The WICKED Root & Debris GRAPPLE!!!!!!!

[blin]

Island Tractor..... have you ever used any grapples other than your 48" non-EA single lid that you boast so much about, but doesn't come close to the quality of EA? (Your words from previous posts)

I started with the thumbless type called..... forks. The first thing I learned is the further they are spaced the better balanced the load. If you use the same philosophy for the grapple which adds the lid or "thumb" you are holding the load in place. The wider the grapple the better balanced the load, and the less stress put on the lid to hold it in place. Especiallly if it is a single lid. A double lid would change the pivot points of the load and stress is reduced. Single or double lids are a matter of choice. If you are in big fields and can center your grapple on a rock, root ball or brush pile, then a single lid is great. If you have multiple tines beyond the edge of your lid (good for balance) but are working up close to trees and other obstructions that inhibit you from getting the thumb close to objects, then a dual lid might be the way to go. Better balance and pick up options, but more weight, and a little slower. There are pros and cons to all the various sizes and combinations. I have a single lid 60" EA Grapple on my 43hp tractor. It will pick up a lot more material then my forks at their widest setting (about 4'). I am very happy with it. I have never used a double lid grapple, but I can surmise where two lids can be better than one. You are obviously a smart man and passionate about tractors and attachments, but is it possible to back off on the criticism of EA, and the quick judgement of other posters on this page. I think that most serious folks looking into a grapple will go way back and read many of the 1,500 plus posts on this subject. Your repetition gets old, and the value you do offer gets lost in your zest to be right constantly.
Just my opinion.

You can lead a horse to water.....

We don't know why EA recommends the 60 (they seem to recommend anything that someone wants to buy) nor do we have any specifics on what BEF intends to use the grapple for. Hard to engage without data.

Most importantly, everybody is happy with their grapple no matter what type or size.

 

[IslandTractor]

Island Tractor..... have you ever used any grapples other than your 48" non-EA single lid that you boast so much about, but doesn't come close to the quality of EA? (Your words from previous posts)

I started with the thumbless type called..... forks. The first thing I learned is the further they are spaced the better balanced the load. If you use the same philosophy for the grapple which adds the lid or "thumb" you are holding the load in place. The wider the grapple the better balanced the load, and the less stress put on the lid to hold it in place. Especiallly if it is a single lid. A double lid would change the pivot points of the load and stress is reduced. Single or double lids are a matter of choice. If you are in big fields and can center your grapple on a rock, root ball or brush pile, then a single lid is great. If you have multiple tines beyond the edge of your lid (good for balance) but are working up close to trees and other obstructions that inhibit you from getting the thumb close to objects, then a dual lid might be the way to go. Better balance and pick up options, but more weight, and a little slower. There are pros and cons to all the various sizes and combinations. I have a single lid 60" EA Grapple on my 43hp tractor. It will pick up a lot more material then my forks at their widest setting (about 4'). I am very happy with it. I have never used a double lid grapple, but I can surmise where two lids can be better than one. You are obviously a smart man and passionate about tractors and attachments, but is it possible to back off on the criticism of EA, and the quick judgement of other posters on this page. I think that most serious folks looking into a grapple will go way back and read many of the 1,500 plus posts on this subject. Your repetition gets old, and the value you do offer gets lost in your zest to be right constantly.
Just my opinion.

Fair critique. A couple of answers to your questions: I have operated a double lid grapple but have never owned one or used it except in demonstration with debris in a dealer lot. Same for bucket grapple. Never used a stump grapple. I own forks but have no jaw attached.

Regarding your point about whether a wider grapple would be better for wide loads is that I guess the question comes down to loading it properly. I load trees and lift without the jaw closed so it is balanced before I close the lid for travel. Sometimes I need to move the load a foot or two but I've gotten pretty good at predicting the center of gravity. I don't see that a wider grapple would make much difference there. In fact it might allow you to inadvertently carry an imbalanced load which could be dangerous when you move.

It is commonly believed that dual lids offer more secure clamping of asymmetrical loads. I've never had any issue clamping asymmetrical loads with my single lid so I wonder where that "common knowledge" comes from. I've posted a few photos of asymmetrical loads that I routinely clamp with no issue at all below. Dual lids are clearly better for picking up loose construction debris but that just isn't how most CUTs are used. Dual lids are more practical on 72" and wider grapples as a single lid would have to be very big to cover roughly half that length.

The whole single or dual lid issue is contentious largely because there is simply no reliable or objective data for use of grapples on CUTs. It is a pretty recent development. Fifteen years ago there were almost no CUTs with grapples. Only WRLong and a few other places recognized that grapples, until then really a skidsteer implement or utility tractor implement, could be useful on CUTs. The initial grapples put on CUTs were skidsteer grapples and gradually slightly smaller versions of the same. Skidsteer grapples have good reason to have dual lids as they are often wide and used to collect construction debris. They also used heavy duty root rakes or clamshells which are not as generally useful for common CUT tasks. Lighter duty grapples better suited for general use on CUTs are a more recent development. I don't think even WRLong added their open bottom grapple until maybe ten years ago. EA didn't focus on CUTs until just a few years ago. Point is that there was nobody sitting down and working out what would work best on CUTs and then designing such a device, testing it and revising. As best I can tell there have simply been incremental changes in traditional skidsteer grapple types that have slowly morphed into sizes and types more suited for CUTs. No engineer wrote out a list of requirements. No marketing types funded research. No comparative testing. No beta testing by consumers. We have dual and single lid grapples simply because skidsteers had them first. I should point out that in fairness, EA has done more work to develop smaller grapples for CUTs than just about any other manufacturer but it is still mostly a matter of tweaking old skidsteer designs. The subcompact EA grapple is as close to a breakthrough product as anyone had come up with in this area at least since I've been involved with TBN.

I know that there is lots of repetition in this thread. Grapples aren't all that complicated so it is hard to imagine 1600 posts that are all original. The thread is largely a marketing tool for EA and there is certainly a lot of repetition there. That's their business and perfectly understandable but that doesn't seem to preclude more open discussion of grapple selection issues. If I rag on them occasionally it isn't because I don't respect their grapples as I recommend them highly. Rather it is because IMO they seem to use this thread to sell grapples rather than to discuss them and TBN is a discussion forum. I appreciate that for a salesman interested in increasing sales, you take the lead from your customer and sell him what he wants. I know EA is responsible and isn't selling 72" heavy duty grapples to guys with BXs but at the same time they don't add much data or comparative testing of products to help make evidence based grapple selection easier. They are in a great position to have a dual versus single lid shootout or a 32" 37" 42" opening shootout or a 48, 60, 72 comparison. They do great videos but they seem to have stopped doing the really educational ones (like when Ted used to do videos showing exactly how to set up a boxblade or plow etc with Peanut demonstrating). It would be helpful to all if those sorts of activities were done as part of CUT grapple development by EA. So long as there is an absence of such data though I think it is fair for anyone with grappling experience to chime in when the typical "what grapple should I buy" question comes up. And, I'll offer a different opinions if EA keeps advising that people should just select one of theirs without offering advice or rationale beyond "whatever you want". Bottom line, there are lots of issues in grapple selection and this is a discussion forum not just a marketing tool. Sorry if I sound zealous at times. I like folks to get the right implement not just one chosen uncritically or without understanding the issues.

 

[blin]

What I am saying is that you can only expertly comment on your particular grapple. Unless you go out and buy every size and style and personally use each one until you are an expert on all, you don't have the right to insert your opinion as fact. Since EA manufactures their equipment and have made and sold hundreds, if not thousands of these units. They have received all kinds of feedback from their customers that you would have no knowledge of. I think you need to give them a lot more respect! They are making changes and improvements to their products on a regular baisis. They may not be the changes that you want, but too bad. It's their company not yours. Make your recommendations, if ignored, suck it up, drop it and move on.
I have bought several products from them and they have worked with me to help get the right product for my needs. Your continuous statements that they are just salesmen and will sell whatever the customer wants is false and slanderous. EA is enthusiastic about their products. Their service is top notch, as are their products. If your as big an EA fan as you say you are why not post a few posts of just positive stuff? Go back and look at your past 50 posts to this page. I suspect less than 25% are positive or even neutral without some kind of jab. With friends like you ........
I appreciate your reply, but I had read it all before, numerous times. You reacted quickly but missed my point.
Just my opinion.
Regards,

Fair critique. A couple of answers to your questions: I have operated a double lid grapple but have never owned one or used it except in demonstration with debris in a dealer lot. Same for bucket grapple. Never used a stump grapple. I own forks but have no jaw attached.

Regarding your point about whether a wider grapple would be better for wide loads is that I guess the question comes down to loading it properly. I load trees and lift without the jaw closed so it is balanced before I close the lid for travel. Sometimes I need to move the load a foot or two but I've gotten pretty good at predicting the center of gravity. I don't see that a wider grapple would make much difference there. In fact it might allow you to inadvertently carry an imbalanced load which could be dangerous when you move.

It is commonly believed that dual lids offer more secure clamping of asymmetrical loads. I've never had any issue clamping asymmetrical loads with my single lid so I wonder where that "common knowledge" comes from. I've posted a few photos of asymmetrical loads that I routinely clamp with no issue at all below. Dual lids are clearly better for picking up loose construction debris but that just isn't how most CUTs are used. Dual lids are more practical on 72" and wider grapples as a single lid would have to be very big to cover roughly half that length.

The whole single or dual lid issue is contentious largely because there is simply no reliable or objective data for use of grapples on CUTs. It is a pretty recent development. Fifteen years ago there were almost no CUTs with grapples. Only WRLong and a few other places recognized that grapples, until then really a skidsteer implement or utility tractor implement, could be useful on CUTs. The initial grapples put on CUTs were skidsteer grapples and gradually slightly smaller versions of the same. Skidsteer grapples have good reason to have dual lids as they are often wide and used to collect construction debris. They also used heavy duty root rakes or clamshells which are not as generally useful for common CUT tasks. Lighter duty grapples better suited for general use on CUTs are a more recent development. I don't think even WRLong added their open bottom grapple until maybe ten years ago. EA didn't focus on CUTs until just a few years ago. Point is that there was nobody sitting down and working out what would work best on CUTs and then designing such a device, testing it and revising. As best I can tell there have simply been incremental changes in traditional skidsteer grapple types that have slowly morphed into sizes and types more suited for CUTs. No engineer wrote out a list of requirements. No marketing types funded research. No comparative testing. No beta testing by consumers. We have dual and single lid grapples simply because skidsteers had them first. I should point out that in fairness, EA has done more work to develop smaller grapples for CUTs than just about any other manufacturer but it is still mostly a matter of tweaking old skidsteer designs. The subcompact EA grapple is as close to a breakthrough product as anyone had come up with in this area at least since I've been involved with TBN.

I know that there is lots of repetition in this thread. Grapples aren't all that complicated so it is hard to imagine 1600 posts that are all original. The thread is largely a marketing tool for EA and there is certainly a lot of repetition there. That's their business and perfectly understandable but that doesn't seem to preclude more open discussion of grapple selection issues. If I rag on them occasionally it isn't because I don't respect their grapples as I recommend them highly. Rather it is because IMO they seem to use this thread to sell grapples rather than to discuss them and TBN is a discussion forum. I appreciate that for a salesman interested in increasing sales, you take the lead from your customer and sell him what he wants. I know EA is responsible and isn't selling 72" heavy duty grapples to guys with BXs but at the same time they don't add much data or comparative testing of products to help make evidence based grapple selection easier. They are in a great position to have a dual versus single lid shootout or a 32" 37" 42" opening shootout or a 48, 60, 72 comparison. They do great videos but they seem to have stopped doing the really educational ones (like when Ted used to do videos showing exactly how to set up a boxblade or plow etc with Peanut demonstrating). It would be helpful to all if those sorts of activities were done as part of CUT grapple development by EA. So long as there is an absence of such data though I think it is fair for anyone with grappling experience to chime in when the typical "what grapple should I buy" question comes up. And, I'll offer a different opinions if EA keeps advising that people should just select one of theirs without offering advice or rationale beyond "whatever you want". Bottom line, there are lots of issues in grapple selection and this is a discussion forum not just a marketing tool. Sorry if I sound zealous at times. I like folks to get the right implement not just one chosen uncritically or without understanding the issues.

 

[sea2summit]

You can lead a horse to water.....

We don't know why EA recommends the 60 (they seem to recommend anything that someone wants to buy) nor do we have any specifics on what BEF intends to use the grapple for. Hard to engage without data.

Most importantly, everybody is happy with their grapple no matter what type or size.

You're driving me to order a 72" dual lid.

 

[IslandTractor]

What I am saying is that you can only expertly comment on your particular grapple. Unless you go out and buy every size and style and personally use each one until you are an expert on all, you don't have the right to insert your opinion as fact. Since EA manufactures their equipment and have made and sold hundreds, if not thousands of these units. They have received all kinds of feedback from their customers that you would have no knowledge of. I think you need to give them a lot more respect! They are making changes and improvements to their products on a regular baisis. They may not be the changes that you want, but too bad. It's their company not yours. Make your recommendations, if ignored, suck it up, drop it and move on.
I have bought several products from them and they have worked with me to help get the right product for my needs. Your continuous statements that they are just salesmen and will sell whatever the customer wants is false and slanderous. EA is enthusiastic about their products. Their service is top notch, as are their products. If your as big an EA fan as you say you are why not post a few posts of just positive stuff? Go back and look at your past 50 posts to this page. I suspect less than 25% are positive or even neutral without some kind of jab. With friends like you ........
I appreciate your reply, but I had read it all before, numerous times. You reacted quickly but missed my point.
Just my opinion.
Regards,

1) I don't represent my opinions as "fact", I present arguments based on my experience and invite others to do likewise.
2) Do you think TBN would be a useful place to get information if folks withheld commentary unless they had owned and operated every single tractor or every single implement under discussion? Think about it.
3) I post lots of positive stuff about EA and have interacted with them for years. They built the sub compact 50" grapple largely because I made EXACTLY the same repetitive obnoxious arguments you are objecting to. Even they acknowledge that point.
4) EA is by far the most involved grapple manufacturer in the CUT world today. They took over that role from the pioneer Nelson Long about five years ago. EA is the leader and that is why they are the focus of discussions on how to best serve the CUT community. They are the only ones who have made serious attempts to improve the designs and manufacturing methods of CUT oriented grapples. That justifies both praise and explains why they are a focal point for discussions of further needed improvements.
5) You can always add me to your ignore list if you would prefer to simply see photos of the most recent EA sales successes and read repetitive complements to EA rather than constructive criticism.

 

[IslandTractor]

You're driving me to order a 72" dual lid.

Don't stop there. Get a truly manly 1000lb high strength steel claw grapple from Anbo. It will set you back about $4K but I'm sure it will serve you well.

 

[EverythingAttachments]

Don't stop there. Get a truly manly 1000lb high strength steel claw grapple from Anbo. It will set you back about $4K but I'm sure it will serve you well.

Come on, IT. Are you off your meds today? :laughing:
Travis

 

[IslandTractor]

Come on, IT. Are you off your meds today? :laughing:
Travis

Yep. Feels great! :cool2:

 

[jmc]

I wish EA would hurry up and invent the perfect grapple for everyone so we can move on and argue about which grapple color is optimum.

 

[aeblank]

Or argue about engine oil. Or Ford vs Chevy?