methods have all but disappeared from farming

 

[RFB]

F.W.J.,

"old school tillage methods have all but disappeared"

What methods are now being utilized, and what is your opinion regarding same?

 

[radman1]

F.W.J.,

"old school tillage methods have all but disappeared"

What methods are now being utilized, and what is your opinion regarding same?

We rotate between soybeans and corn on our fields. We do "no till" on nearly all of our soybeans and corn. We use a rolling stalk chopper on the corn, and then planter on the previous corn fields. Soybeans have very little remaining residue and just get planted. Many farmers still disc their fields but becoming less common every year. The plow is nearly extinct for farming in my area. My brother bought an 8 bottom JD land plow a few years ago for $500 in excellent condition. He was bidding against the iron recycling guy. (A land plow is big enough so the tractor dual rear wheels don't have to follow in the furrow and tractor stays up on the "land".)

 

[Z-Michigan]

We rotate between soybeans and corn on our fields. We do "no till" on nearly all of our soybeans and corn. We use a rolling stalk chopper on the corn, and then planter on the previous corn fields. Soybeans have very little remaining residue and just get planted. Many farmers still disc their fields but becoming less common every year. The plow is nearly extinct for farming in my area.

This is what I see all the local farmers doing... except I don't know what a rolling stalk chopper is, so I can't tell if they're using those or conventional disk harrows. But they do no-till apart from any disking (maybe this = reduced tillage) using herbicides. One farmer pulls a big wagon sprayer with a tractor, another rents the farm co-op's enormous JD self propelled sprayer. I do have to wonder whether sprayer ruts are an issue?

The farmer who uses the wagon sprayer mentioned he was going to "zone tillage" as of this past spring, which I understand uses a specialized type of chisel plow/subsoiler to open up the root zone only where the planter will put seed, to maximize root growth without using ridiculous amounts of HP for the tillage.

I don't see turning plows in use much. The son of the second farmer has what looks like a 7-shank subsoiler, but I haven't seen him using it. The one farm I have seen using turning plows regularly is a dedicated onion farm, that has incredibly black soil. They use serious cover crops/green manure to keep their soil that rich, and turn it under in spring with a turning plow - I think a 6 or 7 moldboard plow pulled by a tractor in the 100hp range.

 

[Jim-Satoh]

Many guys have different opinions about gardening, but a lot of it has too do with where you live and type of soil. I discoverd in real loose soil with a lot of compost, small amounts of top soil and clay you are in for a rough time. What I mean is that you plow or till down so deep that the soil can not hold the root systems of top heavy plants, like tomatoes, corn, squash and others.
Its good to plow, disc and find out what your garden space is at first starting out, like breaking new ground, clearing out large rocks that will damage equipment. Once my garden spot is established, I use the Buck with a 4' Befco roto-tiller to loosen the soil to a depth of about 3-4 inches and it also makes a bed 4' wide.
The bottom ground is hard enough to support the plants. I till my garden all year spring, summer during the growing cycles and fall as I prepare it for the next season, adding leaves and other compost.
I guess the fool proof way to determine the soil condition is to dig down and pick-up a hand full of dirt and ball it up in your hand. Drop or release it and watch what it does. If the ball hits the ground you are fine, if it is fine powdery soil and not compact, than you have what I mentioned above---TROUBLE---Too much organic compost--Yup its good, but you can over do it also.

Things like manures and things--it is best to place them in a barrel in the hot-hot sun or on a plastic tarp and cover it with a tarp. This kills grass seeds / fungus. A clear plastic tarp or cover will solarize the soil also and kill grass, bad fungus. Use a premium grade fertilizer with calcium.---I am not an expert, but some things I learned the hard way.

I think I have talked myself out of selling my Farmall Cub with all of the plows, to cultivate between the rows. Guys do I need both tractors--my wife said no---Need some advice at the end.----Thanks guys--sorry for the long post----Jim

 

[Farmwithjunk]

F.W.J.,

"old school tillage methods have all but disappeared"

What methods are now being utilized, and what is your opinion regarding same?

Once upon a time EVERYONE used moldboard plows as primary tillage. There's still a few full-time farmers using them, but they've become quite rare. In the 1960's chisel plowing really took off. A typical high horsepower farm tractor can pull a chisel plow that's somewhat wider than the moldboard plow it's capable of toting. In addition, a chisel plow helps eliminate "plow pan" or a compaction layer just below the depth a moldboard plow operates at. Chisel plowing has remained a popular way to deep till.

Deep ripping has become the catch phrase for what is essentially "subsoiling" on a larger scale. Mostly done in the fall, ripping does what chiseling does, only deeper.

Discing has a bad habit of compacting soil. Farmers still disc on occasion, but it's fell out of popularity in many cases. Field cultivators can do basically the same job with better results in most conditions.

A combination of a disc and a deep ripper, conveniently named a DISC RIPPER has become popular with operators owning big, high horsepower 4wd's. It works deep AND gives a bit of "finish" to the seedbed. They're a "one pass" tillage method in some soil conditions.

Zone tillage is catching on. Only strip a few inches wide is tilled, then crop is seeded into that narrow strip. Saves fuel, controls erosion, and has much the same effect as full scale tilling.

No-till is big and getting bigger. Crop science has developed where yields are higher with no-till than conventional farming techniques in many cases. Fuel is saved, compaction is reduced, and TIME is saved. One issue with no-till, it allows farmers into fields when they're a wet. And that leads to compaction. In areas where climate conditions are a bit cooler during planting season no-tilling hasn't caught on quite as well. Tillage helps warm soil as well as helping excessive moisture evaporate.

I spent my farming carreer doing things one way. I plowed, disced 2 or 3 times, planted, sprayed, cultivated several times, and then harvested. It worked, but was time/labor intensive and used a LOT of what was once cheap fuel. If I was a young farmer today, no doubt about it, I'd be a no-till a no-till farmer. It works extremely good in this area. It ain't pretty. Burnt weeds in the spring after a chemical "burn down", no-tilling doesn't have that same look as a well tilled field with a young emerging corn crop, but it much more profitable, consistant, and efficient.

 

[Oleozz]

We still have some farmers in this area who moldboard plow, my next door neighbor for one and my cousin. By far the most popular is no-till.
I am going to be entering ground this spring that hasn't been turned over in 20 plus years. It is heavy sod with lots of multiflura rose and weeds such as posion ivy. I will be plowing it under with an IH 720 4btm. 18 inch. It's a plow noted for its ability to not clog up and turn the ground over well. I am then going to go over it with a heavy duty 18 ft IH disc. After several yrs of this I hope to get rid of the plow and disc, once the ground is again under my control, and go no-till.

 

[RalphVa]

A lot of farmers are going no till. Virginia Tech is actually doing some research into developing implements to down cover crops and then to drill seeds into what's left.

I'm doing no till by just using mulch and buckwheat to control weeds/moisture loss.

Worms and nematodes work with plant material and mulch over the winter and make lots of tunnels useful to conducting both oxygen and moisture deeper into the earth. You destroy these tunnels with a rototiller and disrupt them plenty with a plow. I don't really use any fertilizer. None is needed. Worms will make lots of poop.

Sure, there's some macho satisfaction in plowing and discing and generally running the tractor, but is this the best thing to do?

Ralph

 

[PA hayseed]

How does this (no till) apply to small food plots/gardeners/hobby farmers?

In my situation, my friend and I found a guy who owns many acres of old farmland. The guy will lease us (for $1 just wants an agreemnt) a couple of acres for us to put some tomatoes on. The ground WAS farmland about 10 years ago, but last had cattle on it. The ground is hard as rock, and will likely not take the tomatoes easily (we're going with seedlings, as there is a greenhouse nearby that will sell us flats dirt cheap). In another area, we are putting in some melons (musk not water). In total I would say we are only doing about 8-10 acres - nowhere near farm level.

So, having only known plow techniques prior to this, does this really apply to me. I can't see me spraying the ground then putting seedling in it. I have never tried it, so I am asking those of you who posted here that know.

I live in the mountains in PA. Our ground is normally hard, shale/flyash/rock, with minimal topsoil layer. Our growing season is from around memorial day to labor day. Most hobby farmers/gardeners in my area get manure, compost, vegetation, sawdust, chickenpoo, whatever, and till it in the ground to increase soil base and quality. Mix in some additivies for your needs alkaline or acidic, and add water and pray for rain and sunshine (of course in perfectly equal amounts which you never get). I like to add peat moss/topsoil/manure into my gardens, but will likely not do that on this big a scale. I do some composting, and have access to lots of composting material for larger scale needs.

Any input would be helpful, as this thread set me back to rethinking my attack plan this spring.

 

[redneckexplorer]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/nh-owning-operating/113827-tc-40-two-bottom-16-a-new-post.html

Something I posted related to plowing.

 

[Barneyhunts]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/nh-owning-operating/113827-tc-40-two-bottom-16-a-new-post.html

Something I posted related to plowing.

Redneckexplorer,
I found the comment about removing the loader to increase rear wheel traction interesting. Did you ever try it? I wonder how the loading compares to hanging weight on the front end?
Thanks

 

[hdbikercouple]

for what you are doing i would mold board plow. fyi i live about 40 miledsnorth east of harrisburg. on your tomatoe plants are you going to lay black (plastic) down so you don't have as many weeds to control?

 

[maxwell1]

Hi Folks,
What are your preferences for tilling the garden or a few (~5) acres? I have thick topsoil, flat land, no rocks and some drainage issues in spots. To date, I have plowed and disked. I will be buying a new tractor soon and would like to know some opinions / preferences in order choose new implements.

Thanks,
Glen

I have a TO-35 Ferguson tractor. I have plows, disc and a 5 ft. tiller.

I do like the tiller, it does a good job on preparing the seed bed after you work the ground and disc. However, the plows will leave the ground uneven with furrows on each side, but they will turn stuff under if needed.

I also have a (field cultivator) that does a great job of breaking up the ground, leaves it level, then you can disc and till.

Would not be without this tool, do not know why the country is not full of them.

look up on yahoo!!
Re: Ferguson BO Field Cultivator Differences

Note: Tiller will leave seed bed so loose that some seeds have a hard time coming up if it rains between planting and the comeup. I really like to prepare the seedbed with disc, but then again I am old school.

Just my two cents!!

 

[Farmwithjunk]

A lot of farmers are going no till. Virginia Tech is actually doing some research into developing implements to down cover crops and then to drill seeds into what's left.

I'm doing no till by just using mulch and buckwheat to control weeds/moisture loss.

Worms and nematodes work with plant material and mulch over the winter and make lots of tunnels useful to conducting both oxygen and moisture deeper into the earth. You destroy these tunnels with a rototiller and disrupt them plenty with a plow. I don't really use any fertilizer. None is needed. Worms will make lots of poop.

Sure, there's some macho satisfaction in plowing and discing and generally running the tractor, but is this the best thing to do?

Ralph

Worms and their "residue" don't come even remotely close to replacing soil nutrients on their own where a crop is taken from the land. Fertilizer of some sort, be it natural or synthetic, must be re-applied, or over time the soil will become depleted. Worms do help build soil structure and do replace SOME soil nutrients. More correctly, they help break down decaying matter and convert it into usefull nutrients. They cannot create matter. If those nutrients aren't there to begin with, albiet in an unusable form (to the plants), even those industrious little worms won't do anything to replentish the soil.

The most successful no-till programs rely on PROPER application of fertilizers as needed.

No-till also requires certain climatic conditions to work. Try selling the no-till concept to farmers in the northern plains states. Turning soil over helps to warm and dry the germination zone. If soil temps are allowed to rise naturally, then planting is delayed to the point where growing seasons become too short to raise an adaquate crop. Every farming practice has it's time and place.

 

[ampsucker]

correct me if i'm wrong, but no-till requires chemicals to kill weeds, right? so, it is totally not an option for anyone wanting to stay close to organic.

i am breaking up hard clay right now with a plow. i think the big giant "rocks" of clay will break up in the next hard rain and i'm going to add a ton of organics (literally) and then maybe bake it with some black plastic and try to grow some sprawling melon vines over the plastic this first year. then this fall plant a good cover crop i can plow under in the spring and might have something decent to work with next year.

if i had a good 3pt tiller, i'd go that route to help break up the giant clods. otherwise, i believe in keeping good particle size and not making the seed bed too fine, so a tiller wouldn't be my first choice. something that mimics the action of a large pitchfork to gentle turn over the soil is the best option for small scale organic growers. closest to that is a moldboard plow.

amp