Synthetic vs. Dino. By a Mechanic.

[daugen]

UOA will let you know.

You'll never know for sure without a UOA

Not sure I have a ton of confidence in these electronic nannies, but is the general experience that they accurately reflect oil condition?
I understand the theory, but can you trust them?

Just asking, would like to believe in them more. Just got the one year reminder on my wife's 2010 CTS; she still has half her oil "life" left but she drives less than 5000 miles per year.
Mobil 1 from factory, with Mobil 1 sticker on the engine as delivered new. Interesting tie in. No diff than Corvette and others.

And it really is cool that Onstar with her TPMS actually tells me once per month by email what the tire pressure in each wheel is. And I've found it accurate to within a pound, which is just fine for me.
So that gizmo I've learned to trust. On that car, not all cars. I haven't paid for onstar on my new Suburban, just wanted it for my wife if she got into an accident that deployed her air bags. Instant 911.
We lease her car and buy mine, for good reasons, and hers is up next month. Going to look at a Lincoln MKZ hybrid, when it finally shows up in two or three weeks. The Suburban sucks so much gas it's like driving
an elephant down the road. Trying to ease my proverbial footprint here by at least prioritizing economy on one vehicle. The Passat diesel was a hoot, much more powerful, btw, than I expected, and similar 40+mpg.
But not in the same league of comfort as the highly gussied up Ford Fusion. 45mpg, no way will I get that, but even with a lead foot, 40 would thrill the heck out of me.
Sorry, talk about digressing... at least I'm talking about cars and motors.

I have used Mobil 1 since it came out, a long time ago. But I'm now saving money with Valvoline full synthetic, and when Napa full syn goes on sale. I bought a bunch of cases of full syn Napa oil for four bucks a quart, and it
was made by Valvoline. I also use, and have to "stock" straight weights for my older stuff, just don't want to experiment putting anything other than 30wt in my older K series Kohlers.

Moving away from Mobil 1 has saved me 2-4 bucks a quart. Something tells me with the quality of today's oils, I'm probably not risking much. And now aren't a bunch of oil companies touting they are "better than" Mobil 1?

Now if I owned a Porsche or a Corvette or a 396-425 Chevelle, I'd be putting Amsoil in, or whatever I thought was the very best. Probably more of an emotional decision than scientific for sure.
I have a bunch of mid 80's motors that are likely to continue on good quality dino for some time.

Now what about the green eco oils? Their claims are interesting.
Worried about being an early adopter there.
But then I never thought I could run a diesel car on french fry oil either.

 

[Mickey_Fx]

We all have our preferences but how many of those are based on anything more than anecdotal evidence? Have never ran synthetic nor have seen a need to in the areas where they out perform dino oil. Have been twisting a wrench on my own cars for >50yrs. I typ change oil at ~7k miles, including filter. I am old enough to remember when 1k mi oil changes were the norm. Have never sold a car with less than 150k miles. Last car sold, a Sentra had >250k mis on it and never an engine problem. When I sold it I wouldn't hesitate making a cross country trip with it with nothing more than filling the tank.

Last time I had to do any real work on one of my cars was last yr when I needed to change the timing belt. Here's a pic of the valve train, ~125k miles on the car. Where's the sludge, varnish, etc? All the discoloration is from pooled up dirty oil.

After I start seeing engine problems from using dino oil, then I'll start thinking about synthetic.

YMMV

L

 

[clemsonfor]

Mobil 1 5W-30, 5qt - Walmart.com

5 quarts of full synthetic oil $25 at Wal-Mart.com. Didn't know you could get it this cheap. I may start running it in my EcoBoost.

that's where most of us get it! they make those bottles esp for WM. Sometimes the bottle says something about walmart on it.

 

[kenmac]

Not sure I have a ton of confidence in these electronic nannies, but is the general experience that they accurately reflect oil condition?
I understand the theory, but can you trust them?
.

All the companies that have UOA'S performed don't have it done just because they want to spend $$.They do it to save $$.Acid in oil eats bearings,etc, with UOA, Coolant in oil will show up long before you see it on the dip stick

 

[daugen]

All the companies that have UOA'S performed don't have it done just because they want to spend $$.They do it to save $$.Acid in oil eats bearings,etc, with UOA, Coolant in oil will show up long before you see it on the dip stick

if it does show up, does that just accelerate the perceived mileage usage or does it inform you via Check Engine or whatever?
I've never had an engine fail, so I'm clueless here, but I understand the cross contamination issues such that a head gasket or some gasket is seriously compromised.
So a UOA is actually an effective means of prolonging engine life. OK. I still would change oil when it got to 25% remaining though... old habits die hard.

 

[like2wheel]

Just don't run a motor up to high miles on dino and then swap to synthetic, I know some motors come apart when that is done.

What "comes apart"?

*crickets*


I've done this more than a few times over the years with no ill effects. I've been in the industry for over 35 years & the only issue I've seen is that motors that are leaking oil will leak synthetic at a slightly higher rate.

I'd love to hear the science behind his statement.

 

[kenmac]

if it does show up, does that just accelerate the perceived mileage usage or does it inform you via Check Engine or whatever?
I've never had an engine fail, so I'm clueless here, but I understand the cross contamination issues such that a head gasket or some gasket is seriously compromised.
So a UOA is actually an effective means of prolonging engine life. OK. I still would change oil when it got to 25% remaining though... old habits die hard.

If coolant shows up in a UOA. It's time to change the oil and find out where the coolant is comming from.No Oil life monitor (that I know of ) monitors Low or no TBN,Acid, coolant in oil ,etc. . As oil TBN drops so does your oil's ability to fight acid. I don't know of any large equipment manfacture Cat, Trucking companies,etc, that rely on oil life monitors as a means for fleet maintance.

 

[don45640]

I don't wanna put down yer oil, daugen.....but I think I oughta mention that I remember a synthetic oil report,possibly in consumer reports,that showed Valvoline Full synthetic to be BARELY better than non-synthetic. Just something for you to look into if you care to.
Don't get me wrong...................I think there's a LOT of bias in these magazines.....especially against American car company products Dodge,Ford,Chevy. don-ohio ^)

 

[crazyal]

I change my own oil at 3500. I buy the cheapest name brand stuff I can get, usually Q state or Peak and either a Fram or STP filter. Usually it's about $15 for 5 quarts and a filter. Part of the reason I do so is because I have a car lift so it gives me a chance to get a good look under the car as well as another reason to spend time in the man cave. I've always made it a habit of giving the engine some time to get the oil flowing when the engine is cold before I head out. It's easy for me because I'm at the top of a hill so once I start to move I can coast down the road for the first two minutes. When I have a problem that can be traced to dino oil then I'll think about changing to synthetic but for now the only engine I own that has it is my Kubota, since it doesn't get changed too often.

 

[Coyote machine]

During the late 70's through to the late 80's I owned and ran a foreign auto repair business. Mobil 1 was used exclusively by one customer, and he brought his own oil AND filter to my shop. Everyone else used regular oil. After starting my 1987 Izuzu Trooper on Valentine's day of that year I could clearly hear knocking coming from the engine when it started. I probably only had 3-6K miles on it and the day was 20+ below zero when I went to drive it long distance. It froze up a few miles down the road, but not the engine, instead the fuel lines/filter; and my neighbor, who I barely knew at all came out with a bottle of dry gas from his house and handed it to me! I had turned around to come back home and fortunately for me he must have figured out what had happened and came to the rescue. Man was I fortunate that day, at least in one way.
I had no choice that day but to drive the several hundred miles I need to go to visit my Aunt in the hospital. When I returned I began to notice high oil useage and eventually the dealer put in a short block after insisting on trying a head first- which I knew would not work. I decided to start using Slick 50, a teflon based oil additive. I added it to everything I owned including a high mileage Volvo. I noticed easier starting in extreme cold weather and better overall performance and virtually no oil burning from my vehicles between changes.
Today I use whatever the manufacturer installs in my 4 Toyotas, and after the first scheduled oil change, most recently on my '011 Forerunner at 10,000 miles, I am running whatever synthetic they install at the dealer.
If you're going to use synthetic in a new engine follow what the manufacturer requires to the letter to protect the engine warranty. MOST do not run synthetic for the 'break-in' interval however, because synthetic does NOT help the internal engine parts seat in properly, whereas the dino will allow the parts to 'break-in' properly. After that initial time synthetic is fine.
We used to do and recommend 3k oil changes, and had our customers follow that regimen exactly with dino oil. It help them immensely, because we were able to do tire rotations, check brakes, exhaust, etc., and it gave them peace of mind because we had an outstanding record of nearly zero breakdowns on the road as a result of timely PREVENTATIVE maintenance. Just like a fleet, some customers had two or three foreign cars and wanted this kind of reliability. If their car did break down we would drop whatever we were doing and get someone from my shop out to their car almost immediately.
We burned the 'waste' oil in our waste oil burner to heat our shop. We ran only Castrol GTX oil in 10-30W. We never had any engine related problems with a customer who followed our maintenance schedule. We did replace a lot of water pumps, brakes, tires, exhaust and other things but no engine failures. YMMV

 

[TomSeller]

I haven't changed oil at 3000 miles in many years, never had oil related engine problems.

I always mark mine for a 3000 mile change so that I get around to changing it at about 5000 miles.

 

[TomSeller]

Keep in mind thatwith synthetic oil all the molecules are exactly the same size as with dino they are all different sizes.So if you have a leak with dino oil you will have one **** of a leak with synthetic

Same goes for engines that are built to consume some oil. I have a Cadillac Northstar engine that drinks synthetic oil to the tune of a quart about every 600 miles. But on Dino it gets 2500 miles before needing a quart.

 

[daugen]

I remember a synthetic oil report,possibly in consumer reports,that showed Valvoline Full synthetic to be BARELY better than non-synthetic

yikes....well, maybe that's why I got such a good deal on it. I usually want synthetic for cold weather starting, so if it does that better, and is no worse than dino oil,
which I think we all will agree that the good stuff today really is good..., maybe I got my money's worth for four bucks a quart.
Makes we want to reconsider Tractor Supply's own brand, wonder who makes that?

 

[daugen]

Same goes for engines that are built to consume some oil. I have a Cadillac Northstar engine that drinks synthetic oil to the tune of a quart about every 600 miles. But on Dino it gets 2500 miles before needing a quart.

I've had two cars with that engine, a Cadillac and a Buick Lucerne. The engines were marvelous, made great noises, not a huge amount of power (not a big engine for sure) and was supposed to be the absolute state of the art
when it came out. They even supercharged it for several models. And the thing leaks like a sieve? What was the bad design? Using four times the amount of oil is quite a difference; most of my recent cars haven't used more than half a quart of oil between changes.

 

[clemsonfor]

MOST do not run synthetic for the 'break-in' interval however, because synthetic does NOT help the internal engine parts seat in properly, whereas the dino will allow the parts to 'break-in' properly. After that initial time synthetic is fine.
YMMV

I think this is a often paroted miss information line. I see the point and know some engine manufacturers do say this but if this is the case why do certain cars (germans) some catilacs, corvete other Gms, run SYN from the factory?

 

[dodge man]

The Northstar is a good engine, and yes, it was state of the art when it came out. I don't know where they leak from, normal gaskets I think. Just because its considered a "premium" engine doesn't mean its more immune to leaks than others. Just from what I've read on the internet, the only weak spot is if they overheat. Like most engines, water pumps will fail, and if you run a Northstar hot, they will pull the head bolts out of the aluminum block. This can be repaired with a helicoil like setup, but its expensive.

My sons Aurora has a Northstar, and other than the fact it leaks oil, maybe a quart every 800 miles, its been a good engine and a good car. The only thing the engine needed was a water pump.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The Northstar is a good engine, and yes, it was state of the art when it came out. I don't know where they leak from, normal gaskets I think. Just because its considered a "premium" engine doesn't mean its more immune to leaks than others. Just from what I've read on the internet, the only weak spot is if they overheat. Like most engines, water pumps will fail, and if you run a Northstar hot, they will pull the head bolts out of the aluminum block. This can be repaired with a helicoil like setup, but its expensive.

My sons Aurora has a Northstar, and other than the fact it leaks oil, maybe a quart every 800 miles, its been a good engine and a good car. The only thing the engine needed was a water pump.

My grandfather owned a Dodge/Chrysler dealership for about 40 years. He sold to his brother on a Friday and on the following Monday me and him went and bought a new Caddy with a Northstar, a Model A, and a Ford F250 cash. This was in about 1988 or 1990, can't remember. Took a while to negotiate the Model A. He was just cheap. He always wanted all three but could not have them other brands and sell Dodges and Chrysler with a strait face.

Anyways, it drove him nuts for the year he owned it that the Northstar used oil. He tried everything but the only thing that slowed down consumption was Kendall Motor Oil.

He traded that caddy for a Lincoln and drove multiple Lincoln's till he could no longer get a license.

Chris

 

[don45640]

Hey,my òl Granpappy Wright was smart too! He had a Plymouth way back when...but he lived up on a steep mountain road.He got tired of barely makin'it,so he put a Ford V-8 in the Plymouth and solved the problem.LOL! ^)

My grandfather owned a Dodge/Chrysler dealership for about 40 years. He sold to his brother on a Friday and on the following Monday me and him went and bought a new Caddy with a Northstar, a Model A, and a Ford F250 cash. This was in about 1988 or 1990, can't remember. Took a while to negotiate the Model A. He was just cheap. He always wanted all three but could not have them other brands and sell Dodges and Chrysler with a strait face.

Anyways, it drove him nuts for the year he owned it that the Northstar used oil. He tried everything but the only thing that slowed down consumption was Kendall Motor Oil.

He traded that caddy for a Lincoln and drove multiple Lincoln's till he could no longer get a license.

Chris

 

[TomSeller]

Actually my Northstar does not leak oil at all, it consumes it. Those engines according to an old internet posting I saw once were made with a more coarse bore to carry oil on the cylinder walls more like a racing engine. Combined with lighter fitting rings resulted in a little oil usage. Add little white haired ladies driving their Cadillacs to the grocery store and back day after day didn't help many of them. I follow something I saw from one of the original Cadillac engineers who said to do about 10 cycles of WOT in 2nd gear to redline, including full deceleration. The deceleration was supposed to lift the rings out of the seats to reduce the carry over oil. It seemed to work for me, cutting oil consumption considerably. The trouble is more finding an empty highway where you can do this often enough. I don't consider this a fault at all with the engine. They run good.

 

[lostcause]

where i live, i don't think there is really any benefit from running synthetic on the thought that it will make your engine last longer. as others have noted, engines and lubricants are so much better than they used to be, and they will run for as long as you want (barring freak exceptions) as long as they are maintained reasonably well. around here you will almost always lose a vehicle to corrosion before you do an engine failure. if rust isn't the cause of death, then the transmission will likely be it. when the engine is lost, it is usually due to a broken timing belt on an interference engine.

even with that, i'm now running synthetic oil in my 3 main vehicles:

my car came from the factory with synthetic (mobil 1) and now gets a yearly (~6k miles) change with amsoil (it was the easiest to find on the shelf that met the gm-ll-a-025 spec).

i have a ton dump with a duramax that i always ran conventinoal rotella 15-40 in until one cold morning when i was headed out to plow. it was really cold and i wasn't sure it would start, though it did. what it didn't do was pump the oil. it was like hitting the jackpot on a slot machine when you see all the flashing lights and bells going off when you have zero oil pressure. after losing a couple hours due to plugging the block heater in i started going with synthetic rotella 5-40 i think? i haven't had a problem in the cold since.

my other truck was the last to switch to synthetic on. i figured i'd try it, since it's a cheap change at 6 quarts. what i noticed was that it was more consistent in the cold. when standing outside of the vehicles in the cold you do't get any indication of a labored engine with the synthetic. on the cold days it just didn't sound as smooth with conventional oil.

i'm not sold on the extreme long oil change intervals yet. that may just be because i grew up on the 3k change pattern. my reasoning is that the oil isn't just a lubricant, but it's a filter too. no matter how good the filter is, the oil is bound to pick up some contaminants, not to mention any moisture or fuel that gets into the system. i do my changes at 5-6k now, which you can get by with on conventional oils.