The cost of metal what to do?

SCRich · Apr 14, 2007

OK guys, many of you seem to be very adept and avid welders. I started welding a couple of years ago but actually quit when I was going broke buying raw materials. The wife started getting upset since it was often cheaper to buy the item needed than to make it myself if it were available.

A good example is a 3pt log splitter, saw one today at Northern for $499, I think I would spend at least $400 in the steel!

I had started with a Lincon 145 (I think) MIG and was going to buy a AC/DC stick to go with it but held off after some of the material costs at the metal yard. I still have the MIG, just bought some land, a new tractor and I think welding is in the future again for me.

I see some REALLY great projects here, it's got me really interested again in welding BUT how in the world can you afford to build these items with the price of steel the way it is now ?

I'd like to know how everyone does it and what some of the resources are. If just a simple school locker size oven cost me over $200 in materials I can just guess what a box blade or some other implement can cost!

Thomas · Apr 14, 2007

Over the years I had some luck at auctions also junk dealers....little extra work in cleaning but well worth it.

EdC · Apr 14, 2007

Scrap bins at steel yards. You will not get exactly the right size but if you are patient you can do pretty well.

sandman2234 · Apr 14, 2007

You have to have a source for used steel, and somewhere to store it if your going to build stuff. No matter what the project, your not going to use all the steel if you buy new pieces, and those pieces just became the start of the next or future project.
I dropped a trailer off at a repair shop, and noticed they were removing roller beds from a couple of tractor trailers. I inquired with the boss as to being able to purchase the roller beds. He quoted me a price,($300) and told me he would stack them up out of the way till I could come get them. I came back in two hours, and they were all in the dumpster. He said his guys forgot. The 5" channel they removed with the rollers was all mixed up with it, and required a forklift to remove. He loaned me theirs with the understanding that I would clean up my mess after separating the channel from the rollers.
I asked what it would take to buy everything in the dumpster, he quoted me another price ($400) and I agreed. A couple trailer loads of "junk" to the house, sold a few of the roller beds to pay for the whole project, and had a few left over, plus a bunch of 5" channel that had bends, welds and twists in it.
Over the last couple of months, that 5" channel has become the framework for my dump/flatbed trailer. It was a lot more trouble to use than new steel would have been, but without the pain in the rear pocket, so I figure I got off cheap.
I may be buying some flat sheets for the deck covering, as the aluminum I have just isn't working out right. I will feel the pain of it when I do that, I am sure.
David from jax

philbuilt · Apr 14, 2007

SCRich,
Try to find a large sign shop one that has cranes and service trucks. The larger shops install signs for other sign shops. Most shops have scap piles that they would normally sell at the scales. They also have take downs.
Steel pipe, alot of angle, I-beams, square tube and channel.
Phil

bobodu · Apr 14, 2007

We have a surplus steel company here that sells cutoffs/drops/and out of spec steel for 30 cents a pound.
Bait the curb for scrap guys with a little piece of steel.When one comes buy to take the bait,tell him that you would be interested in some of his "finds" and pay him douple what the scrap yard will pay.

sandman2234 · Apr 14, 2007

Baiting a scrapper is a good thought, but not if you live on a dead end street. Might have to put a sign out, saying I need scrap hauled, inquire down the street. Best way I have found them is park on the street at a red light or stop sign near the scrapyard. Catch them going and give them your phone number and a list of what you need. Double their value and they don't have to cut it up to scrap yard sizes works for them, and delivered (within reason) makes it a win-win situation for you. You might have to buy some stuff you can't use, but figure it into the cost of doing business and send it back with him the next time he comes by, or make a paying trip out of it yourself. All depends on your vehicles and time. Scrapyard here closes early, so I have to take off work to make the trip. I still have the old Ford one ton that I hauled scrap on for years, when I had a job where I didn't work all the time!
All of this requires somewhere to store, process, out of sight of the eyes of passing motorists and wifes that are at least a little torerant of junk, while you are processing it to fit your steel rack. (You will need a steel rack!)
I tend to leave mine in the as-is state until I need it, as you never know just what configuration you will need when you start building stuff.
Not being afraid of asking people (business') what they do with their scrap will be the first hurdle to overcome, having someway to haul it second, some way to store and process it third, and a wife that will let you keep junk around most. A good torch and large bottles is a must, along with several spare tips. If your not very good at using them, you will be by the time you get some scrap cut up into usable pieces that you can store. Good luck with your search!
David from jax

SCRich · Apr 14, 2007

Xcellent ideas guys, I am new to the area so I'll have to do some searching but I think I know of one scrap yard. Storage will be a problem to start since we are renting a home now while the house is built and the house will only have a 2 car garage. I know I'll be building a garage but not like my last one, 1610sq ft Steel Master with a 16ft roof. It was a bear to build on my own with my late Father but we finished it. I got the door knob on finally the week before I left the house for good. Wish he would have seen that day himself!

The wife is cool with it, she has dealt with a few thousand pounds of 2-way radio gear for our 16 years together, what's a few more thousand pounds of steel.

Ford960 · Apr 14, 2007

I always keep my eyes open for bedrail. It's hard to remember all the projects that I've built with it in the last 40 years. Last year I decided that I needed a steel box on my bush hog to carry the chainsaw. While throwing the garbage in the local dumpster I see 2 sets of bedrail that went home with me.
The next day I decided that I needed some steel sheet for the box and sitting next to the dumpster was an old metal filing cabinet that got thrown in the back of the truck. These materials made a nice lockable steel box for free.

Ya gotta keep your eyes open.

Also I have a steel yard about five miles from here were I will buy angle or square tube. They let you walk around the yard and shop and I always ask about a drop of some kind. I buy full lengths and they will cut it while I go up front to pay and they will put the steel in my truck along with any drops that meets my needs. They only charge me for the lengths that I buy. Plus they don't charge me for the cuts. Oh, and the woman in the office is a real looker.

SCRich · Apr 14, 2007

Ford960 said:
They only charge me for the lengths that I buy. Plus they don't charge me for the cuts. Oh, and the woman in the office is a real looker.

And you are going to tell me you are in Meck County ? just a few moments over the border from me ? I'd like to go and check out the office... I mean these deals you are telling me about.

AlanB · Apr 15, 2007

And even with all the deals in the world, it is still best to sometimes just go buy new, or completed, then to try and fabricate it all yourself.

bobodu · Apr 15, 2007

AlanB said:
And even with all the deals in the world, it is still best to sometimes just go buy new, or completed, then to try and fabricate it all yourself.

Good one!!! LOL

Ummmm.......you WERE kidding...right????

Renze · Apr 15, 2007

My neighbor is a pure bred scavenger, and his favo quote is: " youve either gotta keep your eyes open, or keep your wallet open"

He's very right.

I bought a self loading 3pt hitch feed dosing bunker, for 250 euro last year. I also bought a flail shredder for straw, with the intention to join both into a big bale shredder for our 30 horses (of which 15 of people that rent a stable at our place )

Right now i have different plans, i also wanted to build a bush hog (in Holland there arent any second hand ones available, only light duty pasture toppers but no brush cutters) but i decided to replace the straight blades of the swath chopper/spreader for the optional heavier cupped blades, so i can use it as a brush mulcher. The feed bunk i put on the internet again, because i dont have enough time either.
On this dosing bunk, with a self loading comb, conveyor and loosenign drum, there are 2 hydraulic motors, 2 very nice cylinders and a few meters of fairly new hydraulic hose. If i had to buy those hoses new i'd be spending at least 400 Euro. Then there is the spool valve block, sprockets and chains, a few meters of usefull tube steel and there is a couple of 100 kg of scrap steel, which is worth about 14 cents per kilo right now.

When i bring a car to the wreckyard, the rear axle and complete front end with transaxle is saved for later, there is allways a use for a good axle with a commony available tire and rim size.

When i put old wagons to the scrap, i cut off as many tube and profiles as i can, they allways come in handy.

When you keep your eyes open for bargains, you can save a lot of money against buying new, or buying at the wrong time, because then you'v got to pull your wallet open.

And IF you have to buy new, have a look around. The average farm dealer sells steel for 3 Euro per kilo, where i buy it from my boss (in exchange for a couple of unofficial saturday working hours) for wholesale purchase price, which is about 1 euro per kilo.

The heavier the beam, the more effort i take to save a small length from a cart of scrap i sell. I just take my time to cut out the usefull pieces and sell the rest for scrap even though i cant wait to start on the next project when i am cleaning up my workshop inbetween projects.

with a bit of creative thinking, you can also use components of old machinery in your new stuff.
Or build a subsoiler, you can use pieces of heavy truck leaf springs as chisels, spring steel matches the wear resistance of manganese steel, though manganese or borium or hardox, is lots more expensive than mild steel, especially if you buy at a local hardware store.

AlanB · Apr 15, 2007

bobodu said:
Good one!!! LOL

Ummmm.......you WERE kidding...right????

No, I was not.

Everyone has to weigh it out for themselves, but depending upon your particular circumstances it may or may not be best to build it all.

I would like to consider myself a decent fabricator, but when it came time for the dump trailer for the business, even though I have been slowly accumulating the parts over the years, when I priced out the additional parts I would need to buy, and compared that too the cost of just going and buying a dump trailer that was immediately useable, I went to the trailer sales place and handed him my money.

Now when it came time with the same trailer, that I wanted the barn doors instead of the drop spread tailgate, I looked at what it would cost to have someone else do it, or to buy it, and looked at what materials and time would cost me, and did that job myself.

IF you have TIME to scrap every project together with discount or salvage materials, that may be great. I guess I am just offering the counterpoint that sometimes, mass manufacturers buying in bulk, assembling multiples of the same item, and cost effectively distributing them, may make it a lot more practical for me to just BUY something then to BUILD it.

I did not build my tractor nor my trucks either.

bobodu · Apr 15, 2007

AlanB said:
No, I was not.

I WAS KIDDING!!! Geez.....

But then again...I do build my tractors and trucks.

Renze · Apr 15, 2007

AlanB said:
And even with all the deals in the world, it is still best to sometimes just go buy new, or completed, then to try and fabricate it all yourself.

On the other hand, when you build your own, you usually build something up to your own standards. Most box blades e.g. i've seen advertised on this page, are flimsy things that i'd twist or break in a matter of minutes, if i used them the way i use stuff that i'd built myself.

SCRich · Apr 15, 2007

bobodu said:
I WAS KIDDING!!! Geez.....

But then again...I do build my tractors and trucks.

It all depends I guess. If we all were a professional welder, worked at a junk yard or was involved in some part of the industry as a profession and had contacts yes we could probably build a lot of these things. Me for instance having been in the 2-way radio business for almost my entire adult life and received a soldering iron and Simpson Volt meter for by 8th birthday can go into my garage right now and build a police/fire/dpw radio SYSTEM in probably less than a day. I got antennas, tower sections, repeaters, mobile radios and even a couple of portables.

I have built up a stock of Motorola radios, once we move to the property maybe even before the tractor, ATV, front gate will have them all set up. Many commercial farmers have paid good money for that, all I got to do is open up a few boxes. The same goes I guess for others here, with 2 or 3 days in the garage you can probably have a box blade welded up just with what you have. In these cases it is CHEAPER for all of us. Now if I had to purchase all of that plate, or you had to purchase all of those radios we would never be able to do it!

I guess my best bet will be to find auction houses that are open on Friday and Saturday nights and search for scrap metal yards. I start building another garage to hold the metal along side of my electronics dump.

cp1969 · Apr 15, 2007

Most of the time, it doesn't matter what it is...implements, furniture, anything...you can't buy the materials for what the finish product costs. I guess it's because the people who manufacture these things have the economy of scale to get the materials for way less and the experience to build them with far fewer hours of labor than you will spend. This isn't always true but most of the time it is. New steel and aluminum are astronomical in price. The last steel I bought was $1.50 per lb; 6061 was running $4-6 per lb. Used material is the only way you can come out.

But, there are times when the available product is just not exactly what you're looking for. If you can look at something and say "this would be just what I want IF it had this particular modification" you might be better off to buy one and modify it or build from scratch, if you can get cheap material. BTW if you do this, you are well on your way to being a real engineer. Not necessarily a book-learned kind, but a real one. One of my professors once said a real engineer, upon seeing something for the first time, immediately starts to think about how it can be improved.

Other times, you may just want to build a MOAC (Mother OF All Contraptions) just to see if it can be done and how it will turn out. Mad Dog's Mother of all PTO Log Splitters was such a project. I wish he'd have finished it.

thingy · Apr 15, 2007

Yeah its expensive alright,,,,nice to do little things though,,clothes line posts,grills,welding tables,metal saw horse,coat hanger things,,etc,and fixing things or improving them some to your needs,things like that that you need but can't really buy what you want as good anyways.
Good to help out your neighbors if they need it,,it will pay off big time sometimes that way.
But you can't compete with a company thats making things for a profit generally,,like kingkutter for instance,,,
on the other hand,,if you got a few hundred bucks to spend on steel,you can get some real satisfaction from making something and it will generally outlast even your kids,,,plus,it'll be one of a kind,,kinda like that credit card commercial,priceless!! thingy